Why is Boston 'terrorism' but not Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine?

[Circe]

After reading this, in my opinion you are a threat to America, and you are an anti-American, and you need to take (self deport) the next boat or plane out of here.. That's my opinion like it or not..

That georgephillip is just a foreign propaganda agent, not a real person, preying on political forums in this country. There are getting to be a lot of them on this forum because it is large and we are in a lot of wars; they always are assigned to spam forums with propaganda when there is a war against the interests of their country or group. I'd say just put him on Ignore: he's not real.

 

[Circe]

Trying to be smart by suggesting that it has to be related somehow to the marathon itself, when in fact it doesn't have to have anything to do with the marathon, only that the intent was to cause as much pain and suffering as possible in the choosing of the target in which they chose. Now what links them to the religion and the terrorism part of it, are their tactics, tools and many other things that the FBI has investigated, and for which will be concluded in the final, so yes Liberals are trying to defend the indefensible on this thread, and that is just soooo sad in the faces of the victims pain and loses in which they incurred since, and/or as a result of.

It is reasonable for us to look deeply into such events as these; we are having a terrible epidemic of mass murders in this country, and it's a mistake to ignore it or misunderstand it. So we are trying to understand it.

You are right that the younger bomber says (or at least so the FBI claims) that they were radicalized by videos of Allawi, who is long since droned to death in the Yemen desert, but apparently his video jihad propaganda lives on. Allawi, born in North Carolina IIRC, is responsible for coaching THREE bomber events, the other two being Hasan at Fort Hood and the Christmas panty bomber who tried to planebomb Detroit in his underpants. Hmmm. Well, whatever works....though it didn't.

I don't think it is bad to try to understand things: I don't think that is "liberal," or that I am a "liberal," or that I am trying to defend the indefensible. Personally, I think throwing bombs into crowds is a pretty awful thing to do and I'm trying to understand it. Can you relate to that, or are you one of these people who have to demonize anyone who doesn't instantly take your point of view about everything?

 

[9MMare]

As an act of jihad or for the 'will of Allah' etc it certainly seems like religious agenda, which we already recognize as terrorism...for example 9/11.

And religion and politics are pretty much the same under some systems, like fundamentalist regimes.

It's (religion) an agenda to further the interests of a group with power and interests beyond the individuals (just like politics) and is not just about an individual who is out for revenge or mentally ill following some psychotic nightmare.

So those are some differences I see and how I would consider the Boston bombing terrorism...because the brother we have seems to have implied this with his statements released so far.

 

[blackcherry]

[

An attempt to intimidate? OK, but for intimidate who, from doing what? What's missing here is a message.

The message is that you have suckered the False Flag carried out by your countrymen .
The Islamophobia hysteria button has been re-greased and now you are conditioned to move into the Chechnya region for you and Russia to separately further your own interests and protect further pipe line options from the Caspian Sea and Kazakhstan into the EU .

 

[beagle9]

These guys did neither of those; the Boston marathon has a public gathering but it's not related in any way to politics, wars, Chechnya, religion or anything else. And not only did they not take responsibility, they did the opposite: they ran and had to be tracked down.

An attempt to intimidate? OK, but for intimidate who, from doing what? What's missing here is a message.

I think it's love of killing people, a staple in the human condition, especially among males. Killing or destroying as best you can people you don't like has forever been a major, major motivation and still is, just look at any edition of Google news or any newspapaper. People kill their children, their wives, their neighbors, the police, everybody they can. If they can't kill them, they injure them, banish them, fire them, destroy them emotionally.

Since dynamite was invented, and gunpowder, it's easy to kill lots of strangers, too, so they do. Men love to kill and need little excuse. Wouldn't any of us destroy most of Group X (choose whatever group you hate) if there were a button you could push? What they need is strong government and custom to keep them from killing, and we're not in a good place that way at this time, obviously.

As for why the Marathon, I note that the older leader -stan guy failed at getting employment and failed at boxing: he just failed all around in what the Marathon runners succeeded at spectacularly. They were pretty much all well off and successful amateur athletes. So he hated them and destroyed them, perhaps, from envy.

Envy. HUGE human motivation to destroy others.

