Why engineering majors switch to English

[psikeyhackr]

The schools are designed to manipulate people into competing with each other. Then they teach in a way to make interesting subjects BORING.

I had an instructor walk into the very first class and tell us how many A's and how many B's he would give that semester. Like how could he know. It wasn't about knowing the subject it was artificial competition.

So TEN YEARS after 9/11 these engineers can't demand to know the distributions of steel and concrete in skyscrapers. Our schools produce pseudo-intellectuals who conform to AUTHORITY.

psik

 

[Wonky Pundit]

The schools are designed to manipulate people into competing with each other. Then they teach in a way to make interesting subjects BORING.

I had an instructor walk into the very first class and tell us how many A's and how many B's he would give that semester. Like how could he know. It wasn't about knowing the subject it was artificial competition.

So TEN YEARS after 9/11 these engineers can't demand to know the distributions of steel and concrete in skyscrapers. Our schools produce pseudo-intellectuals who conform to AUTHORITY.

psik

Unfortunately you still need the piece of paper to be taken seriously. Most of the actual learning you need to do will have to wait until after graduation. Even in technical subjects, only about 20% of what the engineer needs to know on the job is ever taught in college.

 

[freedombecki]

Nice theories about engineers/scientists, guys.

The man I married took his engineering degree and his sense of humor to work and became head of his department and half his company in the state. Then he took all his line guys and educated them in safety procedures and laughing at themselves a little bit. In the entire company, he was the only manager with a 33 year career in which no lineman in the state died due to electrocution by working on company lines, which were built safe, repaired safely, and managed safely under his tutelage of a safety meeting first thing every monday morning every single week.

I think that's a little more than "how things work" and "why things work". He had faith in his men's leaders to keep all of them safe and all their children with a Dad who was healthy and came home safely every night with never a lost time accident.

Your job is what you make it to be. He made his job about everybody else's safety and comfort to a zero percent chance any of them would suffer a fall or an electrocution from working on high poles with wires and transformers going every which way.

Lucky me.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Nice theories about engineers/scientists, guys.

The man I married took his engineering degree and his sense of humor to work and became head of his department and half his company in the state. Then he took all his line guys and educated them in safety procedures and laughing at themselves a little bit. In the entire company, he was the only manager with a 33 year career in which no lineman in the state died due to electrocution by working on company lines, which were built safe, repaired safely, and managed safely under his tutelage of a safety meeting first thing every monday morning every single week.

I think that's a little more than "how things work" and "why things work". He had faith in his men's leaders to keep all of them safe and all their children with a Dad who was healthy and came home safely every night with never a lost time accident.

Your job is what you make it to be. He made his job about everybody else's safety and comfort to a zero percent chance any of them would suffer a fall or an electrocution from working on high poles with wires and transformers going every which way.

Lucky me.

That's the thing about real-world jobs: there's very little you can accomplish all by yourself, and that situation is exactly the opposite of the college student's.

You're indeed lucky that your husband knows that.

 

[jillian]

My first calculus class at Roosevelt had 44 students. Calculus III had 12 and 10 graduated. While attending Roosevelt, I went three nights a week, worked full time and spent every minute in between studying. Every weekend. Every holiday.

I've had a lot of different teachers during the years, and the truth is, the more difficult the subject, the fewer people that will be able to complete the course. Of course, great teachers make the course more interesting and there is no doubt about the help they provide. The truth is, not everyone can do it. You can make a great living as a "technician" or a "service engineer" and still have an interesting job. In fact, engineering is one of the most pressure filled jobs you could possibly have.

Back in the 60s, people somehow got this misguided idea that every high school student in the country should go on to college. IMO, this mindset has a lot to do with the high dropout rates.

Plenty of people, while far from stupid, are simply not academically inclined. These kids should be attending trade schools or vocational schools instead, and they can still make a good living afterwards, instead of being overeducated and underemployed.

there's an additional problem. because of the large numbers of people with degrees, jobs that really don't require college-level skills, require a college diploma. i was shocked to find that without a degree, a person can't be a delivery person for fedex.

so what to do when you can't get jobs absent the degree? then a post-graduate degree becomes a requirement to set someone apart.

it's a quandry.

 

[TheBrain]

My first calculus class at Roosevelt had 44 students. Calculus III had 12 and 10 graduated. While attending Roosevelt, I went three nights a week, worked full time and spent every minute in between studying. Every weekend. Every holiday.

