Why has automotive engineering flatlined?

[CrusaderFrank]

Here's the progress in Space X Raptor Engines in a few short years, "SpaceX is continuously improving its Raptor rocket engine, with the latest iteration, Raptor 3, boasting significant advancements over its predecessors. Raptor 3 is more powerful, lighter, and simpler than earlier versions, with a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. It also eliminates the need for a heat shield due to its advanced design."

More power: Sea level thrust, Raptor 1, 2, 3: 185, 230 , 280

From 2016 to today, the engine delivers 55% more thrust and weighs less

The automobile?

"The average fuel economy for cars in model year 2000 was 27.5 mpg, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)."

Still the same today

It's as if progress is stifled to keep consumers headed to the gas pumps

 

[shockedcanadian]

Here's the progress in Space X Raptor Engines in a few short years, "SpaceX is continuously improving its Raptor rocket engine, with the latest iteration, Raptor 3, boasting significant advancements over its predecessors. Raptor 3 is more powerful, lighter, and simpler than earlier versions, with a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. It also eliminates the need for a heat shield due to its advanced design."

More power: Sea level thrust, Raptor 1, 2, 3: 185, 230 , 280

From 2016 to today, the engine delivers 55% more thrust and weighs less

The automobile?

"The average fuel economy for cars in model year 2000 was 27.5 mpg, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)."

Still the same today

It's as if progress is stifled to keep consumers headed to the gas pumps

Many years ago, in the 70s or 80s I believed, someone developed a motor design that would have decreased significantly the fuel requirements to operate at the similar torque level.

It was a 60 Minutes show or W5 (a Canadian comparable), some investigative show of the day who had this man explaining how it worked and that some large gas or oil company purchased the technology and it never saw the light of day.

 

[Crepitus]

Many years ago, in the 70s or 80s I believed, someone developed a motor design that would have decreased significantly the fuel requirements to operate at the similar torque level.

It was a 60 Minutes show or W5 (a Canadian comparable), some investigative show of the day who had this man explaining how it worked and that some large gas or oil company purchased the technology and it never saw the light of day.

That's an urban legend.

 

[shockedcanadian]

That's an urban legend.

Yes, there have been multiple legends but I saw this show without question. He had a hollowed out carburator and was illustrating how it worked to ensure the gas being fed was substantially more efficient. To the power of three or four as I recall.

I forget if he had the patent or if he secured the patent on behalf of a large company he worked for but he claimed it was buried and even if someone re-invented it, they wouldn't be able to commercialize it due to patent rights.


It was the whole purpose of the segment which ran perhaps 15 minutes or so. I can still see the image of him handling the motor and explaining out on a suburban road near his home.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese just copied a similar model and implemented it in their Hondas and Toyotas who were known at that time to be notoriously better fuel efficient. The argument I heard back then against buying Japanese was that the parts were expensive if something went wrong with the vehicle etc.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That's an urban legend.

Safe and effective kind of “legend”?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Many years ago, in the 70s or 80s I believed, someone developed a motor design that would have decreased significantly the fuel requirements to operate at the similar torque level.

It was a 60 Minutes show or W5 (a Canadian comparable), some investigative show of the day who had this man explaining how it worked and that some large gas or oil company purchased the technology and it never saw the light of day.

/---/ I don't buy that urban legend. Why didn't oil companies buy out hybrid, hydrogen, and EV technology?

 

[shockedcanadian]

/---/ I don't buy that urban legend. Why didn't oil companies buy out hybrid, hydrogen, and EV technology?

It was a different world then with far fewer competitors. Hell it could been encouraged by a U.S government agency who felt it was in the interest of national security to block it, I dont know.

Then once the Japanese automakers made major inroads due to their far more efficient engines you could imagine the same agencies saying "release this technology so that U.S auto manufacturers can compete on this feature".

The Japanese were notorious for stealing U.S IP. This was the 1980s don't forget, Japan was treated in some respects as China is today from the standpoint of being viewed as a foreign economic threat but far less as they were focused on cars and electronics almost exclusively.

The engines of today are probably 40-50% more fuel efficient than in the 1980s. This is why fair consumer competition is great if based on capitalist innovation and not other factors.

 

[Cellblock2429]

It was a different world then with far fewer competitors. Hell it could been encouraged by a U.S government agency who felt it was in the interest of national security to block it, I dont know.

Then once the Japanese automakers made major inroads due to their far more efficient engines you could imagine the same agencies saying "release this technology so that U.S auto manufacturers can compete on this feature".