When you say that right now we aren't in a good place, well you said a mouth full there, because being under liberal leadership, and under their dominating influence for far to long now, is definitely not where we want to be in this nation, because it is the very reason you had to make that statement today ((I hope)) you know or someday realize that.

 

[Grandma]

When you say that right now we aren't in a good place, well you said a mouth full there, because being under liberal leadership, and under their dominating influence for far to long now, is definitely not where we want to be in this nation, because it is the very reason you had to make that statement today ((I hope)) you know or someday realize that.

On the contrary, we've become more and more violent as a nation due to the loud, obnoxious voices on the right. No one on that side of the fence wants to admit it but fundamentalist christian rightwingers are VERY similar to fundamentalist rightwing muslims.

 

[beagle9]

Any discussion of what is identified as a terrorist act would benefit from an understanding of the term, which seems to be in short supply here.

The following is straight from the FBI website:

There is no single, universally accepted, definition of terrorism. Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”

No universally accepted definition, certainly, but the U.S. government's way of defining and dealing with terrorism would seem to have some relevance to a discussion about potentially terrorist acts in the U.S., would it not? The above definition is pretty solid by any yardstick.

In this light, when looking at the Boston bombing, Sandy Hook, Tucson, Aurora, etc. it might be good to ask if the violence of those actions were: a) intended to coerce or intimidate the U.S. government or civilian population AND b) were they in furtherance of a political or social objective?

A notable factor in the FBI's definition is the absence of a need for organizational involvement or support. There is no mention of it. Therefore, a terrorist act may be carried out by a lone radical or an organized movement.

Further, the mental health of the individual(s) involved is not a qualifying factor, and is therefore incidental. An insane person can intend to coerce or intimidate a government or it's population in furtherance of a political or social objective as can a person in reasonable control of his/her faculties.

Beyond that, isn't most of the activity in this thread really just people spouting off about what they personally think terrorism is?

Maybe, but why shouldn't we try to define terrorism? It's extremely important as it increases and changes all around us: people are dying, getting their legs cut off, dozens of them! This is really important to figure out.

I like your point about insanity not mattering, at least if they can walk and talk (some crazies are too disabled even to sit up, so they aren't able to do terrorism). That's basically what our criminal justice system has decided after John Hinckley shot Reagan. You might say that was terrorism! Or political assassination --- except he did it to impress Jody Foster only, and it was proved his brain was shrunken in classic schizophrenia. They put Hinckley in a mental hospital for life but stopped accepting insanity defenses, for the most part. I think that works. People can be as crazy as they like, but they still don't get to kill people and get off.


Okay, your necessary terrorism definition says it has to be in furtherance of a political or social objective. But they aren't --- ever, really. What was Hasan's objective in his Fort Hood "Allahu Akbar" shooting? One can't imagine what point it had. What was Timothy McVeigh's objective? What was the Chechen political objective in blowing up a 26.2 mile footrace? None of these acts make any actual SENSE. What are they FOR??

They stand alone. They weren't "for" anything. They weren't supposed to accomplish anything. They were just blowing up for the sake of blowing up, like an Xbox video game.

Useful post of yours, thanks.

Wrong, they always stand for something, and can be linked to something bigger as well, but when we mirandize them as quick as we can under our liberals miss-placed compassion and sympathy for the Devil himself run amuck, then (((ZIP))) instantly their mouths shut up and we lose the high ground in that instant. Now that is the definition of insanity if want to talk about definitions. Are liberals insane by their insane actions taken I wonder?

 

[Circe]

On the contrary, we've become more and more violent as a nation due to the loud, obnoxious voices on the right. No one on that side of the fence wants to admit it but fundamentalist christian rightwingers are VERY similar to fundamentalist rightwing muslims.

Is that true? I don't think so.

Rightwingers talk angrily, but they are not bombing crowds, except for Timothy McVeigh. The psycho shooters have for the most part been either leftwing or too crazy to have politics; and the Occupy violence was all done by leftists. The rest is Muslim jihad violence.

It is not true that rightwingers are committing the violence. That is left, or psychotic, or Muslim, pretty much of it except for Timothy McVeigh. Right? Am I forgetting someone?

For rightwingers to be similar to fundamentalist Islamists, they would have to be bombing crowds, after all, and they are not doing that.

