Why Shouldn't we Think Deathboards weren't a Part of Obama Health Care Plan?

[Cold Fusion38]

And I am totally FOR assisted "suicide". I would MUCH rather die while I still have the ability to recognise my family and am not living 24/7 in agonising pain. Give people the drugs to keep their pain managable and then give them a MASSIVE dose when they are ready to put thier pain for themselves and their families behind them.

 

[Charles Stucker]

And I am totally FOR assisted "suicide".

The Final step is the one I find appalling. It is also the step which would appeal to a bureaucrat as a way to keep in budget. A kind of Final Solution to the problem of mounting health care costs.
Who says Obama isn't reaching out to the (far far) right for ideas?

 

[Care4all]

And I am totally FOR assisted "suicide". I would MUCH rather die while I still have the ability to recognise my family and am not living 24/7 in agonising pain. Give people the drugs to keep their pain managable and then give them a MASSIVE dose when they are ready to put thier pain for themselves and their families behind them.

Well, the person wanted to do such, can do such without a Doctor's help...

I don't want doctors being in the business of killing people. My whole life Doctors are known to save lives and this is how it should be...I will not trust my own doctor's advice on medical treatment If I know that he has no problem killing people that are sick...they take an oath that in my opinion prevents them from doing such, and I do not believe we should change the root meaning of that Hippocratic oath after the thousands of years of having it for doctors....

Care

 

[nodoginnafight]

And I am totally FOR assisted "suicide". I would MUCH rather die while I still have the ability to recognise my family and am not living 24/7 in agonising pain. Give people the drugs to keep their pain managable and then give them a MASSIVE dose when they are ready to put thier pain for themselves and their families behind them.

Well, the person wanted to do such, can do such without a Doctor's help...

I don't want doctors being in the business of killing people. My whole life Doctors are known to save lives and this is how it should be...I will not trust my own doctor's advice on medical treatment If I know that he has no problem killing people that are sick...they take an oath that in my opinion prevents them from doing such, and I do not believe we should change the root meaning of that Hippocratic oath after the thousands of years of having it for doctors....

Care

The only sticking point for me is the one that has been misrepresented so badly - that is - who makes the call.

The provision in the bill would reimburse doctors for a counseling session in which the family doctor sat down with members of the family and gave them information THEY could use to make their decision.

Many insurance policies cover this - but now, that resource could be denied to many families who are struggling with one of the toughest decisions they will ever have to make.

I don't care what OP or anyone else chooses to believe - some folks are obviously very comfortable making up their minds with little or no information. FORCING others to do the same is inhumane imho.

 

[Charles Stucker]

The only sticking point for me is the one that has been misrepresented so badly - that is - who makes the call.

That is the sticking point I also wish to emphasize - once bureaucrats start making the call it can go SOOOOO wrong as to be terrifying. Everyone over 21 should be familiar enough with bureaucratic nightmares in their own life to realize what I mean; unless you are so wealthy that you never had to deal with corrupt property tax assessors, university officials,state officials of whatever stripe, etc. Those who have should be alarmed at the prospect of handing control of our lives over to faceless clock-punchers.

 

[Care4all]

And I am totally FOR assisted "suicide". I would MUCH rather die while I still have the ability to recognise my family and am not living 24/7 in agonising pain. Give people the drugs to keep their pain managable and then give them a MASSIVE dose when they are ready to put thier pain for themselves and their families behind them.

Well, the person wanted to do such, can do such without a Doctor's help...

I don't want doctors being in the business of killing people. My whole life Doctors are known to save lives and this is how it should be...I will not trust my own doctor's advice on medical treatment If I know that he has no problem killing people that are sick...they take an oath that in my opinion prevents them from doing such, and I do not believe we should change the root meaning of that Hippocratic oath after the thousands of years of having it for doctors....

Care

The only sticking point for me is the one that has been misrepresented so badly - that is - who makes the call.