I've had a lot of different teachers during the years, and the truth is, the more difficult the subject, the fewer people that will be able to complete the course. Of course, great teachers make the course more interesting and there is no doubt about the help they provide. The truth is, not everyone can do it. You can make a great living as a "technician" or a "service engineer" and still have an interesting job. In fact, engineering is one of the most pressure filled jobs you could possibly have.

Back in the 60s, people somehow got this misguided idea that every high school student in the country should go on to college. IMO, this mindset has a lot to do with the high dropout rates.

Plenty of people, while far from stupid, are simply not academically inclined. These kids should be attending trade schools or vocational schools instead, and they can still make a good living afterwards, instead of being overeducated and underemployed.

there's an additional problem. because of the large numbers of people with degrees, jobs that really don't require college-level skills, require a college diploma. i was shocked to find that without a degree, a person can't be a delivery person for fedex.

so what to do when you can't get jobs absent the degree? then a post-graduate degree becomes a requirement to set someone apart.

it's a quandry.

Without a Bachelors? Surely you mean without a high school diploma? Surely tell me you looked at that wrong? That's crazy.

 

[rdean]

The schools are designed to manipulate people into competing with each other. Then they teach in a way to make interesting subjects BORING.

I had an instructor walk into the very first class and tell us how many A's and how many B's he would give that semester. Like how could he know. It wasn't about knowing the subject it was artificial competition.

So TEN YEARS after 9/11 these engineers can't demand to know the distributions of steel and concrete in skyscrapers. Our schools produce pseudo-intellectuals who conform to AUTHORITY.

psik

Unfortunately you still need the piece of paper to be taken seriously. Most of the actual learning you need to do will have to wait until after graduation. Even in technical subjects, only about 20% of what the engineer needs to know on the job is ever taught in college.

As well it should be.

Every company is so different. Even the most demanding engineering curriculum only teaches the basics.

You may study programming and program all day long and your program will never work in a computer. Think PLC.

As a mechanical engineer, all of your designs may be in sheet metal. Or may be "machined" parts" Or they may involve "springs". Or they may involve automation. Or a combination of them all.

Every company handles revisions differently. Every company handles documentation different and that includes specification sheets, MRP, stock practices.

Think "Chemical engineer". A shampoo company is going to need different requirements than someone making "brite passivation".

When people talk about engineering and engineers in such broad terms and never discuss how each job is "specialized", I wonder if they actually know any engineers. And calling engineers "stupid" after explaining how competitive the field is, is, well, "stupid". Bad engineers find other opportunities.

 

[daveman]

My first calculus class at Roosevelt had 44 students. Calculus III had 12 and 10 graduated. While attending Roosevelt, I went three nights a week, worked full time and spent every minute in between studying. Every weekend. Every holiday.

I've had a lot of different teachers during the years, and the truth is, the more difficult the subject, the fewer people that will be able to complete the course. Of course, great teachers make the course more interesting and there is no doubt about the help they provide. The truth is, not everyone can do it. You can make a great living as a "technician" or a "service engineer" and still have an interesting job. In fact, engineering is one of the most pressure filled jobs you could possibly have.

Back in the 60s, people somehow got this misguided idea that every high school student in the country should go on to college. IMO, this mindset has a lot to do with the high dropout rates.

Plenty of people, while far from stupid, are simply not academically inclined. These kids should be attending trade schools or vocational schools instead, and they can still make a good living afterwards, instead of being overeducated and underemployed.

there's an additional problem. because of the large numbers of people with degrees, jobs that really don't require college-level skills, require a college diploma. i was shocked to find that without a degree, a person can't be a delivery person for fedex.

so what to do when you can't get jobs absent the degree? then a post-graduate degree becomes a requirement to set someone apart.

it's a quandry.

My sister-in-law started as a courier for FedEx. She's now a district manager. No degree.

 

[Foxfyre]

College professors often have no training in teaching; most don't have education degrees; and while there are some who are brilliant there are absolutely some who suck. Those hired to teach mathematics, science, and engineering courses generally have a high degree of proficiency in their subject. But many can't seem to communicate it to their class. It takes a lot of work to learn from a person like that.

And then when you have so many math and science teachers these days who have been imported from Asia or some other part of the world because of their expertise, who can barely speak English and do so with a really heavy accent, it makes it doubly difficult for the students.

But I am not of the camp that suggest engineers are undereducated or can't think critically or abstractly. A good design engineer has to. And some are absolutely briliant.