 

[Circe]

... when we mirandize them as quick as we can under our liberals miss-placed compassion and sympathy for the Devil himself run amuck, then (((ZIP))) instantly their mouths shut up and we lose the high ground in that instant. Now that is the definition of insanity if want to talk about definitions. Are liberals insane by their insane actions taken I wonder?

Do you want to make an exception to Constitutional rules just for them?

I thought rightists insisted on following the Constitution? The Miranda Rules are constitutionally protected.

 

[beagle9]

Trying to be smart by suggesting that it has to be related somehow to the marathon itself, when in fact it doesn't have to have anything to do with the marathon, only that the intent was to cause as much pain and suffering as possible in the choosing of the target in which they chose. Now what links them to the religion and the terrorism part of it, are their tactics, tools and many other things that the FBI has investigated, and for which will be concluded in the final, so yes Liberals are trying to defend the indefensible on this thread, and that is just soooo sad in the faces of the victims pain and loses in which they incurred since, and/or as a result of.

It is reasonable for us to look deeply into such events as these; we are having a terrible epidemic of mass murders in this country, and it's a mistake to ignore it or misunderstand it. So we are trying to understand it.

You are right that the younger bomber says (or at least so the FBI claims) that they were radicalized by videos of Allawi, who is long since droned to death in the Yemen desert, but apparently his video jihad propaganda lives on. Allawi, born in North Carolina IIRC, is responsible for coaching THREE bomber events, the other two being Hasan at Fort Hood and the Christmas panty bomber who tried to planebomb Detroit in his underpants. Hmmm. Well, whatever works....though it didn't.

I don't think it is bad to try to understand things: I don't think that is "liberal," or that I am a "liberal," or that I am trying to defend the indefensible. Personally, I think throwing bombs into crowds is a pretty awful thing to do and I'm trying to understand it. Can you relate to that, or are you one of these people who have to demonize anyone who doesn't instantly take your point of view about everything?

No I am not one to demonize for no reason, as I am looking at the bigger picture/puzzle all of the time (backwards and forwards), and I have been putting the pieces together for a long time now, and guess what? Our weakness all leads back to certain ideological ways of thinking, and cultural ways of thinking in which gets us in all this nation into the messes that we get ourselves into anymore.. People know this, but they would rather ignore the facts and lessons learned, and then they try and spin it when the message becomes so clear that they can't hide it anymore, so it is what it is isn't it ? I might be picking on libs for our weakness in some areas, but the pubs are a guilty bunch as well in some other areas like being far to GREEDY when trying to separate themselves by way of money, but leaving many of their own behind in the process, so how STUPID were they to think that they could separate themselves from it all, instead of standing and fighting those things that threatened their ideological views on family, public schooling, health care and a host of other issues affecting them and their children's lives here. What they were becoming was a minority (although a rich minority), but meanwhile many other groups whom hate them and their way of life, took other routes (sometimes sympathizing with foreign enemies of this nation) in order to try and surround them finally, and it appears now that it has worked or that it is working (i.e. an on going process).

 

[georgephillip]

It’s telling to watch phony "liberal" subscribers to this thread like yourself struggle so to keep Islam morally related to other religions.

When a Christian goes out and kills innocent people indiscriminately with a gun it generally has absolutely nothing to do with his Christian religion, but when a Muslim kills innocent people indiscriminately with a bomb it has everything to do with his Islamic religion.

Of course, you already knew all of this, but you chose to lie about it in order to try and display some sense of politically correct superiority. Unfortunately for you, you swung and missed. Better luck next time.

It's also telling to compare how many people died in Twentieth Century political violence at the hands of Muslims vs the Religion of Peace:

"I don’t figure that Muslims killed more than a 2 million people or so in political violence in the entire twentieth century, and that mainly in the Iran-Iraq War 1980-1988 and the Soviet and post-Soviet wars in Afghanistan, for which Europeans bear some blame.

"Compare that to the Christian European tally of, oh, lets say 100 million (16 million in WW I, 60 million in WW II– though some of those were attributable to Buddhists in Asia– and millions more in colonial wars.)"

Terrorism and the other Religions | Informed Comment

After reading this, in my opinion you are a threat to America, and you are an anti-American, and you need to take (self deport) the next boat or plane out of here.. That's my opinion like it or not..

