Why I Could Never Be GOP or Libertarian

[sealybobo]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

 

[dblack]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Which half? Probably worth re-examining.

 

[forkup]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

 

[sealybobo]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Which half? Probably worth re-examining.

nahhh. You guys had your chance. Ron Paul came close and you guys actually took a step backward since him. Just look how well he did in the GOP primaries. Then he's too embarrassed to run as a Libertarian so he has some Dick named Johnson run in his place. A no name nobody. But you guys get enough support that the Libertarian party gets federal $. Bravo for you losers.

But here is another reason I'll never be a GOP. Supreme Court Strikes Down Texas Abortion Limits

The Supreme Court today struck down a Texas law that imposed significant restrictions onabortion clinics — a major victory for abortion rights activists and a blow to the campaign to limit the procedures.

In a 5-to-3 decision, the justices struck down a law that set strict regulations governing how abortion clinics operate. The Texas law, enacted in 2013, mainly required clinics providing abortion services to beef up their facilities to match walk-in surgical centers and mandated physicians performing abortions to have admitting privileges at local hospitals.

Which is ridiculous because abortions are very common, easy and safe to do.

The Supreme Court said Texas put an undue burden on a woman's legal right to get an abortion.

President Obama hailed the ruling, saying in a statement he is "pleased to see the Supreme Court protect women's rights and health today."

"We conclude that neither of these provisions offers medical benefits sufficient to justify the burdens upon access that each imposes," Breyer wrote of the “admitting-privileges requirement" and the “surgical center requirement. "Each places a substantial obstacle in the path of women seeking a pre-viability abortion, each constitutes an undue burden on abortion access, and each violates the federal Constitution."

Republicans don't mind being unconstitutional.

Breyer was joined by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. dissented.

In a concurring opinion, Ginsburg wrote, “Given those realities, it is beyond rational belief that [the Texas law] could genuinely protect the health of women and certain that the law "would simply make it more difficult for them to obtain abortions."

 

[dblack]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Which half? Probably worth re-examining.

nahhh. You guys had your chance. Ron Paul came close and you guys actually took a step backward since him. Just look how well he did in the GOP primaries. Then he's too embarrassed to run as a Libertarian so he has some Dick named Johnson run in his place. A no name nobody. But you guys get enough support that the Libertarian party gets federal $. Bravo for you losers.

But here is another reason I'll never be a GOP. Supreme Court Strikes Down Texas Abortion Limits

Wanna know why I could never vote GOP? Cause they're just as corrupt and statist as the Democrats.

 

[Arizona Willie]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Which half? Probably worth re-examining.

nahhh. You guys had your chance. Ron Paul came close and you guys actually took a step backward since him. Just look how well he did in the GOP primaries. Then he's too embarrassed to run as a Libertarian so he has some Dick named Johnson run in his place. A no name nobody. But you guys get enough support that the Libertarian party gets federal $. Bravo for you losers.

But here is another reason I'll never be a GOP. Supreme Court Strikes Down Texas Abortion Limits

The Supreme Court today struck down a Texas law that imposed significant restrictions onabortion clinics — a major victory for abortion rights activists and a blow to the campaign to limit the procedures.

In a 5-to-3 decision, the justices struck down a law that set strict regulations governing how abortion clinics operate. The Texas law, enacted in 2013, mainly required clinics providing abortion services to beef up their facilities to match walk-in surgical centers and mandated physicians performing abortions to have admitting privileges at local hospitals.

Which is ridiculous because abortions are very common, easy and safe to do.

The Supreme Court said Texas put an undue burden on a woman's legal right to get an abortion.

President Obama hailed the ruling, saying in a statement he is "pleased to see the Supreme Court protect women's rights and health today."

"We conclude that neither of these provisions offers medical benefits sufficient to justify the burdens upon access that each imposes," Breyer wrote of the “admitting-privileges requirement" and the “surgical center requirement. "Each places a substantial obstacle in the path of women seeking a pre-viability abortion, each constitutes an undue burden on abortion access, and each violates the federal Constitution."

