Why do the Democrats keep saying the Republicans want to end medicare or S.S.

[rightwinger]

There seems to no shortage of plans floating around but here's another one, the Lieberman Coburn plan. Unlike the Ryan plan, it preserves Medicare in it's basic form but members are going to pay more. The plan features a $550 deducible, a sliding copay beginning at 20% and ending at 5% for catastrophic illness, reduced benefits for high incomes, and reduced coverage by medigap policies, and higher premiums for part B insurance. Plus eligibility increase 2mo/yr until it reaches 67.

Painfully, but unlike Ryan plan it preserves Medicare.

http://coburn.senate.gov/public//in...&File_id=c2fdf21b-a808-4d65-8ecd-3f583d50f6b5

http://coburn.senate.gov/public//in...&File_id=e8bb9044-1555-4e33-ad74-cf809c776e02

http://coburn.senate.gov/public//in...&File_id=f08e2591-107e-4b0d-a63b-f30a978bc867

I like it better

You have to cough up more but the catastrophic vulnerability is not as bad

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

1. Medicare will be insolvent in 2017 say the Trustees

Trustees Report Summary

2. Social Security will be bankrupt 2037

The Dem's claim to "protect" SS & Medicare only guarantee their demise. They need to be modified to guarantee their long-term viability. Revenue enhancers would be a good idea too. I like closing loop-holes, ending subsidies & foreign aid, then impose taxes on Wall Street for short-sales and capital gains. Going after the Hedge Funds is a good idea too.

Capital gains are already taxed.
What good would it do to tax short sales?
What rate?

 

[rightwinger]

And it's somehow my responsibility to pay for your health insurance?
You'll point out article and section of the US Constitution that justify that, won't you?

Well, actually, by LAW, it is. Who do you think pays for emergency room? Duh!

I pay for my own health care, thank you. I expect you to do the same. If I run up bills, I pay them why can't you?

I did not ask if there was a law. I asked you for Constitutional justification which you can't provide.

You do not pay for your own healthcare. You belong to a collective insurance plan where others are there to pay for any major expense if you need it

Until Obamacare, the problem was what happens if the insurance companies refuse to cover you? What happens if you own you own business and don't have the large pool to reduce your costs?

Constitutionally, Congress is tasked to provide for the general welfare. If caring for sick Americans is not general welfare...nothing is

 

[ShackledNation]

Why do the Democrats keep saying the Republicans want to end medicare or S.S.

Because some of us (like me) do want to end medicare and S.S. Of course not immediately, it has to be phased out. But I hope both programs are gone before I start paying too much into them.

 

[Charles_Main]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

Actually it is part true. Those of us who are willing to even admit that they both have very serious Structural problems going forward. Are in a way seeking to end them, as we know them at least. However the question we should be asking is if Democrats are for the poor and social Welfare. Then why are they not for ending them as we know them as well? They are both failing, and are unsustainable currently. We must make changes to insure their survival, and our nations survival. We on the right want to change them, to save them, not to destroy them.

That is the big lie the Liberals tell, Nothing new, it's what they do.

 

[rdean]

they aren't debating ryan's plan.

Hello!!!!

They already voted on it. Call it what it is. The REPUBLICAN PLAN. Get it? It's NOT the Ryan Plan, it's the REPUBLICAN PLAN! Got it? Good!

they aren't debating the Ryan plan..

Republican Plan.

 

[rdean]

And it's somehow my responsibility to pay for your health insurance?
You'll point out article and section of the US Constitution that justify that, won't you?

Well, actually, by LAW, it is. Who do you think pays for emergency room? Duh!

I pay for my own health care, thank you. I expect you to do the same. If I run up bills, I pay them why can't you?

I did not ask if there was a law. I asked you for Constitutional justification which you can't provide.

You don't pay for shit. The number one cause of bankruptcy are "medical bills". If you don't have health care, you will end up in the emergency room which we all pay for. And without Obama's "Romneycare", if you got sick, your health care company could drop you in about a hundred different ways and you would still end up in the emergency room with all of us paying your bills after you lost everything you own.