What's your opinion on this:

"Contrary to what is alleged by bigots like Bill Maher, Muslims are not more violent than people of other religions. Murder rates in most of the Muslim world are very low compared to the United States.

"As for political violence, people of Christian heritage in the twentieth century polished off tens of millions of people in the two world wars and colonial repression. This massive carnage did not occur because European Christians are worse than or different from other human beings, but because they were the first to industrialize war and pursue a national model."

Terrorism and the other Religions | Informed Comment

 

[beagle9]

When you say that right now we aren't in a good place, well you said a mouth full there, because being under liberal leadership, and under their dominating influence for far to long now, is definitely not where we want to be in this nation, because it is the very reason you had to make that statement today ((I hope)) you know or someday realize that.

On the contrary, we've become more and more violent as a nation due to the loud, obnoxious voices on the right. No one on that side of the fence wants to admit it but fundamentalist christian rightwingers are VERY similar to fundamentalist rightwing muslims.

Never thought I'd see the day when Christians in America, who want to protect their freedoms gained in America for all these years/decades/centuries now, would be compared to fundamentalist Muslims who want to kill America & Americans, in which I guess that is what you mean by this, where as they being American Christians are bad people now in America, otherwise equally bad as Extreme fundamentalist Muslims whom you say believe pretty much in the same ways now ? So what is it then, do those in this nation whom have no religion or God in which they believe in, look now upon all of this, as being a religious war that is raging on all sides now, and so for those whom are not religious, well they are just getting their innocent little selves caught up in it all now ? Who is actually the thorn that keeps pricking, and then prodding or promoting these bad things would be the better question for all sides to somehow realize. Who is starting the troubles or instigating them, and then running back out of sight and hiding their hand when the troubles start is the thing to get a handle on in this nation, because that is exactly what has been happening.

 

[beagle9]

Oh, and one other note, coercion alone is sometimes not enough. My holding a gun to a hapless victim may be intended as coercion to relieve them of their wallet, but minus some kind of political or social objective, it also falls short of terrorism. I think anybody here would agree that armed robbery could not be stretched into being defined as terrorism. And so the presence of some kind of political or social agenda is an important factor. I re-read my post and realized I was being rather incomplete.

Ok seemingly you have a great understanding of how to separate the acts, and then to define them according to the act as was committed, along with the aftermath investigation involved, so what do you think the Marathon Bombings were to be defined as in your honest opinion ? I say terrorism without a doubt.. What say you according to your seemingly coherent words spoken for and about in it all ?

 

[beagle9]

I keep making that point about gun massacres, that they're not out for "murder" but for "carnage" -- the physical experience of being in a perverse power position. That seems to apply to Harris/Klebold, Lanza, Holmes, and to these guys in Boston, since there's no real point being made to the public and the victims are random.

I'm not sure I can agree that video games are a causality. I'd like to, because it seems to make sense, but data from other places doesn't support it. Having said that though, I can't believe they don't desensitize their users to the "smell" of blood.

That's it --- a "perverse power position," as you say. I'm desperate to find explanatory concepts because we are certainly in an epidemic of these actions and until we have a name, concepts, we cannot think about this problem in any way that makes sense. We are in danger of politicizing something that isn't about politics, perhaps. God knows we've got troubles enough with Muslims rising around the world, but this feels different even when sometimes Muslims DO it.

Have you gotten into video game playing? I have, many hours a week, what can I say. I don't play the male first person shooters like Halo, but I'm playing Assassin's Creed II right now, 55 hours in, and there's a LOT of non-gun violence. It's very, very seductive. Tremendously addictive. I particularly like throwing knives at the roof guards or assassinating using the poison dagger (women's weapon is poison, they say.......). It's training, it's desensitization, I can feel it.

Sure, "perverse power position" is a good term for what I feel and what maybe these mad bombers and shooters feel in real life. Now, I'm not, pray God, ever going to take this feeling of power into real life, unless I'm attacked in my home, but I do think it has a psychological effect, just as Army training does.