The provision in the bill would reimburse doctors for a counseling session in which the family doctor sat down with members of the family and gave them information THEY could use to make their decision.

Many insurance policies cover this - but now, that resource could be denied to many families who are struggling with one of the toughest decisions they will ever have to make.

I don't care what OP or anyone else chooses to believe - some folks are obviously very comfortable making up their minds with little or no information. FORCING others to do the same is inhumane imho.

As I wrote previously, I agree, and the lies told about this provision was a disgrace...I hope the living will/medical directives counseling once every 5 years makes it back in to a final bill....

care

 

[Sinatra]

The Death Panel description was correct. An aggressive description to be sure - but apt.

Obama advisor Robert Reich regarding healthcare for the old and weak...


“We’re going to have to, if you’re very old, we’re not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life to keep you maybe going for another couple of months. It’s too expensive…so we’re going to let you die.”

The Strata-Sphere » Robert Reich, Death Panel Aficionado


Ladies and gentlemen, this line of thought is rampant throughout the Obama administration. The death panel concept is alive and well - it does not have said title of course, but it will be government control over your treatments, aka....DEATH PANELS.

 

[rubberhead]

dumping new patients into the marketplace while mandating maintaining or lowering the current price will result in a shortage. With inelastic commodities (energy, health care) a shortage leads to rationing. perhaps in the form of delays rather than denials, but economics cannot be overcome by compassion. there is a physical limit on how much can be produced. this is a fact. someone will have to decide how the resources will be allocated. perhaps it will be the hospital rather than the government at first, but the fact is that people who are entitled to health care will not get it because the system will not be capable of producing it. By "people that are entitled to it" I mean individuals that can negotiate a satisfactory price with the provider of the service of health care (doctors, hospitals, etc). In most cases, a third party (e.g. insurance company, government program) acts as a middleman in this ugly evil process that creates the opportunity for the service that is health care to exist as we know it. Whenever a hospital has to decide who to give a liver to or how to distribute scarce vaccines, there is a panel that decides the most judicious way of doing so. You could call them a death panel, but the fact is that ugly decisions need to be made when it comes to scarce resources. So I reiterate, dumping more patients into the system and fixing prices will make basic medicine into a scarce resource and ugly decisions will have to be made. Who do you think will make them?

 

[Care4all]

dumping new patients into the marketplace while mandating maintaining or lowering the current price will result in a shortage. With inelastic commodities (energy, health care) a shortage leads to rationing. perhaps in the form of delays rather than denials, but economics cannot be overcome by compassion. there is a physical limit on how much can be produced. this is a fact. someone will have to decide how the resources will be allocated. perhaps it will be the hospital rather than the government at first, but the fact is that people who are entitled to health care will not get it because the system will not be capable of producing it. By "people that are entitled to it" I mean individuals that can negotiate a satisfactory price with the provider of the service of health care (doctors, hospitals, etc). In most cases, a third party (e.g. insurance company, government program) acts as a middleman in this ugly evil process that creates the opportunity for the service that is health care to exist as we know it. Whenever a hospital has to decide who to give a liver to or how to distribute scarce vaccines, there is a panel that decides the most judicious way of doing so. You could call them a death panel, but the fact is that ugly decisions need to be made when it comes to scarce resources. So I reiterate, dumping more patients into the system and fixing prices will make basic medicine into a scarce resource and ugly decisions will have to be made. Who do you think will make them?

I disagree and you have a "the glass is half full" attitude that is defeatist...there is always a solution and capitalism relies on such...if the demand grows then the SUPPLY GROWS.

We would have to change our focus with medical schools...enlarge their class sizes and schools will happen, more school grants for sharp students to become doctors or nurses, gvt help the building more medical schools...if necessary...so that the cost of becoming a doctor is reduced due to the expansion of our medical schools and enrollment in to such....

the gvt can forgive loans of doctors for 2 years in a clinic working...


just the private hospital market, with more patients would increase in number...some of the ones sitting there that had shut down can be reopened, there are army and airforce facilities with hospitals and clinic areas that were shut down due to base closures that can be bought by the private sector and used...

there are so many things that could relieve the tension of the increased demand....don't let THAT be what stops you from supporting everyone being able to afford Health Care....

