Why teachers need more pay

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Good teachers gut fucked because principals administrators and presidents enjoy bloated union salaries.

Good teachers get fucked because tenured bad teachers have priority and seniority.

Good teachers get fucked because they are not related to, nor are they friends of, nor do they go to the same church as... tenured administrative teachers.

Today's schools are fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.

The good teachers are cast out for wont of unionized perverts, lesbians, Liberal, family and friend.

Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing. Principals and administrators are NOT part of any unions and their salaries re determined by the school boards.

What the heck is tenured administrative teacher?

The remainder of your post is your personal biases coming out.

Bloated union salaries for school administrators are a reality. The school board, city hall, and the union are all the same. All politics is local, and you can't fight city hall. That's what we were all taught as schoolchildren.

Unionized perverts and lesbians? Oh, yeah. It's the kiddie-fiddlers and the cop-callers. That city hall political circle is all sewn up so tight, there is no peaceful or polite or "legal" way to crack that system, horrible as it is.

Try reading this slowly and let it sink in!

I was a union member as a teacher, but accepted an administrative position as an assistant principal. I could no longer be represented by the union, nor would any of my salary and benefits be negotiated by them. I don't know where you get your information, but I have a Master's degree in Educational Leadership where we studied the educational systems nationwide.

Administrators are NOT represented by the teachers unions ANYWHERE!

 

[justinacolmena]

a Master's degree in Educational Leadership where we studied the educational systems nationwide.

That's part of the system, cynical as it is. It's the uniformitarian, totalitarian, communist dictatorahip-of-the-proletariat approach to education in America.

School boards (as elected) don't have have any real power, and certainly not to buck the union. It's the multitude of mandatory committee-driven "norms" and "standards" that have somehow acquired the force of federal law even though they were never passed by Congress.

The real power is in those national conferences and conventions that educators with degrees such as yours attend when they are invited.

Administrators are NOT represented by the teachers unions ANYWHERE!

Probably not when you're their direct supervisor, although I tend to think of "administrators" as secretaries and office assistants who do not necessarily outrank teachers.

Even so, you are right in that it is the teachers themselves who band together, unionize, and politicize directly with parents who happen to be constituents. There's a school bond issue on the ballot. It's a must-pass because the teachers need a raise. And guess who's counting the ballots at the local election polling place which just happens to be the local elementary or middle school.

A veritable political perpetual motion machine.

 

[SweetSue92]

I am a 7th grade social studies teacher in a middle school. So let me lay something to rest here. K-12 teachers do not (usually) teach classes during the summer. That much is true, but being a teacher is hardly a part time job. I arrive at school at 7am and I leave at 4pm. I take a 30-45 minute lunch. I don't get any other breaks during the day. I'm lucky if I even get a pee break because you can't leave a bunch of 7th graders alone or chaos ensues. On average I work about 10 hours a week extra outside of my normal 7-4. Our school year is 35 weeks. That is 350 extra hours worked beyond a weekly 40. That is 8.75 extra weeks of work done during the regular school year which is a week shy of 3 months. On top of that I have to do continuing education courses so that I am still teaching relevant information. It is a full time job, but it is not structured around a 12 month, 40 hour work week as most jobs are structured. I work just as many hours in a year as most Americans, if not more. On top of that, though I do accrue vacation leave I never get to use it because it means falling behind in my lesson plans. For this job, I get paid about 52k per year. I contribute $200 a month to my health premiums and 6% of my total salary to a PERS account that will never actually pay me anything even if I ever actually get to retire. Furthermore, teaching is hard work. I don't get to check out in my little cube and read facebook when no one is looking. When you are a teacher you are always ON. There is no downtime.

Where I have to agree with some of the comments is in regard to cronyism and tenure. Nepotism and cronyism absolutely exists and is a problem in education. Upper level administrators are often completely out of touch with teachers and promotions do not always go to those to who deserve them. The emphasis on seniority over talent or innovation absolutely needs to change. Far too many teachers are resting on their 10 year old lesson plans and do the minimum to get by. It is total BS. Those factors and the fact that overall education in the US is dreadfully underfunded contributes to poor teachers and poor outcomes. We do need to pay our teachers more, we need to give them more autonomy in the classroom and more respect from everyone. If we do we can attract the best talent and keep them.

To those who whine "It must be nice to have summers off" all I can say is go to college, or back to college and get teaching credentials. There is a national shortage of K-12 teachers. Especially in math and science. You too can have summers off!