I agree, it must have a psychological effect. No, I don't do games virtually at all. Never got the attraction of them. I'll do a word game or a card game but never been interested in that kind. I rarely go to movies at all because I can't sit and ingest violence, even when it's acted. I'm still haunted by a scene I happened across that somebody else was watching on TV when I walked into the hotel room I was sharing, twenty years ago. So that guy was already desensitized enough to sit and watch it. He probably doesn't even remember the scene- it was maybe 30 seconds. But it's still with me.

We get the death culture thrown at us from every angle every day; war, assaults, TV shows, movies, even our dominant religion, which impales a man on a cross. It's inevitable that we get desensitized when we've disconnected ourselves from our own spirit and live on the emotional angst fantasies that inevitably make money for somebody somewhere.

Not about making money but more so about how it's being spent (explain better at the end). Its really more so about this world, and the way that it has been in condition of, and is still in the same condition of right now as we speak, otherwise ever since the Garden of Eden we have seen these things now.. Remember the story of Adam and Eve, and how they were innocent as you wish that you were in life in this post, not knowing the bad things, but only the good things? Well when the serpent beguiled Eve and had her eat from the tree of "knowledge", to then know all things Good & evil, and then she went and had Adam do the same, well here we are till this very day, and it is the very reason we have the good Lord's sacrifice that was made in love for us by his own will in doing so, where as it was the only way to redeem us from our sinful knowledge in which we all have gained upon that day, and it was done in order to get us back to a place where we are bound no more by these things. I am like you, that I would rather not ingest these things into the brain, but the devil will see to it that we have the choice to do so in front of us, then it does become a choice, and it appears in these latter days that it is a choice in which many these days are failing to make the right one on. I am glad you are appalled at violence and the things of this nature, where as you are exercising a free choice as is made by you, but when the walls come closer and closer in, and your choices are becoming harder and harder to make because you can't seem to separate yourself or your children from this stuff freely, then Houston we have a serious problem. Hey the devil doesn't want to be left out either, so always remember that when trying to separate yourself from him and his bad ways. It is his goal to limit and restrict choices, especially choices that separate you and your children from him and his corrupting influence, so he is always on the other side of the coin we have, and it is up to us what choice we make when using that coin when spending it. Go forth and spend wisely my friend, as to spend foolishly is to empower the wrong side of the coin.

 

[beagle9]

... when we mirandize them as quick as we can under our liberals miss-placed compassion and sympathy for the Devil himself run amuck, then (((ZIP))) instantly their mouths shut up and we lose the high ground in that instant. Now that is the definition of insanity if want to talk about definitions. Are liberals insane by their insane actions taken I wonder?

Do you want to make an exception to Constitutional rules just for them?

I thought rightists insisted on following the Constitution? The Miranda Rules are constitutionally protected.

The Miranda rules are for American citizens only, and not for those whom become the enemies of America, and this once forsake their citizenry in this effect or by way of such acts committed. When they become as terrorist bombing Americans by way of a foreign enemies ideology, religion or political stance taken, they are not citizens of this nation any longer. Then as within this case they committed a jihadist act against Americans be it on this soil or upon foreign soil they lose their rights as citizens. These soldiers should be taken to Gitmo instantly, and then given the proper military interrogation, and afterwards a military tribunal with possible executions involved next. Done deal...

 

[Sallow]

... when we mirandize them as quick as we can under our liberals miss-placed compassion and sympathy for the Devil himself run amuck, then (((ZIP))) instantly their mouths shut up and we lose the high ground in that instant. Now that is the definition of insanity if want to talk about definitions. Are liberals insane by their insane actions taken I wonder?

Do you want to make an exception to Constitutional rules just for them?

I thought rightists insisted on following the Constitution? The Miranda Rules are constitutionally protected.

The Miranda rules are for American citizens only, and not for those whom become the enemies of America, and this once forsake their citizenry in this effect or by way of such acts committed. When they become as terrorist bombing Americans by way of a foreign enemies ideology, religion or political stance taken, they are not citizens of this nation any longer. Then as within this case they committed a jihadist act against Americans be it on this soil or upon foreign soil they lose their rights as citizens. These soldiers should be taken to Gitmo instantly, and then given the proper military interrogation, and afterwards a military tribunal with possible executions involved next. Done deal...

No they are not.

In any case..the boston bombers were American Citizens.

