Why i am agnostic

[Ropey]

Ropey (sorry, I'm not sure how to quote more than one person in the same post, is that sarcasm about having such a better statistical chance to be right? I'd be pretty interested in hearing whatever quantum theory you're referring to.

No, I am not a sarcastic sort as I find it deters from understanding one another. I don't go there, or if I do, very seldom.

That's why I said on a lighter note. Your chances of being right statistically are far better than our chances. Your is exist or not.

Ours is who exists and there are many more choices.

But, with regards to quantum theory, then all are possible and all are simply either or choices.

So, then, it comes back full circle. Quantum theory opens up a quantum probability where all possibilities are possible and singular so as to support all arguable, but with little (seemingly) mechanical evidence it doesn't matter because we don't seem to fully exist in that quantum universe.

But it is arguable, and as such can defeat the purity of elegant non quantitative (qualitative) mechanics.

 

[AmericanFirst]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

how would you explain these same results in Japan with those of the Buddhist faith?

Simple, buddha's remains are still in his grave, as is mohammed and every other false prophet or false god. Jesus rose from the dead physically and ascended to heaven in the flesh.

 

[AmericanFirst]

I'd like to apologize for bringing up such an old post, but I'd be intrigued as to how I would handle such a debate five years after making this thread. First off, I'd really like to apologize, not only about this post, but about how I used to act on this forum in general (I'd doubt that any of you would remember though), for such close-mindedness and at times, rudeness. I was in middle school, I was a dumb kid, and it was a really long time ago.

That being said, I still am an agnostic. I still don't believe that we are able to know for certain if a divine force exists or not. Obviously, the universe came into creation somehow, but I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that it was God who put everything here.

So my question to any believers out there is:
how can you have blind faith (I don't use that term with a negative connotation, it is what it is) in a single, exclusive religion? There are countless differing, exclusive faiths in this world. The chance any given believer would actually be correct in their beliefs has to at least be 1/3 (this is an incredibly generous ratio; it's hypothetical and only would be true if any type of Christianity would be considered "correct," which, seemingly, most Christian institutions do not believe themselves). No offense, but a reply such as "I know because I God has in one way or another confirmed this" isn't of much use; members of different religions use this same argument, which in my mind voids it.

From this point on, none of this is really relevant to the whole "existence of god" debate, but I think some might be interested.

I actually have explored this topic a great deal. I was raised Catholic, and I have gone on three church retreats with my youth group and even led one a few months ago. I really love my youth group; they are incredibly accepting of me being a nonbeliever and I can gain so much from their humanity. I have been brought to tears at a church retreat and I do believe that I felt whatever God is. But I don't see this as evidence of his existence either. It was really a response to the massive amounts of love that was present at the time. Call me an optimist, but I attribute that to the individuals in the room and what we were able to accomplish together. From that point on, I've been trying to find a way to allow for the rationality of secularism and the faith of religion. I've progressed pretty far in this, I'd say. Let's start my train of thought here: Consider this: How great is the bible? How wonderful is Jesus? My answer to both questions is, extremely! However, I believe the bible, as well as all holy books, to be written by man. With this in mind, I believe religion to be the greatest window into the nature of humanity. If you left man to create his own universe, you would essentially have a religion. And what is a better way to discover the true nature of humanity than to examine what would happen if they played God themselves? Just look at what we've come up with! Here is our true nature! I don't believe any religion to be more valid than any other, so in that sense I'm a pluralist. I'm with Gandhi on this one; "Truth is God" (by the way, he originally had written "God is Truth," but years later, he switched the words around).

I did my senior project on the question of God and religion. I even read the first few chapters of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which my english teacher had personally recommended. I stopped after his argument to support that the law of nature (the individual's awareness that certain actions are wrong that does not originate internally, but externally) has divine origin. I find it kind of silly; I don't see how societal forces did not construct this. Tabula rasa trumps the law of nature, in my opinion.

Part of my point in writing about this stuff is that I don't like how secularists and theists are so opposed and view themselves so differently. I think there's much to celebrate in both viewpoints. In truth, I wish I believed in God. As a secularist, this whole world and the nature of my existence is uncertain. So please, I welcome the arguments. Some of my beliefs may offend certain individuals, but I certainly don't mean them to. I'd hope that you wouldn't be offended by my belief that adhering to an exclusive spiritual ideology is illogical, just as I am not offended by those who think I'm damned to hell because I don't put blind faith in Jesus Christ.

