Why do some take belief in Global Warming as a political issue?

[daveman]

Ok. Can you explain why you think it's a good idea to treat sewage?

I said you can stop blathering now.

Just asking a question, not blathering.

Why do you think treating sewage is a good idea?

You're not asking a question, you're seeking legitimacy for your nonsense.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I said you can stop blathering now.

Just asking a question, not blathering.

Why do you think treating sewage is a good idea?

You're not asking a question, you're seeking legitimacy for your nonsense.

So now you're saying that treating sewage is non sense?

Which is it? Do you favor dealing with this man made impact or not?

 

[westwall]

I'll share a picture with you. This is North Korea at night. A environmental wasteland and looky here. It's dark at night. Just like you wish. Now look at South Korea. The average life expectancy in North Korea is one year less than in South Korea. And the quality of life is significantly less as well.

Is that really what you want?

I think this quote is a pretty good one. You say that N. Korea is an "environmental wasteland"

So, again, you do seem to acknowledge that man is capable of laying waste to his environment. Comparing activities in S.America to N. Korea, would you consider S. America an environmental waste land?

Or do you reserve your negative environmental assessments for places your find politically distasteful?

Are there other "environmental wastelands" you can tell us about?

Of course. Look at any socialist country from the former Warsaw Pact. Most of them have areas that are hazardous for humans to live in. They so far have not spent a dime cleaning them up. When they were under Soviet rule they were pretty dark at night too.

 

[westwall]

An environmental waste land? Are you acknowledging mans ability to lay waste to his environment? "look what we have wrought!" You seem to say.

At any rate, what makes you correlate electric lights with these things? Do you think I mean that lights poison the air or water or something?

The lights only demonstrate the scale of man's ability to change his environment.

Now... reread that last sentence... because I know what you read was something like "turning on the bathroom light kills spotted owls..." But that's not what I said, is it?

We have learned to control some very impressive aspects of our living environment. We have turned darkness to light on a near unimaginable scale... until we just look at the picture. We are capable of that.

To think that a species capable of that is not capable of creating other impacts of similar scale is not the rational belief of a "scientist'.

Absolutely. What, were you not paying attention? I merely pointed that out because here is your perfect country. It's dark at night, quality of life sucks (unless you consider a violent dictator OK) and it's STILL AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER! In other words man can screw things up quite nicle at the local level and looky here is a ideal country (by your stated criteria) and it SUCKS!

Congrats you may actually be learning something.

I haven't stated any criteria. This entire "lights = bad, dark = good" is something you dreamed up. I've said no such thing.

Ahhh, but by implication you have. You rail about the fact that we create so much light it is visible from space. Either that is OK with you, and I doubt you would mention a simple fact like that, or it is bad, and you are pointing out how evil we are for making so much light that we are polluting space with it.

Make up your mind.

 

[daveman]

Just asking a question, not blathering.

Why do you think treating sewage is a good idea?

You're not asking a question, you're seeking legitimacy for your nonsense.

So now you're saying that treating sewage is non sense?

Which is it? Do you favor dealing with this man made impact or not?

If you look closely, you'll see me not playing your stupid little game.

 

[Sweet Willy]

So again... looking at sewage treatment, this was something that we had to figure out to deal with once populations began to grow exponentially during the industrial revolution. We found that the impact of more humans, living closely together in cities, created some rather serious problems with disease and water quality. These problems still exist in third world countries where sanitation is not what we have come to expect here. We can see the results in mortality rates (especially child mortality), life expectancy and related diseases. Human impact is readily observable on our environment simply by the waste we excrete into our environment. Left untreated in areas where we are exposed to it affects us in a negative way.

We have a direct impact on the environment we live in on the most basic levels. It took leaps of human knowledge to begin to understand the connections between things as simple and now taken for granted, as properly disposing of own feces. That didn't just come naturally. It took quite a long time before we even recognized it was a problem. It was just "natural" for those people to get sick and die. It was God or the Earth just doing what the Earth does.

For people to know, accept and take for granted things like micro biology and at the same time dismiss, wholly, the possibility that man can cause large scale problems for his health and survival on Earth, is only one thing: Sheer, willful, ignorance.