 

[rdean]

Back in the 60s, people somehow got this misguided idea that every high school student in the country should go on to college. IMO, this mindset has a lot to do with the high dropout rates.

Plenty of people, while far from stupid, are simply not academically inclined. These kids should be attending trade schools or vocational schools instead, and they can still make a good living afterwards, instead of being overeducated and underemployed.

there's an additional problem. because of the large numbers of people with degrees, jobs that really don't require college-level skills, require a college diploma. i was shocked to find that without a degree, a person can't be a delivery person for fedex.

so what to do when you can't get jobs absent the degree? then a post-graduate degree becomes a requirement to set someone apart.

it's a quandry.

My sister-in-law started as a courier for FedEx. She's now a district manager. No degree.

Sincerely hope she doesn't get "laid off". Or worse, replaced by a young gun with a degree. That happened to my sister.

 

[daveman]

there's an additional problem. because of the large numbers of people with degrees, jobs that really don't require college-level skills, require a college diploma. i was shocked to find that without a degree, a person can't be a delivery person for fedex.

so what to do when you can't get jobs absent the degree? then a post-graduate degree becomes a requirement to set someone apart.

it's a quandry.

My sister-in-law started as a courier for FedEx. She's now a district manager. No degree.

Sincerely hope she doesn't get "laid off". Or worse, replaced by a young gun with a degree. That happened to my sister.

Thanks. She actually just turned down a promotion to a larger market so she wouldn't be too far away from her aging parents. I think they're pretty happy with her.

 

[rdean]

College professors often have no training in teaching; most don't have education degrees; and while there are some who are brilliant there are absolutely some who suck. Those hired to teach mathematics, science, and engineering courses generally have a high degree of proficiency in their subject. But many can't seem to communicate it to their class. It takes a lot of work to learn from a person like that.

And then when you have so many math and science teachers these days who have been imported from Asia or some other part of the world because of their expertise, who can barely speak English and do so with a really heavy accent, it makes it doubly difficult for the students.

But I am not of the camp that suggest engineers are undereducated or can't think critically or abstractly. A good design engineer has to. And some are absolutely briliant.

Many? Or some?

These are some pretty smart people. They get the hang of teaching, for the most part, during the first semester they teach.

But it's true about the accents. Engineering degrees today mean several courses in physics. You may have a physics course that concentrates on heat transfer, volume, fluid dynamics. Another one on only "spectrum". Another one on the physics of digital circuitry, another on analog components and so on.

I had one physics teacher from Iraq that taught "spectrum analysis". He only taught part time because his other job was as a research scientist using lasers in dermatology. That meant the had access to lots of lasers, red, green, and all different sizes. Which he brought to class and set up with mirrors, filters and beam splitters. It was amazing.

Another physics teacher I had was teaching at a university and had no degree at all. He had worked at Ford or General Motors, can't remember which, as a "crash test" engineer for over 35 years. The physics of crash testing before computers. I shudder to think.

 

[Polk]

My first calculus class at Roosevelt had 44 students. Calculus III had 12 and 10 graduated. While attending Roosevelt, I went three nights a week, worked full time and spent every minute in between studying. Every weekend. Every holiday.

I've had a lot of different teachers during the years, and the truth is, the more difficult the subject, the fewer people that will be able to complete the course. Of course, great teachers make the course more interesting and there is no doubt about the help they provide. The truth is, not everyone can do it. You can make a great living as a "technician" or a "service engineer" and still have an interesting job. In fact, engineering is one of the most pressure filled jobs you could possibly have.

Back in the 60s, people somehow got this misguided idea that every high school student in the country should go on to college. IMO, this mindset has a lot to do with the high dropout rates.

Plenty of people, while far from stupid, are simply not academically inclined. These kids should be attending trade schools or vocational schools instead, and they can still make a good living afterwards, instead of being overeducated and underemployed.

Absolutely.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

College professors often have no training in teaching; most don't have education degrees; and while there are some who are brilliant there are absolutely some who suck. Those hired to teach mathematics, science, and engineering courses generally have a high degree of proficiency in their subject. But many can't seem to communicate it to their class. It takes a lot of work to learn from a person like that.

And then when you have so many math and science teachers these days who have been imported from Asia or some other part of the world because of their expertise, who can barely speak English and do so with a really heavy accent, it makes it doubly difficult for the students.