Republicans don't mind being unconstitutional.

Breyer was joined by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. dissented.

In a concurring opinion, Ginsburg wrote, “Given those realities, it is beyond rational belief that [the Texas law] could genuinely protect the health of women and certain that the law "would simply make it more difficult for them to obtain abortions."

========
I've seen posts where the rabid righties are claiming that 5-3 isn't definitive because it wasn't unanimous---that it doesn't have any legitimacy or authority and can be ignored.

 

[JoeNormal]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

 

[kaz]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Yes, either we want to pay for everyone's healthcare or we want them to not have healthcare. What a dumb ass

 

[forkup]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

Free markets in itself isn't bad. Free markets without any oversight is the problem. The banking crisis being a perfect example. Once you say the goverment has no right to regulate how profit is to be made, pretty soon. Profit will be made on everything even when it is against the common good.

 

[kaz]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

Free markets isn't about companies, it's about free markets. You were wrong from the start. Capitalism is economic freedom, your service provider doesn't service you, you fire them

 

[sealybobo]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

As if I need more reasons not to ever vote for Republicans, here is another one.

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Monday gave former Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) the reprieve of his life — reversing his multiple convictions for corruption and effectively sparing him from federal prison.

Supreme Court Spares Ex-Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell From Prison

Such bullshit.

But notice how the black man doesn't get the same pass?

U.S. Supreme Court rejects Kwame Kilpatrick appeal

 

[forkup]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Yes, either we want to pay for everyone's healthcare or we want them to not have healthcare. What a dumb ass

Can I ask what is the problem with everybody having healthcare? Doesn't society benifit from having a healthy populous?

 

[JoeNormal]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

The rest of the world laughs at you right wingers who don't even want basic healthcare for the masses. American Conservative Republicans are the dumbest/greediest/stupidest people in the world.

I agree with half of everything you guys say but it's the half you are wrong about that makes you intolerable.

Yes, either we want to pay for everyone's healthcare or we want them to not have healthcare. What a dumb ass

Can I ask what is the problem with everybody having healthcare? Doesn't society benifit from having a healthy populous?

It doesn't make certain people ridiculously rich. That's a sin you know.

 

[forkup]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

Free markets isn't about companies, it's about free markets. You were wrong from the start. Capitalism is economic freedom, your service provider doesn't service you, you fire them

Ah lets compare free market healthcare as provided in the U.S.. To goverment provided healthcare in my country (Belgium). I've had this discussion before on this forum. My healthcare is cheaper per capita, more efficient, we have a higher average life expectancy. List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kaz]

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

Free markets in itself isn't bad. Free markets without any oversight is the problem. The banking crisis being a perfect example. Once you say the goverment has no right to regulate how profit is to be made, pretty soon. Profit will be made on everything even when it is against the common good.

It depends what you mean by "oversight." Giving a way to redress things like fraud, sure. Government providing "oversight" being a euphemism for controlling markets, no. That's just a version of socialism. Government only has a role in ensuring free markets by providing civil and criminal courts. Government never itself makes markets freer

 

[kaz]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

Free markets isn't about companies, it's about free markets. You were wrong from the start. Capitalism is economic freedom, your service provider doesn't service you, you fire them

Ah lets compare free market healthcare as provided in the U.S.. To goverment provided healthcare in my country (Belgium). I've had this discussion before on this forum. My healthcare is cheaper per capita, more efficient, we have a higher average life expectancy. List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Belgium. Fun country to visit. I spent the weekend before Christmas last year at the Hilton in the Centrum of Antwerp. It was a great celebration. I also spent a lot of a year in the 90s in Brussels.

As for medical care, it's really hard to compare our countries, and you're not counting the total cost of medical care, only the transactional out of pocket portion

 

[forkup]

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

Free markets in itself isn't bad. Free markets without any oversight is the problem. The banking crisis being a perfect example. Once you say the goverment has no right to regulate how profit is to be made, pretty soon. Profit will be made on everything even when it is against the common good.