To make this post even longer, sorry about the general choppyness of this post. I'm not that great at organizing my thoughts. Thanks for reading this far, haha.

If you felt God and you still do not believe you have problems. You do not need to be talking to us, you need to seek someone out that you can talk to about this subject.

 

[Stitchman]

I'd like to apologize for bringing up such an old post, but I'd be intrigued as to how I would handle such a debate five years after making this thread. First off, I'd really like to apologize, not only about this post, but about how I used to act on this forum in general (I'd doubt that any of you would remember though), for such close-mindedness and at times, rudeness. I was in middle school, I was a dumb kid, and it was a really long time ago.

That being said, I still am an agnostic. I still don't believe that we are able to know for certain if a divine force exists or not. Obviously, the universe came into creation somehow, but I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that it was God who put everything here.

So my question to any believers out there is:
how can you have blind faith (I don't use that term with a negative connotation, it is what it is) in a single, exclusive religion? There are countless differing, exclusive faiths in this world. The chance any given believer would actually be correct in their beliefs has to at least be 1/3 (this is an incredibly generous ratio; it's hypothetical and only would be true if any type of Christianity would be considered "correct," which, seemingly, most Christian institutions do not believe themselves). No offense, but a reply such as "I know because I God has in one way or another confirmed this" isn't of much use; members of different religions use this same argument, which in my mind voids it.

From this point on, none of this is really relevant to the whole "existence of god" debate, but I think some might be interested.

I actually have explored this topic a great deal. I was raised Catholic, and I have gone on three church retreats with my youth group and even led one a few months ago. I really love my youth group; they are incredibly accepting of me being a nonbeliever and I can gain so much from their humanity. I have been brought to tears at a church retreat and I do believe that I felt whatever God is. But I don't see this as evidence of his existence either. It was really a response to the massive amounts of love that was present at the time. Call me an optimist, but I attribute that to the individuals in the room and what we were able to accomplish together. From that point on, I've been trying to find a way to allow for the rationality of secularism and the faith of religion. I've progressed pretty far in this, I'd say. Let's start my train of thought here: Consider this: How great is the bible? How wonderful is Jesus? My answer to both questions is, extremely! However, I believe the bible, as well as all holy books, to be written by man. With this in mind, I believe religion to be the greatest window into the nature of humanity. If you left man to create his own universe, you would essentially have a religion. And what is a better way to discover the true nature of humanity than to examine what would happen if they played God themselves? Just look at what we've come up with! Here is our true nature! I don't believe any religion to be more valid than any other, so in that sense I'm a pluralist. I'm with Gandhi on this one; "Truth is God" (by the way, he originally had written "God is Truth," but years later, he switched the words around).

I did my senior project on the question of God and religion. I even read the first few chapters of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which my english teacher had personally recommended. I stopped after his argument to support that the law of nature (the individual's awareness that certain actions are wrong that does not originate internally, but externally) has divine origin. I find it kind of silly; I don't see how societal forces did not construct this. Tabula rasa trumps the law of nature, in my opinion.

Part of my point in writing about this stuff is that I don't like how secularists and theists are so opposed and view themselves so differently. I think there's much to celebrate in both viewpoints. In truth, I wish I believed in God. As a secularist, this whole world and the nature of my existence is uncertain. So please, I welcome the arguments. Some of my beliefs may offend certain individuals, but I certainly don't mean them to. I'd hope that you wouldn't be offended by my belief that adhering to an exclusive spiritual ideology is illogical, just as I am not offended by those who think I'm damned to hell because I don't put blind faith in Jesus Christ.

To make this post even longer, sorry about the general choppyness of this post. I'm not that great at organizing my thoughts. Thanks for reading this far, haha.

If you felt God and you still do not believe you have problems. You do not need to be talking to us, you need to seek someone out that you can talk to about this subject.

Well, here's the thing. You, I assume, wouldn't consider Hinduism a valid religion, correct? Well, there are thousands of Hindu's who claim to have experienced and felt God. So, is feeling God really a valid reason to adopt a faith? Who would you recommend talking to? I've talked with my youth group about my struggle with my faith, and as helpful and as sympathetic as they were, I didn't get a solid answer.