 

[westwall]

So again... looking at sewage treatment, this was something that we had to figure out to deal with once populations began to grow exponentially during the industrial revolution. We found that the impact of more humans, living closely together in cities, created some rather serious problems with disease and water quality. These problems still exist in third world countries where sanitation is not what we have come to expect here. We can see the results in mortality rates (especially child mortality), life expectancy and related diseases. Human impact is readily observable on our environment simply by the waste we excrete into our environment. Left untreated in areas where we are exposed to it affects us in a negative way.

We have a direct impact on the environment we live in on the most basic levels. It took leaps of human knowledge to begin to understand the connections between things as simple and now taken for granted, as properly disposing of own feces. That didn't just come naturally. It took quite a long time before we even recognized it was a problem. It was just "natural" for those people to get sick and die. It was God or the Earth just doing what the Earth does.

For people to know, accept and take for granted things like micro biology and at the same time dismiss, wholly, the possibility that man can cause large scale problems for his health and survival on Earth, is only one thing: Sheer, willful, ignorance.

For someone who thinks they're so clever you really don't know much about history do you? Try looking up the Minoan civilization. They had an excellent plumbing system in their cities 6,000 years BCE. The Romans too had excellent sewer systems that in Rome are still in use. At its height Rome had a population higher then the current one. In antiquity. You see mankind is pretty clever. It's amazing that people such as yourself who think they are so smart, know so little about mans history.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Absolutely. What, were you not paying attention? I merely pointed that out because here is your perfect country. It's dark at night, quality of life sucks (unless you consider a violent dictator OK) and it's STILL AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER! In other words man can screw things up quite nicle at the local level and looky here is a ideal country (by your stated criteria) and it SUCKS!

Congrats you may actually be learning something.

I haven't stated any criteria. This entire "lights = bad, dark = good" is something you dreamed up. I've said no such thing.

Ahhh, but by implication you have. You rail about the fact that we create so much light it is visible from space. Either that is OK with you, and I doubt you would mention a simple fact like that, or it is bad, and you are pointing out how evil we are for making so much light that we are polluting space with it.

Make up your mind.

You are taking liberties that you shouldn't. I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are making connections of good or bad that are irrelevant. Some may say it's good, some may say it's bad. I don;t make that call. The picture only demonstrates man's capacity to do something on a global scale. It shows what we are capable of. I am not weighing in on good or bad. It just is an example of what kind of things we can do. If you want to say it is a good thing, then excellent. Light has done WONDERFUL things. But that's beside the point. Man made that wonderful HUGE impact.

To argue that man is not capable of a similar scale negative impact is willful ignorance. If we can create that kind of impact, (you understand that "impact" is not a negative or positive word, right?) then we can surely create other similar scale impacts. We could for instance, irradiate that much of the planet...right? If we can light that much of the planet, we are certainly capable of irradiating that much of the planet. Would you agree?

 

[skookerasbil]

All the ******* nutty-ass k00ks talk about is "the science".

Can one of them please show me where the science is mattering in the real world?

Nobody gives a flying **** about global warming anymore and its not even debatable. So please with "the science".

Recent Pew Poll on the concerns of Americans. And Solyndra et. all. have all happened since then............

Its only on the minds of the hopelessly duped and the hard core k00k environmentalists. Which is to say..........the ******* science doesnt matter s0ns!!! ( and Crap and Tax is dead)



Who's losing?

 

[westwall]

I haven't stated any criteria. This entire "lights = bad, dark = good" is something you dreamed up. I've said no such thing.

Ahhh, but by implication you have. You rail about the fact that we create so much light it is visible from space. Either that is OK with you, and I doubt you would mention a simple fact like that, or it is bad, and you are pointing out how evil we are for making so much light that we are polluting space with it.

Make up your mind.

You are taking liberties that you shouldn't. I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are making connections of good or bad that are irrelevant. Some may say it's good, some may say it's bad. I don;t make that call. The picture only demonstrates man's capacity to do something on a global scale. It shows what we are capable of. I am not weighing in on good or bad. It just is an example of what kind of things we can do. If you want to say it is a good thing, then excellent. Light has done WONDERFUL things. But that's beside the point. Man made that wonderful HUGE impact.

