Why the current GOP leadership is un-American and cowardly .....

[nat4900]

That has nothing to do with the behaviors of people like you, which is what I am discussing.

Well, MY behavior will not get us all killed......but Trump's behavior might....See the difference?
Get off that ******* fence.

 

[Mac1958]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode, everyone on the other side is Hitler, the world is ending because of the other side.

We need to somehow marginalize the lunatics. I have no ideas on how to do that.
.

I agree. I try humor, but it seems thy lost their funny bone.

And the folks in the middle that can see clearly? We are demonized for trying to bail out the sinking ship by both sides, aren't we?

Who knows. We may be as nuts as the wingers.

What I'm pretty sure is, this direction ain't good.
.

meh, I've been pretty sure most of my life that the people don't have much control over the direction anyhow.

I read how the folks in S. America and Europe think our elections are a joke anyhow, so I don't let it get me to upset.

The real nail in the coffin was when the parties colluded to keep the debates restricted and kicked the League of Women Voters from hosting them.

It's been all down hill from there.

The party bosses and lobbyists choose who we get to vote for. There is no real choice. The system seems to be rigged to produce what big interests and lobbyists want. It's a mess.

Yeah, 'fraid so. Add to that the fact that the lunatics are running the asylum.

There are changes we can make to the system that would mitigate some of this, but we're clearly more concerned with who the Kardashian girls are banging this week.
.

 

[Auld Phart]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

you've got a point, gnat

and I loved the way Pelosi and Schumer took him to task at the meeting yesterday.

 

[Mac1958]

That has nothing to do with the behaviors of people like you, which is what I am discussing.

Well, MY behavior will not get us all killed......but Trump's behavior might....See the difference? Get off that ******* fence.

I'm not on a fence. In fact, I address that in my sig, in detail.

Nothing of substance can be improved until people like you are somehow culturally marginalized.
.

 

[nat4900]

you've got a point, gnat

and I loved the way Pelosi and Schumer took him to task at the meeting yesterday.

To take part of the insanity is to condone it......It is NOT up to the democrat minority to take action.

 

[Auld Phart]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode, everyone on the other side is Hitler, the world is ending because of the other side.

We need to somehow marginalize the lunatics. I have no ideas on how to do that.
.

NOPE......this is beyond mere politics.....Trump is showing CLEAR signs of INSANITY and DEMENTIA.

Trump is showing CLEAR signs of INSANITY and DEMENTIA.

only signs of that I see are in you

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?" is a false statement.

Nothing of the sort is happening, only the reverse.

What is happening is the cultural fence sitters (think Mac1958 et al) are being marginalized, and the chasm grows between Trump/supporters and the rest of America.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

 

[Mac1958]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Adults compromise through communication, patience, reason, humility and honesty.

It troubles me that I even have to say that.
.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

Nothing wrong with binary thinking.

Realpolitik: "a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations" seems to belie the thinking in terms of only black and white.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Adults compromise through communication, patience, reason, humility and honesty.

It troubles me that I even have to say that..

Which adult attribute do you consider Trump employees in his day to day tweets?

 

[Mac1958]

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Adults compromise through communication, patience, reason, humility and honesty.

It troubles me that I even have to say that..

Which adult attribute do you consider Trump employees in his day to day tweets?

Couldn't tell you. They're an ongoing source of embarrassment for me.

What I do know, is that the Democrats are going to put out just enough effort to work with him so that they can say they "tried", and not one ounce more.

Because that's what partisan politicians do, on both ends. This is about political advantage, not compromise.

If we can't agree on something obvious and fundamental, there's no reason to continue here.
.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

You precisely defined his predecessor.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

No, you're just a partisan hack. Both parties aren't worthy of occupying the bottom of an outhouse.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

You precisely defined his predecessor.

And himself.

 

[PredFan]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Well, they are certainly cowardly, but not for the bull shit reasons you claim. We conservatives have been complaining about the lack of a spine in the GOP for a while now. That’s why we voted Trump into office.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Not exactly true. There are fundamental differences between two diametrically opposed philosophies - one traditional American, the other totalitarian Euro-socialist - for which there can be no compromise.