But I am not of the camp that suggest engineers are undereducated or can't think critically or abstractly. A good design engineer has to. And some are absolutely briliant.

Many? Or some?

These are some pretty smart people. They get the hang of teaching, for the most part, during the first semester they teach.

But it's true about the accents. Engineering degrees today mean several courses in physics. You may have a physics course that concentrates on heat transfer, volume, fluid dynamics. Another one on only "spectrum". Another one on the physics of digital circuitry, another on analog components and so on.

I had one physics teacher from Iraq that taught "spectrum analysis". He only taught part time because his other job was as a research scientist using lasers in dermatology. That meant the had access to lots of lasers, red, green, and all different sizes. Which he brought to class and set up with mirrors, filters and beam splitters. It was amazing.

Another physics teacher I had was teaching at a university and had no degree at all. He had worked at Ford or General Motors, can't remember which, as a "crash test" engineer for over 35 years. The physics of crash testing before computers. I shudder to think.

They do?

Teaching is about relating to people, not being smart. Engineers are generally nerds, and are foten diagnosed with various degrees of autism, which means they have trouble relating to people.

Engineers might be smart, but good teachers are empathic. Think about it for a while and you will even admit I am right. those teachers you admire were the exception, and they were good because they were more than smart. This is one thing Oprah got right, people learn from emotions, not facts.

 

[rdean]

College professors often have no training in teaching; most don't have education degrees; and while there are some who are brilliant there are absolutely some who suck. Those hired to teach mathematics, science, and engineering courses generally have a high degree of proficiency in their subject. But many can't seem to communicate it to their class. It takes a lot of work to learn from a person like that.

And then when you have so many math and science teachers these days who have been imported from Asia or some other part of the world because of their expertise, who can barely speak English and do so with a really heavy accent, it makes it doubly difficult for the students.

But I am not of the camp that suggest engineers are undereducated or can't think critically or abstractly. A good design engineer has to. And some are absolutely briliant.

Many? Or some?

These are some pretty smart people. They get the hang of teaching, for the most part, during the first semester they teach.

But it's true about the accents. Engineering degrees today mean several courses in physics. You may have a physics course that concentrates on heat transfer, volume, fluid dynamics. Another one on only "spectrum". Another one on the physics of digital circuitry, another on analog components and so on.

I had one physics teacher from Iraq that taught "spectrum analysis". He only taught part time because his other job was as a research scientist using lasers in dermatology. That meant the had access to lots of lasers, red, green, and all different sizes. Which he brought to class and set up with mirrors, filters and beam splitters. It was amazing.

Another physics teacher I had was teaching at a university and had no degree at all. He had worked at Ford or General Motors, can't remember which, as a "crash test" engineer for over 35 years. The physics of crash testing before computers. I shudder to think.

They do?

Teaching is about relating to people, not being smart. Engineers are generally nerds, and are foten diagnosed with various degrees of autism, which means they have trouble relating to people.

Engineers might be smart, but good teachers are empathic. Think about it for a while and you will even admit I am right. those teachers you admire were the exception, and they were good because they were more than smart. This is one thing Oprah got right, people learn from emotions, not facts.

Sorry man. That's ridiculous. Just because someone has "problem solving abilities", doesn't mean they are nerds, have autism and have trouble relating to people.

It's like saying all actors are stupid. Or all Republicans are racist (I know some that aren't racist, but they certainly are upset with the direction of the current Republican party).

I work with a group of engineers and there is certainly one who is a constant whiner. Another gives the impression of being always angry. But the others? The head electrical engineer is a woman with two kids whose husband is a teacher. Both her and her husband are the nicest people. Two mechanical engineers married to sisters. One just announced his wife is having another baby. Both of them funny, witty, helpful. One tutors physics at the local university on weekends. Head of the lab, doctorate in physics, very nice guy. Another doctor of physics whose specialty is spectral analysis, we swap jokes.

Then, because of the line of work and the fact that 60% of the products are sold overseas, nearly every day there are engineers from other companies visiting, working on projects. Many are from overseas. From them, I get the impression of what people think about the US overseas. You can imagine what engineers think of people who don't believe in evolution. They are certainly incredulous.

I know that I'm much different than the other engineers. I didn't start studying until I was 30. I was in the military and went to school on the GI Bill. Most of these people are verbally much more polished than I am. Occasionally, an "OH fuck" slips out. I know that I tend to be physically stronger. Military training affects you for your entire life. Many engineers have parents who paid for everything and they finished school at a young age.