And I am not saying this is the bill to support or not support, just saying, the market will adjust to the demand...THAT is a sure thing....and the supply is NOT limited.

care

 

[Care4all]

The Death Panel description was correct. An aggressive description to be sure - but apt.

Obama advisor Robert Reich regarding healthcare for the old and weak...


“We’re going to have to, if you’re very old, we’re not going to give you all that technology and all those drugs for the last couple of years of your life to keep you maybe going for another couple of months. It’s too expensive…so we’re going to let you die.”

The Strata-Sphere » Robert Reich, Death Panel Aficionado


Ladies and gentlemen, this line of thought is rampant throughout the Obama administration. The death panel concept is alive and well - it does not have said title of course, but it will be government control over your treatments, aka....DEATH PANELS.

The measure in the bill was originally writen by a republican representative from Georgia btw, and it was not APT to call this particular measure in the bill a death panel, that was a LIE sinatra, no way to spin it other than a LIE. How robert reich or others are speaking has NOTHING to do with this measure in the House Bill, the House bill was VERY CLEAR on what it was for, and it was NOT for death panels, as said...no matter how you all try to twist and turn it.

It was for a living will consultation, with your own doctor, once every 5 years, if you chose to seek this advice. Simple as that and to bring all of these statements from these other people that have absolutely NOTHING to do with this measure in the bill is being a tad bit intellectually dishonest, no?

Does it concern me, some of the things that have been quoted by those supporting the obama administration? OF COURSE it does...but THAT has NOTHING to do with the LIE being told which is that getting living will advice is a death panel, and THAT is what was said and what the repubs through a fit over and had the senate remove from the bill.

Care

 

[ElmerMudd]

Claiming there are death panels is digusting and digraceful. It puts discussion on a non issue.

The clause could be taken out but it would be a disservice to medical professionals and the American public.

Consulting with your health professional, before you are critically ill, about options is important. Consulting with your health professional when you are critically ill is essential and should be done while the individual has their full faculties.

The consultation allows an individual to make decisions and not burden the family with the decisions. The clause actually puts the decision in the patients hands.

Good doctors do this all the time. The clause allows them to be paid for the consultation.

Sinatra, you and your digusting buddies owe us all an apology. Talk the truth, not partisan lies that actually hurt individuals who believe you.

There are plenty of real issues to criticze the current helth care bill on.

 

[rdean]

Why Shouldn't we Think Deathboards weren't a Part of Obama Health Care Plan?

Because it's stupid to believe something so ridulous?

 

[EriktheRed]

Why Shouldn't we Think Deathboards weren't a Part of Obama Health Care Plan?

Because it's stupid to believe something so ridulous?

I thought it was because Sarah told them about it.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Of course, everyone who has been paying attention knows this is not true. There are presently federally funded health clinics everywhere that provide comprehensive basic medical and dental care on a sliding scale basis, free if your income is low enough.


HRSA - Find a Health Center - Search Page

In addition, a simple google search will show you that there are many privately funded free clinics in every city. Common sense and prudence should dictate that an ER should direct people with non emergency needs to the many free and sliding scale clinics that are set up to serve their needs, and that Congress does not have to overhaul the health care system to get this job done.

great link! but it does not cover heart attacks, kidney failure, car accidents etc, which will still go through the emergency room on these people, no?

The post I was responding to was suggesting that the only option for non emergency care for some one without health insurance is the ER, and that is simply not true. Regardless of whether you have insurance or not, in the cases you mention you will go to an ER and probably require an expensive stay in the hospital. Presently, if you are uninsured but have some assets or income, the hospital and other providers can force you into a repayment plan or seize your assets to pay for your care, but under the Baucus bill, you are guaranteed that you can pay the fairly weak penalty instead buying health insurance if you find that is cheaper, and then sign up for health insurance to pay all your bills once you have your heart attack, etc., freeing you from the need to pay for your own care and forcing everyone else to pay higher health insurance premiums because you decided to wait until you were sick before buying health insurance. Once you get well again, you can, of course, go back to paying just the penalty.