We all work hard, and off the clock.

Do you get a pension after so many years of work or does the school put money into your savings retirement of 401k? Do you get summers off? That’s shit we don’t get.

There is really nothing to argue here--the market will work. And the market IS working. Teachers are deciding, in pretty big numbers that the job many of them adore is no longer worth the energy, effort, time, sweat, tears and etc. for the money they are being paid.

Good luck, America, replacing us with the money you are willing to pay. I mean that's it. Many on this board have already admitted it's Lord of the Flies for them--they will pay dearly for their own children's education; nothing at all for anyone else's.

So there we are. And the decay continues apace.

Actually I think we will still be able to find good teachers and you and my sister in law prove teachers will complain no matter how much we pay you.

My sister in law makes $70k, will get a pension and gets healthcare and summers off. She complains.

So some girl who graduates high school has to decide what she’s capable of doing. What will she do if not be a teacher? You act like teachers can just easily go do something else. If they could have why did they go into teaching?

Maybe they can be hair dressers but that doesn’t pay $50k and you don’t get summers off and no pension after 30 years. So you tell me what those women are going to do instead of teach.

Many of my colleagues have left teaching and gone into lucrative careers. ??? It seems that you're assuming "those women" are stupid. If they're stupid, I don't know--they shouldn't be teachers in the first place. But if they're not stupid, believe me, in this economy, there are places and people who will hire them.

Now I ask you: how do you expect to find smart, good teachers if those smart, good teachers can go into lucrative careers elsewhere, work much fewer hours year round even if they DO NOT get summers off, set their own bathroom breaks and schedules during the day, not have to grade papers and etc? Do not get me wrong, I adore teaching. I've been at this for 25 years. I just want to know how YOU propose to work this out.

Do tell us, Mr. Genius. Maybe these really smart, savvy women would love to work 12 hour days for 35K a year and buy school supplies for their students from that money and work second jobs for 30 years with dwindling pensions out of the goodness of their hearts--is that how you figure it?

They can’t go into lucrative careers. Teaching children doesn’t translate into the business world.

I know lawyers and engineers can go into business and find very lucrative jobs but I’m not sure what you think an English or history teacher is qualified to do?

What are some of these lucrative jobs you are talking about?

Companies are still only hiring people who have experience in the job in which they are being hired to do. That means companies aren’t hiring teachers to be accounting, hr, it, quality, sales, marketing, etc. you wouldn’t know what you were doing.

I know people who have done it in the state in which we live. Sales. Making bank.

 

[SweetSue92]

guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation.....throwing more $$$ will not produce better teachers /education.....

proper vetting is the answer.....



~S~

I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.

Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.

Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.

Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.

And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.

That's great--let's tap teachers out at 50K a year for all we do and see what kind of teachers we get. And make us then contribute to our own health benefits and pensions too.

You can't escape "you get what you pay for" and that's that. You get what you pay for, all the way around. Always and ever. And young people know it, and that's why they're not going into teaching. And although I love teaching down to my baby toenail, I don't blame them, not one little bit.

 

[SweetSue92]

as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.

There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.

I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.

A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions

Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.

That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.

My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.

She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.

What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period

I guarantee you would be exhausted after three days in my job put together. You would be exhausted and you would wonder how on earth I do it, day after day, week, after week, month after month, year after year put together.

By noon today, on this day, today, I will have taught 100 children. 100 children will have come through my door, I will have been by myself, on my feet delivering instruction. By noon. TODAY. That's half my day.

You couldn't do it. Again I say: Wednesday of this week you would be dragging your sorry self to the couch thinking, "How on earth does Sue do this."

I'd put money on it. You have no idea. None.

 

[sealybobo]

as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.

There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.

I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.

A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions

Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.

That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.

My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.

She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.

What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period

So because you attended High School as a student, you believe that you have special insight into the hardships (or lack thereof) of the teachers who taught you while you were there, of what their jobs entailed?

LOL. Great argument there bud.

If you come watch me do my job for 200 days you’d get an idea how hard my job is right? Well we watched you teachers for 13 years and yea, not hard.

That’s why a lot of under achieving women, and unkotare, decided to go into teaching. You couldn’t find something lucrative in business that you wanted to do or you were capable of doing.

And on top of that you found that teaching was harder than you thought so you all admit you aren’t even capable of doing your job well. It’s hard! Waaah

 

[sealybobo]

Is someone trying to say that sales is hard or stressful? Laughable.