 

[beagle9]

Do you want to make an exception to Constitutional rules just for them?

I thought rightists insisted on following the Constitution? The Miranda Rules are constitutionally protected.

The Miranda rules are for American citizens only, and not for those whom become the enemies of America, and this once forsake their citizenry in this effect or by way of such acts committed. When they become as terrorist bombing Americans by way of a foreign enemies ideology, religion or political stance taken, they are not citizens of this nation any longer. Then as within this case they committed a jihadist act against Americans be it on this soil or upon foreign soil they lose their rights as citizens. These soldiers should be taken to Gitmo instantly, and then given the proper military interrogation, and afterwards a military tribunal with possible executions involved next. Done deal...

No they are not.

In any case..the boston bombers were American Citizens.

Not after they attacked Americans as their enemy, in which was determined by the investigation being waged against them by the FBI.. Now if they were not waging war against Americans, but were found instead to be just two bullied college kids who had no ties what-so-ever to Muslims, Jihad, foreign terrorist organizations whom hate Americans and America, or even terrorist groups that exist in this nation as America's enemies who stay well hidden, then yes I could see them being read their rights at that point, but everyone knows better now, so what were you saying again ?

 

[georgephillip]

Al Qa'ida translates into English as "the Base"
CIA database, to be exact.
Did US support for Muslim extremism end with 911?

"In an interview with the state-run BBC, an unnamed senior commander from the terrorist Free Syrian Army (FSA) said the US has been secretly training the militants and the al-Qaeda operatives in neighboring Jordan.

"'Most of the rebels have some education; it was not hard for them to detect the American accent of the trainer. He spoke through a translator. But the way he spoke indicated that he was American,' he explained."

All Empires are addicted to war.
Their economies depend upon it.
What's the one crucial element an economy built on war can never be without?
An enemy.

PressTV - US training anti-Syria militants, al-Qaeda terrorists in Jordan: Report

 

[beagle9]

Al Qa'ida translates into English as "the Base"
CIA database, to be exact.
Did US support for Muslim extremism end with 911?

"In an interview with the state-run BBC, an unnamed senior commander from the terrorist Free Syrian Army (FSA) said the US has been secretly training the militants and the al-Qaeda operatives in neighboring Jordan.

"'Most of the rebels have some education; it was not hard for them to detect the American accent of the trainer. He spoke through a translator. But the way he spoke indicated that he was American,' he explained."

All Empires are addicted to war.
Their economies depend upon it.
What's the one crucial element an economy built on war can never be without?
An enemy.

PressTV - US training anti-Syria militants, al-Qaeda terrorists in Jordan: Report

If we are training them to fight in Syria, then who do you think in the administration has first hand knowledge of this or is behind it ?

 

[georgephillip]

Al Qa'ida translates into English as "the Base"
CIA database, to be exact.
Did US support for Muslim extremism end with 911?

"In an interview with the state-run BBC, an unnamed senior commander from the terrorist Free Syrian Army (FSA) said the US has been secretly training the militants and the al-Qaeda operatives in neighboring Jordan.

"'Most of the rebels have some education; it was not hard for them to detect the American accent of the trainer. He spoke through a translator. But the way he spoke indicated that he was American,' he explained."

All Empires are addicted to war.
Their economies depend upon it.
What's the one crucial element an economy built on war can never be without?
An enemy.

PressTV - US training anti-Syria militants, al-Qaeda terrorists in Jordan: Report

If we are training them to fight in Syria, then who do you think in the administration has first hand knowledge of this or is behind it ?

If such a plan exists, I would think hundreds of individuals across a multitude of governmental agencies would have first hand knowledge of it. As far as administrations go, it is not only Obama that's culpable but also every other president going back as far as Jimmy Carter.

Wesley Clark shed some light on this ten years ago:

"In Clark's book, Winning Modern Wars, published in 2003, he describes his conversation with a military officer in the Pentagon shortly after 9/11 regarding a plan to attack seven Middle Eastern countries in five years: 'As I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat.

"'Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan.'"

Sibel Edmonds also has a lot of useful information about the machinations of US Empire particularly how it relates to...

"...what’s “Really” Happening in Central Asia & the Caucasus"

Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Post | Home of the Irate Minority