This is the situation that lies at the heart of the criticisms of the Baucus bill issued by the Pricewaterhousecoopers report, commissioned by AHIP and by the Oliver Wyman report commissioned by the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association. both reports argue that since the reforms, accepting everyone at standard rates, automatic disability waiver of premiums and caps on out of pocket expenses, will tend to substantially drive health insurance premiums up, the bill must also force healthy people who will cost little to insure to participate in order to offset these increases, and the weakened penalties in the Baucus bill will not provide sufficient incentive for them to do this and therefore health insurance premiums will significantly increase under this bill.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/PWC Report on Costs - Final.pdf

http://www.bcbs.com/issues/uninsure...pact-of-Healthcare-Reform-on-Premiums-pdf.pdf

Really? Try going into one of those immediate care places....MONEY UP FRONT! I happen to know cause I didn't want to spend the money right then but I had to anyway.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Well, if Sarah said it was so . . .

bwahahahahahahahah!

 

[Cold Fusion38]

It really sucked cuz I really wanted to keep a few $$ in my pocket since I had lost my job recently. Good thing I got on seasonal temp and once they see how I work I will get a full time perm job with one of the best employers in the country. I AM FREAKING JAZZED!!!

 

[nodoginnafight]

Claiming there are death panels is digusting and digraceful. It puts discussion on a non issue.

The clause could be taken out but it would be a disservice to medical professionals and the American public.

Consulting with your health professional, before you are critically ill, about options is important. Consulting with your health professional when you are critically ill is essential and should be done while the individual has their full faculties.

The consultation allows an individual to make decisions and not burden the family with the decisions. The clause actually puts the decision in the patients hands.

Good doctors do this all the time. The clause allows them to be paid for the consultation.

Sinatra, you and your digusting buddies owe us all an apology. Talk the truth, not partisan lies that actually hurt individuals who believe you.

There are plenty of real issues to criticze the current helth care bill on.

Probably the best post on the issue I've read.

 

[rubberhead]

I disagree and you have a "the glass is half full" attitude that is defeatist...there is always a solution and capitalism relies on such...if the demand grows then the SUPPLY GROWS.

Supply grows only if the price goes up in the short term. In the long run the price should return to previous levels once the new infrastructure is built, but new doctors and hospitals don't just magically appear. Something must drive them to appear. You could think of it as growing pains. You can disagree all you want, but this is the way economics works.

We would have to change our focus with medical schools...enlarge their class sizes and schools will happen, more school grants for sharp students to become doctors or nurses, gvt help the building more medical schools...if necessary...so that the cost of becoming a doctor is reduced due to the expansion of our medical schools and enrollment in to such....

the gvt can forgive loans of doctors for 2 years in a clinic working...

This is exactly what I would suggest. The government should be working on the supply side if the intention is to lower costs. This is why France's health care system is so exemplary.

there are so many things that could relieve the tension of the increased demand....don't let THAT be what stops you from supporting everyone being able to afford Health Care....

And I am not saying this is the bill to support or not support, just saying, the market will adjust to the demand...THAT is a sure thing....and the supply is NOT limited.

I'm not saying that I don't support everyone being able to afford health care. Funny how the argument always comes down to that false dichotomy. I wonder if there is an ulterior motive? What I'm saying is that if you just dump 30 million new patients into the primary care market, then there will be shortages, rationing and difficult decisions will have to be made. Especially since those 30 million have been without health care and will probably require a lot of care. The supply is limited in the short term. In the long term the supply is limited by the price (i.e. revenue for the supply side). Holding prices down artificially will stunt growth. The market will only adjust to demand if it is allowed to do so.