 

[rikules]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

"there are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God."

I'm waiting for you to list them.



"There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God."


and I'm waiting for you to PROVE this.


" But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies."

logical explanations for this; lying, faking, deranged, insane

" There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray."

actually, there is.
researchers have discovered that people who pray OR meditate (in any manner shape or form)
have feelings of peace and serenity


" There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all."

sure there is; he/she is a simpleminded buffoon and responds in extreme manners based upon irrational fears



" And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood."


first; you would have to show evidence that this has occurred
second; of COURSE there are logical explanations for these things. You merely CHOOSE the religious explanation while discarding ANY and ALL other explanations.

THAT is hardly proof of god.


-------------------------------

if you can actually "prove" the existence of god...
which god would you "prove" exists?

the one who endorsed slavery?
the one who intends to burn gays and atheists in hell forever?
the one with extreme punishments for people whose only crime is getting divorced?
or having sex outside of marriage?

the one who speaks to sarah palin?

one last question;
when god helps one football team beat another one...
is that cheating?
does god cheat?

 

[AmericanFirst]

I'd like to apologize for bringing up such an old post, but I'd be intrigued as to how I would handle such a debate five years after making this thread. First off, I'd really like to apologize, not only about this post, but about how I used to act on this forum in general (I'd doubt that any of you would remember though), for such close-mindedness and at times, rudeness. I was in middle school, I was a dumb kid, and it was a really long time ago.

That being said, I still am an agnostic. I still don't believe that we are able to know for certain if a divine force exists or not. Obviously, the universe came into creation somehow, but I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that it was God who put everything here.

So my question to any believers out there is:
how can you have blind faith (I don't use that term with a negative connotation, it is what it is) in a single, exclusive religion? There are countless differing, exclusive faiths in this world. The chance any given believer would actually be correct in their beliefs has to at least be 1/3 (this is an incredibly generous ratio; it's hypothetical and only would be true if any type of Christianity would be considered "correct," which, seemingly, most Christian institutions do not believe themselves). No offense, but a reply such as "I know because I God has in one way or another confirmed this" isn't of much use; members of different religions use this same argument, which in my mind voids it.

From this point on, none of this is really relevant to the whole "existence of god" debate, but I think some might be interested.

I actually have explored this topic a great deal. I was raised Catholic, and I have gone on three church retreats with my youth group and even led one a few months ago. I really love my youth group; they are incredibly accepting of me being a nonbeliever and I can gain so much from their humanity. I have been brought to tears at a church retreat and I do believe that I felt whatever God is. But I don't see this as evidence of his existence either. It was really a response to the massive amounts of love that was present at the time. Call me an optimist, but I attribute that to the individuals in the room and what we were able to accomplish together. From that point on, I've been trying to find a way to allow for the rationality of secularism and the faith of religion. I've progressed pretty far in this, I'd say. Let's start my train of thought here: Consider this: How great is the bible? How wonderful is Jesus? My answer to both questions is, extremely! However, I believe the bible, as well as all holy books, to be written by man. With this in mind, I believe religion to be the greatest window into the nature of humanity. If you left man to create his own universe, you would essentially have a religion. And what is a better way to discover the true nature of humanity than to examine what would happen if they played God themselves? Just look at what we've come up with! Here is our true nature! I don't believe any religion to be more valid than any other, so in that sense I'm a pluralist. I'm with Gandhi on this one; "Truth is God" (by the way, he originally had written "God is Truth," but years later, he switched the words around).

I did my senior project on the question of God and religion. I even read the first few chapters of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which my english teacher had personally recommended. I stopped after his argument to support that the law of nature (the individual's awareness that certain actions are wrong that does not originate internally, but externally) has divine origin. I find it kind of silly; I don't see how societal forces did not construct this. Tabula rasa trumps the law of nature, in my opinion.