Oh, I see plenty of manic, binary thinking from both ends.

"No compromise". There it is. And it just doesn't work in a large, complicated republic.
.

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

The President of the United States in 2017 is a megalomaniac (Defined: a person who is obsessed with their own power).

For those who think this post and comment is funny, I suggest they consider his behavior with this definition of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Adults compromise through communication, patience, reason, humility and honesty.

It troubles me that I even have to say that..

Which adult attribute do you consider Trump employees in his day to day tweets?

Couldn't tell you. They're an ongoing source of embarrassment for me.

What I do know, is that the Democrats are going to put out just enough effort to work with him so that they can say they "tried", and not one ounce more.

Because that's what partisan politicians do, on both ends. This is about political advantage, not compromise.

If we can't agree on something obvious and fundamental, there's no reason to continue here.
.

If you mean to continue to post on this thread or message board, that's up to you. I make an effort to define my use of words in the context of the moment.

First of all I disagree on the motives you attribute to partisan pols. The first and overriding goal of most pols is to protect their job. That's obvious. Congress critters want the nicer offices and the perks that go along with whatever they are told to do by the leadership of their party.

That said, one must take a stand on fundamental issues and not simply parrot something they've heard or read from a single source, or sources which parrot each other (like members of Congress or members of the executive).

Consider Carried Interest and Trump's promise to drain the swamp, and what's in the tax bill Trump claims will be the biggest tax cut for the middle class, and not benefit him and other 1%ers.

For the record, and what ought to be no surprise to anyone, Trump lied.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The lack of response to Trump's increasing insanity by the current GOP leadership is mostly based on fear that the orange clown will turn on them with his tweets and schoolyard bullying.....BUT, even more cowardly, the wish to get reelected and satisfy their donors in passing tax "reform," may be the main reason why they are silent, choosing to sacrifice the welfare of this country for a few more years in power.

Perhaps IF these cowards can "boast" over passing the tax reforms, they will finally wake the **** up and stand up to this madness..........We may survive the upcoming royal screwing of the middle class from these tax give-away, BUT, we may not survive this thoroughly flawed scourge of an administration.

This issue is WAY BEYOND partisanship......and history (if someone is left to write it) will label these cowards with infamy. (Take notice,McConnell and Ryan, et al.)

Did it ever occur to you that the more you whine, the stronger support for him grows?

What if all the liberals tried something different?

What if the MSM tried supporting him? I think if CNN and the Democrats started supporting him and working with him, his supporters would probably turn on him. . .





A few months ago, I thought, hmmm. . . If Sanders ran in 2020, surely he would slaughter Trump. Now? I'm not so sure.

I read an article recently, and it was not encouraging.

Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say
Read the comments on this article. It would seem that folks are quite happy with the current president, at least over a possible Democratic challenger?

It's just not going to happen.

Both sides are currently locked into manic hyperbole mode, everyone on the other side is Hitler, the world is ending because of the other side.

We need to somehow marginalize the lunatics. I have no ideas on how to do that.
.

NOPE......this is beyond mere politics.....Trump is showing CLEAR signs of INSANITY and DEMENTIA.

It is your duty as a human being to at least pick up a tire iron and March against the white house to remove Trump from office.

 

[nat4900]

How does one compromise with Donald Trump? He even ignores his own appointees when they don't do what he wants them to do.

I remember how some "sane" republicans stated after a few months of Trump's irrational stupidity that we shouldn't worry that folks like Kelly or Mathis (the generals in his cabinet) will control his insane outburst....

Well, that has NOT happened, they are turning out to also be cowards, choosing their cushy positions over the welfare of this country.......It seems that most of these folks took an oath to Trump..... and NOT the Constitution.

 

[PredFan]

Thank God for President Donald Trump. He is what this country needed and has us on the path to returning to greatness again.