 

[ShackledNation]

Well, actually, by LAW, it is. Who do you think pays for emergency room? Duh!

I pay for my own health care, thank you. I expect you to do the same. If I run up bills, I pay them why can't you?

I did not ask if there was a law. I asked you for Constitutional justification which you can't provide.

You don't pay for shit. The number one cause of bankruptcy are "medical bills". If you don't have health care, you will end up in the emergency room which we all pay for. And without Obama's "Romneycare", if you got sick, your health care company could drop you in about a hundred different ways and you would still end up in the emergency room with all of us paying your bills after you lost everything you own.

So the problem is high medical costs. And those costs are high because of government. Government mandates that insurance companies cover procedures like acupuncture and tanning that should not be covered at all. They are high because during the Great Depression wages were preventing from rising, so employer-based insurance was born, and now there is a middle man between the insured and the insurers. Adding government as another middle man will make matters worse. And if you are insured and you get sick, you don't just get dropped. That defeats the purpose of an insurance company.

 

[Charles_Main]

Well, actually, by LAW, it is. Who do you think pays for emergency room? Duh!

I pay for my own health care, thank you. I expect you to do the same. If I run up bills, I pay them why can't you?

I did not ask if there was a law. I asked you for Constitutional justification which you can't provide.

You do not pay for your own healthcare. You belong to a collective insurance plan where others are there to pay for any major expense if you need it

Until Obamacare, the problem was what happens if the insurance companies refuse to cover you? What happens if you own you own business and don't have the large pool to reduce your costs?

Constitutionally, Congress is tasked to provide for the general welfare. If caring for sick Americans is not general welfare...nothing is

Again for your Liberal Idiots that do not even know how to read the Constitution. The so called General Welfare clause is actually just one statement in the PREAMBLE to the constitution. THE PREAMBLE is meant as a list of reasons why we were writing the constitution, Not a list of Powers. It does not specifically call out the Congress or any other branch of the Government in that Clause. It simply says were creating this government for among other reasons "to Provide for the General Welfare"

Which at that time did not mean welfare as in SS, Free Health care, and everything else. it meant to Provide for the General Well Being of the country, and again. It did not specifically task the congress with this task. It simply is stated as one of the reasons we created our own Government.

For nearly 2 Centuries after those words were written, and passed into Law, There was ABSOLUTELY no Federal Government Welfare Programs at all. Yet these infantile Liberals want to know claim the Preamble is not just a Preamble. They want to claim that even though the founders of this country, and none of their decendants for almost 200 Years, Passed any kind of Welfare Programs at all at the federal Level, That Big Government Social Welfare Programs is what the Founders meant when they wrote the Words General Welfare in the Preamble. Just so you libs get it, They call it a Preamble for a reason. BECAUSE IT COMES before the real Heart of the document.

I would be willing to bet if Jefferson and the rest were here today, and saw what modern Day Liberals were trying to make out of the General Welfare Line in the Preamble. That Jefferson would sigh, take a pen and cross it out and replace it with General Well Being.

Reminds of of a quote from Madison.

He said and I paraphrase look it up if you must "If the government can do anything that can be done with money, in the name of the General Welfare, Then it is no longer a Government of Specifically Enumerated Powers, and instead A government of unlimited ones"

Not exact but that is close to what he said, and he was Dead balls on. If our Government can justify any kind spending as providing for the General Welfare (which is a ridiculously Broad Statement) Then our government can do anything it wants, and it's powers are unlimited. Is that really what Americans want now? A federal Government with nearly unlimited power over us all?

I sure hope not.

 

[Greenbeard]

Again for your Liberal Idiots that do not even know how to read the Constitution. The so called General Welfare clause is actually just one statement in the PREAMBLE to the constitution.

Well, that's embarrassing. The general welfare also appears in Article I, Section 8 ("The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"). That's generally what people are referring to. Though the preamble is lovely, too.