Part of my point in writing about this stuff is that I don't like how secularists and theists are so opposed and view themselves so differently. I think there's much to celebrate in both viewpoints. In truth, I wish I believed in God. As a secularist, this whole world and the nature of my existence is uncertain. So please, I welcome the arguments. Some of my beliefs may offend certain individuals, but I certainly don't mean them to. I'd hope that you wouldn't be offended by my belief that adhering to an exclusive spiritual ideology is illogical, just as I am not offended by those who think I'm damned to hell because I don't put blind faith in Jesus Christ.

To make this post even longer, sorry about the general choppyness of this post. I'm not that great at organizing my thoughts. Thanks for reading this far, haha.

If you felt God and you still do not believe you have problems. You do not need to be talking to us, you need to seek someone out that you can talk to about this subject.

Well, here's the thing. You, I assume, wouldn't consider Hinduism a valid religion, correct? Well, there are thousands of Hindu's who claim to have experienced and felt God. So, is feeling God really a valid reason to adopt a faith? Who would you recommend talking to? I've talked with my youth group about my struggle with my faith, and as helpful and as sympathetic as they were, I didn't get a solid answer.

You are right. I consider Hinduism a cult just like Islam, Scientology, and the likes. Just because they said they "felt God" doesn't mean they felt the one true God. I have never felt God, but based on faith I believe in him.

 

[Mr Natural]

If you felt God and you still do not believe you have problems. You do not need to be talking to us, you need to seek someone out that you can talk to about this subject.

Well, here's the thing. You, I assume, wouldn't consider Hinduism a valid religion, correct? Well, there are thousands of Hindu's who claim to have experienced and felt God. So, is feeling God really a valid reason to adopt a faith? Who would you recommend talking to? I've talked with my youth group about my struggle with my faith, and as helpful and as sympathetic as they were, I didn't get a solid answer.

You are right. I consider Hinduism a cult just like Islam, Scientology, and the likes. Just because they said they "felt God" doesn't mean they felt the one true God. I have never felt God, but based on faith I believe in him.

All religions are cults.

 

[AmericanFirst]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

"there are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God."

I'm waiting for you to list them.



"There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God."


and I'm waiting for you to PROVE this.


" But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies."

logical explanations for this; lying, faking, deranged, insane

" There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray."

actually, there is.
researchers have discovered that people who pray OR meditate (in any manner shape or form)
have feelings of peace and serenity


" There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all."

sure there is; he/she is a simpleminded buffoon and responds in extreme manners based upon irrational fears



" And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood."


first; you would have to show evidence that this has occurred
second; of COURSE there are logical explanations for these things. You merely CHOOSE the religious explanation while discarding ANY and ALL other explanations.

THAT is hardly proof of god.


-------------------------------

if you can actually "prove" the existence of god...
which god would you "prove" exists?

the one who endorsed slavery?
the one who intends to burn gays and atheists in hell forever?
the one with extreme punishments for people whose only crime is getting divorced?
or having sex outside of marriage?

the one who speaks to sarah palin?

one last question;
when god helps one football team beat another one...
is that cheating?
does god cheat?

As a Christian I do not have to prove God exists. I just present the evidence to you and you make your own decision. But be careful, you need to look into it with an open mind. Just read the Bible. I tell people to read the book of John in the new testament.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Well, here's the thing. You, I assume, wouldn't consider Hinduism a valid religion, correct? Well, there are thousands of Hindu's who claim to have experienced and felt God. So, is feeling God really a valid reason to adopt a faith? Who would you recommend talking to? I've talked with my youth group about my struggle with my faith, and as helpful and as sympathetic as they were, I didn't get a solid answer.

You are right. I consider Hinduism a cult just like Islam, Scientology, and the likes. Just because they said they "felt God" doesn't mean they felt the one true God. I have never felt God, but based on faith I believe in him.

All religions are cults.

Not true.

 

[HUGGY]

I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons.

Stitch, I'm curious (not yet having read the article): if someone presented a different religion to you in a logical sense, using proofs, etc. etc., would you believe it?

Name one organised religion that is "logical".

 

[akositesla]

Give a universal definition of "god" first before we can make an attempt to prove its existence.

 

[hipeter924]

I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons.

Stitch, I'm curious (not yet having read the article): if someone presented a different religion to you in a logical sense, using proofs, etc. etc., would you believe it?

Name one organised religion that is "logical".

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw[/ame]

Skip to 1:30.