The Japanese were notorious for stealing U.S IP. This was the 1980s don't forget, Japan was treated in some respects as China is today from the standpoint of being viewed as a foreign economic threat but far less as they were focused on cars and electronics almost exclusively.

The engines of today are probably 40-50% more fuel efficient than in the 1980s. This is why fair consumer competition is great if based on capitalist innovation and not other factors.

/----/ I agree. The same argument could be made for electronic ignition and fuel injection that boosted MPG.

 

[progressive hunter]

Here's the progress in Space X Raptor Engines in a few short years, "SpaceX is continuously improving its Raptor rocket engine, with the latest iteration, Raptor 3, boasting significant advancements over its predecessors. Raptor 3 is more powerful, lighter, and simpler than earlier versions, with a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. It also eliminates the need for a heat shield due to its advanced design."

More power: Sea level thrust, Raptor 1, 2, 3: 185, 230 , 280

From 2016 to today, the engine delivers 55% more thrust and weighs less

The automobile?

"The average fuel economy for cars in model year 2000 was 27.5 mpg, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)."

Still the same today

It's as if progress is stifled to keep consumers headed to the gas pumps

you forgot about electric cars,,

more power less fuel,,

 

[JohnDB]

Here's the progress in Space X Raptor Engines in a few short years, "SpaceX is continuously improving its Raptor rocket engine, with the latest iteration, Raptor 3, boasting significant advancements over its predecessors. Raptor 3 is more powerful, lighter, and simpler than earlier versions, with a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. It also eliminates the need for a heat shield due to its advanced design."

More power: Sea level thrust, Raptor 1, 2, 3: 185, 230 , 280

From 2016 to today, the engine delivers 55% more thrust and weighs less

The automobile?

"The average fuel economy for cars in model year 2000 was 27.5 mpg, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)."

Still the same today

It's as if progress is stifled to keep consumers headed to the gas pumps

Cars are the least desired automobile in America. GM has all but stopped selling them due to lack of demand for light truck and SUV designs. The old station wagon (highly demanded) has been replaced with an SUV and mini-vans due to demand.

And the Station wagon was not abandoned for any reason other than government regulations from the EPA.

A few more MPG can be had by aerating the gasoline before its burned. But the increased maintenance absorbs the cost savings immediately. So they have gone to high pressure fuel injection....which allows for the LGE or large gas engine to be used. (Larger engines due to customer demand for horsepower have negated fuel consumption efficiencies)

The EPA has been fascist in demands from the auto industry....informing them where they can locate things like O² sensors (primary and secondary) Which in effect has made many newer model vehicles become more disposable and unrepairable.


And some states like Tennessee have requested that yearly car emission inspections be stopped when air quality has improved....just to be denied. (Costs the state and individuals millions yearly )


Granted....if corporations could get away with it they would charge you just for walking on a car lot to look at new vehicles. They have yet (other than leases) figured out how to continue to bill you for their vehicles once paid off. Kinda like the health insurance companies who charge premiums but cover nothing.

Don't misunderstand....I like breathing. But between the UAW and Government regulations they have almost killed any innovation that might have been made.

90% of a vehicle is produced by "robotics" anymore with human oversight. That portion remaining is that the UAW needs someone to pay dues to license their control over the automakers. (Besides the huge amount of stock and commercial paper they hold).


The UAW Union currently owns controlling interest and commercial paper of all 3 automakers.

That's what you really need to know. That's partly why there's no innovation. The EPA is the other part. Customers? Nobody really cares even if they get mentioned a lot.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

you forgot about electric cars,,

more power less fuel,,

no I didn’t, I should have specified ICE engines

 

[Crepitus]

Yes, there have been multiple legends but I saw this show without question. He had a hollowed out carburator and was illustrating how it worked to ensure the gas being fed was substantially more efficient. To the power of three or four as I recall.

I forget if he had the patent or if he secured the patent on behalf of a large company he worked for but he claimed it was buried and even if someone re-invented it, they wouldn't be able to commercialize it due to patent rights.


It was the whole purpose of the segment which ran perhaps 15 minutes or so. I can still see the image of him handling the motor and explaining out on a suburban road near his home.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese just copied a similar model and implemented it in their Hondas and Toyotas who were known at that time to be notoriously better fuel efficient. The argument I heard back then against buying Japanese was that the parts were expensive if something went wrong with the vehicle etc.

That's what fuel injectors are for. There is no super efficient carburetor. That myth has been around since the 1970s.

 

[Crepitus]

Safe and effective kind of “legend”?

Just go back to huffing the gas, kid. Nobody was talking to you.

 

[JohnDB]