 

[rdean]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

I notices that several people answered the question including me:

You are wrong. Medicare is a government program to help the elderly. When I was a kid, there were always stories in the news about the elderly living on cat food or dog food. Health care companies don't want to insure them because it's expensive.

How many insurance policies does it take to give the CEO of Cigna or Aetna a $100,000,000.00 bonus? They won't "waste" that money on "old people".

So in the Ryan Plan (now the Republican Plan) the elderly would be given a few thousand dollars and told to "go buy insurance". Only, it's not enough money and no one will sell them insurance. That's the facts. We've been down this road already, so we know where it leads. If you don't mind the suffering of elderly Americans, which many Republicans don't, then stick to your guns to stick it to elderly Americans. There's always the emergency room at 10 to 100 times the cost. A bill WE pay. We may pay it anyway, but not at that high rate.

And you never posted again. Did you learn what you needed to know?

 

[Londoner]

One wonders if the OP is an apparatchik, a functionary of movement conservatism - in which case he is consciously repeating the lie that the GOP is saving the Big Three. This lie is aimed at poor voters and seniors who believe the conservative party is going to conserve the America of the 50s, when hard working Americans could look forward to a retirement that was far better than their Soviet counterparts, whose government left the bedraggled masses in total poverty. (The Soviets set up an economy which gave all the power to the wealthy few)

Or,

Is the OP one of the dupes that Thomas Frank speaks of in "What's The Matter with Kansas"? - a book about how corporations & the ultra wealthy created "backlash culture" to fool poor people into voting against their economic interests. This culture is symbolized by the woman who famously screamed "get your government hands off my medicare". The point of FOX News and Talk Radio is to draft the non-wealthy into the movement. (The wealthy don't need to be drafted because they have an economic incentive to support programs which concentrate wealth and political power)

Either way, if the OP read Grover Norquist, he would realize that the new GOP has very specific plans to end these programs - which programs allowed the postwar middle class to buy more goods - which lead to the most powerful consumption economy on earth. FYI: did you see what happened when Reagan started to tinker with the middle class entitlement system and the cost of labor? The Middle Class lost purchasing power. And how did the Reagan Revolution respond to the loss of middle class purchasing power? It created a credit and debt economy to sustain consumption. America went on 30 year bubble-&-credit binge to make up for the fact that the old drivers of consumption -- wages, benefits, entitlements -- had been destroyed in order to give more money to the ultra wealthy. Indeed, we put consumption and the middle class on Master Cards and Visas. We did this to cover up the fact that the money was not trickling down as promised.

America swallowed poison in 1980.

(psst: If you undermine the things which enable middle class spending, you kill the economy)

(psst: Reaganomics does not get the concept of consumer demand, nor why you need a solvent underclass to buy things. Entitlements and easy access to affordable health care & public universities are not hand-outs, rather, they enable poor people to spend and pump money into the economy)

(Without financially healthy consumers -- without the historic demand created by the postwar New Deal policies -- the capitalist won't add jobs . . . no matter how many tax breaks you give him)

Welcome to the end. The poison we swallowed in 1980 is finally taking effect.

(morons. you were duped by people who let corporations roll the country)

 

[NYcarbineer]

So other than borrowing more money that we don't have, and taxing the rich until they are poor; what plan do the Democrats have to fix Social Security and medicare?

You simply rationalize the revenue with the spending.

So spend more and tax more.

That's what I thought.

Old people won't stop getting sick and needing care just because you end or cut back Medicare.

It's a zero sum game.

 

[ShackledNation]

Again for your Liberal Idiots that do not even know how to read the Constitution. The so called General Welfare clause is actually just one statement in the PREAMBLE to the constitution.

Well, that's embarrassing. The general welfare also appears in Article I, Section 8 ("The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"). That's generally what people are referring to. Though the preamble is lovely, too.