Don’t make your numbers and you get fired. Ten percent turnover every year. Do ten percent of teachers get fired every year? Nope. You are protected by unions.

Apparently you are either a great salesperson or you don’t know what you are talking about.

Hey teachers! The answers are all there in the book. You don’t even have to take the test. Just give it and grade the kids.

I know teachers are glorified babysitters.

 

[sealybobo]

guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation.....throwing more $$$ will not produce better teachers /education.....

proper vetting is the answer.....



~S~

I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.

Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.

Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.

Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.

And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.

That's great--let's tap teachers out at 50K a year for all we do and see what kind of teachers we get. And make us then contribute to our own health benefits and pensions too.

You can't escape "you get what you pay for" and that's that. You get what you pay for, all the way around. Always and ever. And young people know it, and that's why they're not going into teaching. And although I love teaching down to my baby toenail, I don't blame them, not one little bit.

You’re just not worth more than $50k a year. You’re a fucking public school teacher. I’d be all for doing away with public schools and go 100% private.

Oh, and you make more than private school teachers. How do private schools find good teachers? My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.

 

[sealybobo]

as if any skill or experience is necessary to be some sales monkey. The only real requirement for sales is a lack of self-esteem.

There was a girl doing my job before they replaced her with me. She sold $40k a month I sell $150k a month. I think she went back to school to become a teacher. Something she can handle.

I have never seen any other profession complain about how hard their job is as I hear from public school teachers. It’s amazing. We all went to high school so none of us are buying it. It’s just not that hard of a job.

A nurse is a hard job and they don’t get summers off or pensions

Who here thinks teaching is harder than their job? And do you make more or less than a teacher.

That’s a tough question because I’m doing great now so I’d say my job is easier and I make more than teachers but when the economy tanks I can lose my job and I don’t get summers off or a pension.

My sister in law makes $70k and she will get a pension when she retires. And she gets summers off? Shit I’d take that.

She too talks about how hard her job is but she’s never been fired and the rest of us work just as hard so we don’t want to hear your whining. And you make as much as you should.

What do you think a teacher should make? $30-$60k. Period

I guarantee you would be exhausted after three days in my job put together. You would be exhausted and you would wonder how on earth I do it, day after day, week, after week, month after month, year after year put together.

By noon today, on this day, today, I will have taught 100 children. 100 children will have come through my door, I will have been by myself, on my feet delivering instruction. By noon. TODAY. That's half my day.

You couldn't do it. Again I say: Wednesday of this week you would be dragging your sorry self to the couch thinking, "How on earth does Sue do this."

I'd put money on it. You have no idea. None.

Oh please. Wash rinse repeat.

Ok everyone open your books to page 12. We’re going to talk about something I’ve talked about for 12 years.

I could do your job easy. Oh, and just take a seat. Maybe you need a chair?

 

[Likkmee]

Teachers are fucked for the immediate " racism" spoken any time a 14 y.o. chimp in the fifth grade tell he/she to fuck off. She recommends suspension and the coward principle says "no way---it'll be in the papers by sunup? Lil 6'3" Tyrone rolls in with a pocket full of kryp the next mornin' and says " tole ya so byatch".

 

[sparky]

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.

sure....

the irony being your nephew and his ivy school buds will be paying us blues more than they make for our services

~S~

 

[sealybobo]

guffaw...boulderdash.... poppycock....cachinnation.....throwing more $$$ will not produce better teachers /education.....

proper vetting is the answer.....



~S~

I don't disagree. But if you're going to expect vetting you're expecting a better class of teacher. For a better class, you need to pay more. This is basic market principles. Not necessarily in my state; at the top of the pay scale we're fairly well paid. But to pay someone $35,000/year to teach is ridiculous.

Not bad for a kid right out of school. If you are good that should go up to $50k a year max. Plenty of women will opt to be a teacher for that rather than go into the business world.

Which by the way. Most women I know who are in hr, accounting, IT, marketing, etc... they only make about $50k a year. And they don’t get nearly as many days off as you do.

Maybe $60k for the best teachers. $70k for vice principal and $80k for principals. Any more is overpaying government workers. If you want to get rich don’t go into teaching.

And do you guys still get pensions? You shouldn’t. 401k like the rest of us.

LOL, someone is hella salty. Were you born this way or was the trauma of getting jumped by female teachers what caused it?

Entry-level teachers making less than 45K is insanity. I say this as someone who is making 65+K within 3 years of finishing my undergrad degree in a technical field. Teaching is hard, contrary to what a lot of dimwits think.