To argue that man is not capable of a similar scale negative impact is willful ignorance. If we can create that kind of impact, (you understand that "impact" is not a negative or positive word, right?) then we can surely create other similar scale impacts. We could for instance, irradiate that much of the planet...right? If we can light that much of the planet, we are certainly capable of irradiating that much of the planet. Would you agree?

Then why make the statement? Once again, make up your mind. I take no liberties at all. I can read what you write. The fact that you try and duck their meaning tells me an awful lot about you.

 

[skookerasbil]

But keep coming with the alarmist fAiL strategies FTMFL.

 

[Sweet Willy]

So again... looking at sewage treatment, this was something that we had to figure out to deal with once populations began to grow exponentially during the industrial revolution. We found that the impact of more humans, living closely together in cities, created some rather serious problems with disease and water quality. These problems still exist in third world countries where sanitation is not what we have come to expect here. We can see the results in mortality rates (especially child mortality), life expectancy and related diseases. Human impact is readily observable on our environment simply by the waste we excrete into our environment. Left untreated in areas where we are exposed to it affects us in a negative way.

We have a direct impact on the environment we live in on the most basic levels. It took leaps of human knowledge to begin to understand the connections between things as simple and now taken for granted, as properly disposing of own feces. That didn't just come naturally. It took quite a long time before we even recognized it was a problem. It was just "natural" for those people to get sick and die. It was God or the Earth just doing what the Earth does.

For people to know, accept and take for granted things like micro biology and at the same time dismiss, wholly, the possibility that man can cause large scale problems for his health and survival on Earth, is only one thing: Sheer, willful, ignorance.

For someone who thinks they're so clever you really don't know much about history do you? Try looking up the Minoan civilization. They had an excellent plumbing system in their cities 6,000 years BCE. The Romans too had excellent sewer systems that in Rome are still in use. At its height Rome had a population higher then the current one. In antiquity. You see mankind is pretty clever. It's amazing that people such as yourself who think they are so smart, know so little about mans history.

Dude... why do you think they had to figure out how to move the waste? It was a problem of human impact in their cities. No different than New York.

We had to build waste systems here for the same reasons. Tossing it into the street was a problem. A man made problem. Even after that we've had to learn to clean it out of the water.

The fact that other civilizations recognized that humans have an impact on their environment changes the example how?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Ahhh, but by implication you have. You rail about the fact that we create so much light it is visible from space. Either that is OK with you, and I doubt you would mention a simple fact like that, or it is bad, and you are pointing out how evil we are for making so much light that we are polluting space with it.

Make up your mind.

You are taking liberties that you shouldn't. I haven't implied anything of the sort. You are making connections of good or bad that are irrelevant. Some may say it's good, some may say it's bad. I don;t make that call. The picture only demonstrates man's capacity to do something on a global scale. It shows what we are capable of. I am not weighing in on good or bad. It just is an example of what kind of things we can do. If you want to say it is a good thing, then excellent. Light has done WONDERFUL things. But that's beside the point. Man made that wonderful HUGE impact.

To argue that man is not capable of a similar scale negative impact is willful ignorance. If we can create that kind of impact, (you understand that "impact" is not a negative or positive word, right?) then we can surely create other similar scale impacts. We could for instance, irradiate that much of the planet...right? If we can light that much of the planet, we are certainly capable of irradiating that much of the planet. Would you agree?

Then why make the statement? Once again, make up your mind. I take no liberties at all. I can read what you write. The fact that you try and duck their meaning tells me an awful lot about you.

I made no statement. You have several times now openly stated that you thought I meant this or thought I meant that or you saw an implication here or there. The only statements were made up in your own mind. I never stated that light was pollution or good or bad or caused any sort of problem.

We created that light. That is the only point.

The rest of this is just your imagination, punching rather wildly at shadows.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Excellent.

You do then understand that in the same area of fire we can make trees and such disappear?

Yes, when parts of the Amazon rainforest are burned, the trees that burn disappear.
When widfires occur, the grass and brush that burn also disappear.
Is this some sort of secret you imagine you've discovered?

So you understand fire and heat and burning forest. That's good.

That's all I was asking, if you understood man's use of fire to create heat.

It's pretty basic stuff, isn't it?

I certainly understand that fire, man-made or natural, releases heat.
I also understand that heat radiates into space, do you?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Yes, when parts of the Amazon rainforest are burned, the trees that burn disappear.
When widfires occur, the grass and brush that burn also disappear.
Is this some sort of secret you imagine you've discovered?