It depends what you mean by "oversight." Giving a way to redress things like fraud, sure. Government providing "oversight" being a euphemism for controlling markets, no. That's just a version of socialism. Government only has a role in ensuring free markets by providing civil and criminal courts. Government never itself makes markets freer

Nothing bankers did during the run up to 2008 was or is illegal. How many people lost everything there? Again, you feel that preferable? Why is that superior, to saying there are certain things you can't do. Not allowing people mortgages you know in advance they can't pay back for instance? Btw the current bad ecoomic times you blame Obama for started there.

 

[forkup]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

Free markets isn't about companies, it's about free markets. You were wrong from the start. Capitalism is economic freedom, your service provider doesn't service you, you fire them

Ah lets compare free market healthcare as provided in the U.S.. To goverment provided healthcare in my country (Belgium). I've had this discussion before on this forum. My healthcare is cheaper per capita, more efficient, we have a higher average life expectancy. List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Belgium. Fun country to visit. I spent the weekend before Christmas last year at the Hilton in the Centrum of Antwerp. It was a great celebration. I also spent a lot of a year in the 90s in Brussels.

As for medical care, it's really hard to compare our countries, and you're not counting the total cost of medical care, only the transactional out of pocket portion

Nope that's the whole thing actually. I'll give you a breakdown as how we achieve that if you want.

 

[kaz]

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

I've come to the conclusion that the average American is either too stupid or too preoccupied with stupid shit to look further into the future than about a year. The really sad thing is that the major proponents of 'free markets' are the people who will be the easiest to replace via automation and AI.

Free markets in itself isn't bad. Free markets without any oversight is the problem. The banking crisis being a perfect example. Once you say the goverment has no right to regulate how profit is to be made, pretty soon. Profit will be made on everything even when it is against the common good.

It depends what you mean by "oversight." Giving a way to redress things like fraud, sure. Government providing "oversight" being a euphemism for controlling markets, no. That's just a version of socialism. Government only has a role in ensuring free markets by providing civil and criminal courts. Government never itself makes markets freer

Nothing bankers did during the run up to 2008 was or is illegal. How many people lost everything there? Again, you feel that preferable? Why is that superior, to saying there are certain things you can't do. Not allowing people mortgages you know in advance they can't pay back for instance? Btw the current bad ecoomic times you blame Obama for started there.

That whole thing was a cluster by both parties. Clinton started the policy of forcing banks to make subprime loans and the fed funded it with free cash. W came in and said wow, that's not going to end well. Then in typical useless Republican fashion continued and even expanded the policy.

That had nothing to do with free markets, that was a pure government manufactured crisis. And again, free markets ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS with being pro company. Free markets are about pro CHOICE. Consumers can fire any company they want. Employees can fire any hirer they want. Companies have to compete

 

[kaz]

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you

Look I live in a Western European country. My taxes are compared to yours insanely high. But I get it back. This is a thing the GOP has been very succesfull at. They have convinced it's base that private companies per definition are more effecient and because of that cheaper. That is simply wrong. A private company has different motivation to do stuff then a goverment. Some stuff a private company is better at but some things goverments are better at.

Free markets isn't about companies, it's about free markets. You were wrong from the start. Capitalism is economic freedom, your service provider doesn't service you, you fire them

Ah lets compare free market healthcare as provided in the U.S.. To goverment provided healthcare in my country (Belgium). I've had this discussion before on this forum. My healthcare is cheaper per capita, more efficient, we have a higher average life expectancy. List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Belgium. Fun country to visit. I spent the weekend before Christmas last year at the Hilton in the Centrum of Antwerp. It was a great celebration. I also spent a lot of a year in the 90s in Brussels.

As for medical care, it's really hard to compare our countries, and you're not counting the total cost of medical care, only the transactional out of pocket portion

Nope that's the whole thing actually. I'll give you a breakdown as how we achieve that if you want.

The US is driving medical advancements. Belgium is driving nothing. You're in a socialist country with price controls. Comparing the US medical industry to Belgium is ridiculous. And our costs have skyrocketed under the idiot Obama