How do you know it’s hard? Because they tell you it is? Teachers are the biggest complainers about their job. No other profession complains so much that their job is hard and they are underpaid.

You are a public employees. It’s a government job. Go into the private sector.

 

[sealybobo]

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.

sure....

the irony being your nephew and his ivy school buds will be paying us blues more than they make for our services

~S~

Huh?

 

[Marion Morrison]

Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.

Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit. With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?

Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?

Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works. The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent. The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.

Public school unions are no different. They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators. They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost. In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.

Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural. It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.

That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve. I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside. With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met. You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.

Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with. I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though. By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits. They're just doing their jobs.

The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions. Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts. You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks? The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's. Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker! Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.

Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.

Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit. With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?

Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?

Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works. The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent. The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.

Public school unions are no different. They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators. They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost. In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.

Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural. It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.

That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve. I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside. With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met. You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.

Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with. I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though. By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits. They're just doing their jobs.

The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions. Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts. You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks? The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's. Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker! Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.

Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.

I agree. And just like at my work none of us know what each other make.

So it’s up to you to go convince the principle that you are worth a raise. Don’t walk in with all your fellow teachers and demand you all get a raise. Most of you don’t deserve a raise. Especially the ones who are complaining how hard it is. Maybe it is too hard for you. More money isn’t going to make you better or the job easier.

 

[sparky]

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.

sure....

the irony being your nephew and his ivy school buds will be paying us blues more than they make for our services

~S~

Huh?

Can U hear me laughing sealy?

~S~

 

[sparky]

Yeah, gotta agree with Mr H on this one.

Regardless of how you feel about unions, the public school unions have made a mess of shit. With a job as important as educating our youngest generation, why would we want our educators given consideration of anything -but- performance?

Why would we allow them to base employment decisions on seniority?

Also, you look at how the basic union dynamic works. The union negotiates with the employer to get higher pay, more benefits, and less requirements for the workers they represent. The employer concedes what is required to continue to operate, and the difference is passed onto the consumers.

Public school unions are no different. They aren't representing the children, they're representing the teachers and administrators. They fight to get higher pay and lower expectations for the educators and the consumers are the ones that have to eat the cost. In this case the consumers are the taxpayers and the kids.

Now, in my view, most of our larger educational issues in this country are primarily cultural. It doesn't matter how much you improve the school system, when our popular culture idolizes ignorance and persecutes, as nerds and dorks, anyone with intellectual values and pass times, we're gonna end up with a lot of willfully ignorant dipshits.

That said. . . Ban union seniority rules in public schools and start demanding more accountability and see if shit doesn't improve. I don't know if you realize it, but upping the salary will only put better teachers in the classrooms if the shittier teachers are forced to move aside. With seniority, that latter requirement won't be met. You'll just be paying the current batch of fuck-ups more money to continue fucking up with impunity.

Also, whoever said that we should stop spending so much on the buildings, I also agree with. I wouldn't put the fault on the contractors, though. By definition, a business is looking to maximize its profits. They're just doing their jobs.

The problem is that we've given our government officials too much discretion in how much to blow on individual contracts and there's too little transparency to their spending decisions. Make it harder for criminal enterprises to buy off political contracts and, VOILA!, less criminal enterprises will buy off political contracts. You know why you've never seen a toilet seat in anyone's house that you know that cost 650 bucks? The same reason you've never seen a coffee maker in your friend's kitchen that cost 7 G's. Cuz regular people who have to spend their -own- money don't pay fucking 650 for a toilet seat or 7 G's for a fuckin coffee maker! Throwing money at a problem doesn't fix shit if the people responsible for distributing that money have the integrity and spending habits of meth addicts.

Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.

interesting....~S~

 

[sealybobo]

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in Michigan and most of those kids are going to go off to Ivy League schools. Most of your kids will graduate to become blue collar workers.

sure....

the irony being your nephew and his ivy school buds will be paying us blues more than they make for our services

~S~

Huh?

Can U hear me laughing sealy?

~S~

I just don’t understand what you mean. They’ll be paying you more than they make for your services? What does that mean?

The kid my nephew brought to play basketball yesterday is going to play football at Harvard. My nephew is going to go to Michigan state university.

My nephew will make more than his teachers. If not what a waste of money

 

[Marion Morrison]

Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.

interesting....~S~

And correct.

 

[sparky]

Nothing taxpayer-funded should have a union, ever.

interesting....~S~

And correct.

well, i'd ask what your validation may be MM.....~S~