But I believe this idea that engineers have all these "mental and social deficiencies" is a bunch of baloney. This kind of thing gets started from people who are jealous or feel inferior and are simply trying to build themselves up.

The same thing happens with managers. They can get an undeserved reputation for being an asshole when they aren't.

Now I don't live in a world of rainbows and lollipops. Sure, there are some people I can't stand. But you can bet, they don't know it. When you work in a "profession", you have to act in a "professional" manner.

Actually, engineers are a lot like basket ball players. You can have a basket ball star in high school, but when they go to college, they are surrounded by other "stars". Some work harder. Some lose confidence and drop out.

Same with engineers. Many times, they were the smartest kid in every class in high school. They get into college and suddenly, they may only be "average". Then out in business, they may not even be that.

 

[clanthar]

engineering is hard

 

[rightwinger]

College professors often have no training in teaching; most don't have education degrees; and while there are some who are brilliant there are absolutely some who suck. Those hired to teach mathematics, science, and engineering courses generally have a high degree of proficiency in their subject. But many can't seem to communicate it to their class. It takes a lot of work to learn from a person like that.

And then when you have so many math and science teachers these days who have been imported from Asia or some other part of the world because of their expertise, who can barely speak English and do so with a really heavy accent, it makes it doubly difficult for the students.

But I am not of the camp that suggest engineers are undereducated or can't think critically or abstractly. A good design engineer has to. And some are absolutely briliant.

Many? Or some?

These are some pretty smart people. They get the hang of teaching, for the most part, during the first semester they teach.

But it's true about the accents. Engineering degrees today mean several courses in physics. You may have a physics course that concentrates on heat transfer, volume, fluid dynamics. Another one on only "spectrum". Another one on the physics of digital circuitry, another on analog components and so on.

I had one physics teacher from Iraq that taught "spectrum analysis". He only taught part time because his other job was as a research scientist using lasers in dermatology. That meant the had access to lots of lasers, red, green, and all different sizes. Which he brought to class and set up with mirrors, filters and beam splitters. It was amazing.

Another physics teacher I had was teaching at a university and had no degree at all. He had worked at Ford or General Motors, can't remember which, as a "crash test" engineer for over 35 years. The physics of crash testing before computers. I shudder to think.

My experience was my High School instructors were much better "teachers" than my College Professors. In college they presented the material rather than try to teach

 

[Foxfyre]

I have to agree that I don't see engineers as socially challenged either. A lot of my son's friends when into engineering which is no doubt why he did also--he found that he had a high aptitude for it though and he loved it--and all of them are really quite normal, socialble, caring, and sociall competent people albeit probably above average in intelligence. Ditto for engineers who have been in my classes and are among our friends.

But when it comes to college professors, I do know that some are good teachers, but I don't know if MOST technical types are that good at teaching.

My son is brilliant teaching piano--can break it down into manageable bites and brings his students along methodically and competently. And he is quite well rounded and socially competent. But as a certified professional engineer, when he tries to teach an engineering concept, he gets ahead of his student and doesn't always realize that they aren't following the jargon and language and basic concepts that are as common and normal as breathing to him. He has some of the same problem teaching computer concepts.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

I have to agree that I don't see engineers as socially challenged either. A lot of my son's friends when into engineering which is no doubt why he did also--he found that he had a high aptitude for it though and he loved it--and all of them are really quite normal, socialble, caring, and sociall competent people albeit probably above average in intelligence.

But when it comes to college professors, I do know that some are good teachers, but I don't know if MOST technical types are not that good at teaching.

...

I believe this phenomenon is caused mostly by universities awarding tenure strictly on research and publications, ignoring how well the professor can teach.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have to agree that I don't see engineers as socially challenged either. A lot of my son's friends when into engineering which is no doubt why he did also--he found that he had a high aptitude for it though and he loved it--and all of them are really quite normal, socialble, caring, and sociall competent people albeit probably above average in intelligence.

But when it comes to college professors, I do know that some are good teachers, but I don't know if MOST technical types are not that good at teaching.

...

I believe this phenomenon is caused mostly by universities awarding tenure strictly on research and publications, ignoring how well the professor can teach.

There is probably some truth to that. In the academic world it is publish or perish which explains why there are some really BAD academic publications, flawed concepts, and bogus research that has become part of the whole. And those professors who have to resort to that to earn tenure probably aren't that proficient as teachers either.