The general welfare clause refers to the intent of enumerated powers, and is not a power in itself. For example, Congress can only levy taxes "that provide for the general welfare and common defence" and cannot levy taxes with the intent of, say, committing genocide. If "to provide for the general welfare" was interpreted to mean the government can do anything it claims provides for the general welfare, then the enumerated powers are redundant and the Constitution useless. It renders the idea of limited government meaningless.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

Ryan's plan ends medicare. Period. it replaces Medicare with an entirely different system.

they aren't debating ryan's plan.

Oh I'm sorry, I mistakenly thought the poster I responded to was talking about Ryan's plan for medicare.

Probably the words 'In Ryan's plan' that misled me.

Retard.

 

[Jitto]

i do not think its a false statement..

 

[Chris]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

Conservative Republicans never did want Social Security, and now think they can convert it to a giant 401(k) plan. (White House memo on Social Security privatization) The current strategy was developed in 1982 primarily by the libertarian Cato Institute which opposes almost all government programs. Gingrich recently explained it as "shifting fundamentally all Social Security retirement benefits to the personal accounts over the long run." Bush has pushed this strategy forward with by hyping a non-existent crisis which Cato said would be needed to sell privatization, and through his 2001 privatisation commission.

Bush's Plan to Privatize Social Security, Bush Social Security Plan

 

[Chris]

Ryan plan to kill Medicare....

What Happens To Each Person On Medicare

- Again, starting in 2022.
- Each person on Medicare would be allotted a certain dollar amount from the government to help them buy private health insurance.
- RyMed calls this a "premium support" payment.
- Next each person would chose from a list of government-approved private health insurance plans.
- Then the government's allotted payment for that Medicare recipient goes directly to the health insurer they chose.
- The Medicare recipient pays the difference between the insurance plans costs and what the government has allotted for them.

What Does That Mean? In Dollars?

- Here's how the Congressional Budget Office looked at that in dollars.
- CBO estimated that in 2022, the government would allot $8000 for a 65-year-old, to go toward buying a health insurance plan.
- CBO estimated that the 65-year-old would then pay an additional $12,500 for that plan and for all out-of-pocket costs.

American Sauce: The Ryan Medicare Plan – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

 

[Full-Auto]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

Conservative Republicans never did want Social Security, and now think they can convert it to a giant 401(k) plan. (White House memo on Social Security privatization) The current strategy was developed in 1982 primarily by the libertarian Cato Institute which opposes almost all government programs. Gingrich recently explained it as "shifting fundamentally all Social Security retirement benefits to the personal accounts over the long run." Bush has pushed this strategy forward with by hyping a non-existent crisis which Cato said would be needed to sell privatization, and through his 2001 privatisation commission.

Bush's Plan to Privatize Social Security, Bush Social Security Plan

LOL Non existent.


Yet Obumble stated clearly he couldnt gaurantee the checks would go out.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

This is totally a false statement. In Ryans plan he wants it reformed so we have something for us and our children. Plus, his current plan does not affect anyone 55 and above. If something is not done there would be nothing left for us. I know our family is preparing for this. Savings, 401Ks , husband military retirement ect .. We are not going to prepare for us to get social security because their is a lot of doubt that we will even receive it and the way Obama is going that doubt is becoming reality

Conservative Republicans never did want Social Security, and now think they can convert it to a giant 401(k) plan. (White House memo on Social Security privatization) The current strategy was developed in 1982 primarily by the libertarian Cato Institute which opposes almost all government programs. Gingrich recently explained it as "shifting fundamentally all Social Security retirement benefits to the personal accounts over the long run." Bush has pushed this strategy forward with by hyping a non-existent crisis which Cato said would be needed to sell privatization, and through his 2001 privatisation commission.

Bush's Plan to Privatize Social Security, Bush Social Security Plan

I wish my contributions were in a 401K. 12% of my income for decades.
I could get twice the annual benefit and have hundreds of thousands to leave to my kids.
And I wouldn't have to depend on the assclowns in DC.