So you understand fire and heat and burning forest. That's good.

That's all I was asking, if you understood man's use of fire to create heat.

It's pretty basic stuff, isn't it?

I certainly understand that fire, man-made or natural, releases heat.
I also understand that heat radiates into space, do you?

Yes.

 

[Sweet Willy]

The simple reduction being this:

You can SEE that man is capable of this amazing feat of lighting up giant masses of the planet.

But you reject that the same people capable of this, could possibly effect anything else on this sort of scale?

This can only be done with light? Not with a poisonous gas or with heat or cold or fire or radiation or water or dust or smoke? We couldn't create anything else man made to have the scale of impact that lights have had on entire continents?

 

[skookerasbil]

The simple reduction being this:

You can SEE that man is capable of this amazing feat of lighting up giant masses of the planet.

But you reject that the same people capable of this, could possibly effect anything else on this sort of scale?

Then I'd suggest moving to one of those darkened places you see on the map s0n!!!

You're going to be in the box for decades before fossil fuels go anywhere!!!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you understand fire and heat and burning forest. That's good.

That's all I was asking, if you understood man's use of fire to create heat.

It's pretty basic stuff, isn't it?

I certainly understand that fire, man-made or natural, releases heat.
I also understand that heat radiates into space, do you?

Yes.

Excellent!

 

[Sweet Willy]

The simple reduction being this:

You can SEE that man is capable of this amazing feat of lighting up giant masses of the planet.

But you reject that the same people capable of this, could possibly effect anything else on this sort of scale?

Then I'd suggest moving to one of those darkened places you see on the map s0n!!!

You're going to be in the box for decades before fossil fuels go anywhere!!!

What is this inclination to think that I want to live in the dark? Why is it that because I ask you to acknowledge this picture you think i am against light? And no one even mentioned fossil fuels.

 

[westwall]

So again... looking at sewage treatment, this was something that we had to figure out to deal with once populations began to grow exponentially during the industrial revolution. We found that the impact of more humans, living closely together in cities, created some rather serious problems with disease and water quality. These problems still exist in third world countries where sanitation is not what we have come to expect here. We can see the results in mortality rates (especially child mortality), life expectancy and related diseases. Human impact is readily observable on our environment simply by the waste we excrete into our environment. Left untreated in areas where we are exposed to it affects us in a negative way.

We have a direct impact on the environment we live in on the most basic levels. It took leaps of human knowledge to begin to understand the connections between things as simple and now taken for granted, as properly disposing of own feces. That didn't just come naturally. It took quite a long time before we even recognized it was a problem. It was just "natural" for those people to get sick and die. It was God or the Earth just doing what the Earth does.

For people to know, accept and take for granted things like micro biology and at the same time dismiss, wholly, the possibility that man can cause large scale problems for his health and survival on Earth, is only one thing: Sheer, willful, ignorance.

For someone who thinks they're so clever you really don't know much about history do you? Try looking up the Minoan civilization. They had an excellent plumbing system in their cities 6,000 years BCE. The Romans too had excellent sewer systems that in Rome are still in use. At its height Rome had a population higher then the current one. In antiquity. You see mankind is pretty clever. It's amazing that people such as yourself who think they are so smart, know so little about mans history.

Dude... why do you think they had to figure out how to move the waste? It was a problem of human impact in their cities. No different than New York.

We had to build waste systems here for the same reasons. Tossing it into the street was a problem. A man made problem. Even after that we've had to learn to clean it out of the water.

The fact that other civilizations recognized that humans have an impact on their environment changes the example how?

Trying to duck your statement about all of the sewage treatment being invented because of the impact of industrialisation? Here's the deal. Man progresses. The industrial revolution made it possible for man to elevate himself to the level he is. The Third World is the problem now. Why is it the enviro nuts want the whole world to be relegated back to the Third World?

Man will find out ways to make his life better. 100 years ago it took a minimum of five days to cross the country via train. Now we do it in hours. Why is it so bad for man to be able to do that?

You tell us. What is your point? You keep spouting off a bunch of factoids but you havn't said what you want to say. So just do it and get it over with. You're not educated enough to try and use the Socratic method on us.