Why do I have to pay for society's screw-ups?

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Patrick2

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screw ups? I thought you were talking about the bankers.
Are you confused what forum section you're in?? :confused:

And the geezers paid for medicare and social security so it is the fraud and theft by corporastions and neocons that are the screw ups.
Old people end up taking out of SS 4-10 times what they put in. Read up. :rolleyes:
You actually have those ratios right Pat, however, a good retirement plan, designed to grow from real investments could provide for that, IF an individual began paying as they are required to do with SS, at the beginning of their life's work. They don't all operate like the SS system, or the labor unions.

I'll just say this; if there had been no SS, or if I could've opped out of it, I would've made it my business to invest in a mix of bonds, CDs, stocks, even annuities to reduce risk and to grow my money into more than the $1,200 a month I get now.

Almost al the problems we have with healthcar stem from government mandates and interference, and not just on the federal level. Maine, at this moment in time, has only a single health insurer operating there.
Absolutely dead on target - bullseye. Thanks.
 

toxicmedia

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The issue raised wasn't socialized health plans. Everyone knows health care costs are high - I personally pay about $10,000/year in premiums. The costs all stem, one way or another, to government malfeasance, but the cure is ever more government control? And you have it exactly backwards - going down the obamacare path will eventually lead to eight-month waiting lists for eg MRIs, with people dying on the waiting list, and rationed care, with specific decisions about who should live and who should die, as is done with the NHS's death panel (N.I.C.E.) in the UK.
I met with Canadian and British providers at a convention/conference back in 2005. That whole "waiting 6 months or longer to see a specialist in the UK and Canada" isn't true. The average wait for an MRI is two weeks in Canada, and about 3 in England. I'm interested in seeing anything you have read about that long waiting period that wasn't published by anti healthcare reform folks. I'm not doubting you, just skeptical because I'm only hearin that complaint from rightwing Americans.
I've seen tons of stuff contradicting your claims, but I'll let you tutor yourself. It's easy:

Google nhs and horror story, national institute for clinical excellence and protest, nhs hospital conditions, nhs and sent home to die, etc etc etc. All you can stomach is just a few clicks away - read up.
Check this out. 'Evil and Orwellian'

When I googled NHS horror story...up came a ton of right wing web sites in the US. It looks like this is kind of like googling "global warming". You'll get a ton of righty web sites, and a ton of lefty web sites...and can you guess which side they take?

I prefer to take the word of the Canadian and British providers and patients that I've spoken to directly. I haven't heard one Candian who doesn't like their healthcare system. I've only heard on Brit that complained about theirs.

What I have heard plenty of at work...because I'm involved in appeals and grievances as they relate to fraud....is Brits and Candians that say our system sucks in every way compared to thiers.
 

auditor0007

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
In the socialized medicine countries of Europe...providers and suppliers don't get rich from medicine. Medical care in the US is becoming out of reach for the middle class due to costs. I work in the medical insurance industry and know what I'm talking about. Medical plans keep getting more expensive, and the deductibles and copays keep rising. Already...individual/family plans are bankrupting families who shell out $3000 a month for useless insurance. Pretty soon, the big employer plans will do the same thing. The insurance companies keep squeezing providers with lower contract rates. The plan members get less, and the doctors get less. By 2030, at this rate...the government will have to allow people to just die for lack of care, or provide it themselves. Medical care through medical insurance in America is even more unsustainable than our debt.

I don't want it to go socialized...but I can't see how it won't. And it won't be any different if Republicans get elected.
Unless we find a way to stabilize and /or reduce costs charged by providers, there will be no other choice than moving to a one-payer system. At some point, people and businesses will just not be able to pay for health coverage. When that happens, providers will either have to reduce their prices or close their doors. Many will close their doors, and at that point we will likely see a complete change in the way medical care is delivered.
 

toxicmedia

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
In the socialized medicine countries of Europe...providers and suppliers don't get rich from medicine. Medical care in the US is becoming out of reach for the middle class due to costs. I work in the medical insurance industry and know what I'm talking about. Medical plans keep getting more expensive, and the deductibles and copays keep rising. Already...individual/family plans are bankrupting families who shell out $3000 a month for useless insurance. Pretty soon, the big employer plans will do the same thing. The insurance companies keep squeezing providers with lower contract rates. The plan members get less, and the doctors get less. By 2030, at this rate...the government will have to allow people to just die for lack of care, or provide it themselves. Medical care through medical insurance in America is even more unsustainable than our debt.

I don't want it to go socialized...but I can't see how it won't. And it won't be any different if Republicans get elected.
Unless we find a way to stabilize and /or reduce costs charged by providers, there will be no other choice than moving to a one-payer system. At some point, people and businesses will just not be able to pay for health coverage. When that happens, providers will either have to reduce their prices or close their doors. Many will close their doors, and at that point we will likely see a complete change in the way medical care is delivered.
It's the labs, hospital stays, partly pharma, and devices that cost the most. Not the average family practitioner, they're making less every year.
 

old navy

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Now Toxic we all know that the medical industry will regulate itself to the benefit of the USA?
The problem is that providers, insurers, and suppliers can't all make ever increasing amounts of money when the cost to patients keeps going up, and their salaries keep going down, or staying flat.

It's simple math. Care costs too much, and it's getting worse exponentially. Obamacare doesn't do enough, and Republicans don't want to do anything at all, and I don't even know what could be done.
The Repubs actually had a few ideas but were shut out of the room when the PPACA was crafted. Remember when Pelosi said we will see what's in the bill once we pass it. There are many more things that can be done to bring down the cost of health care. Tort reform would take some of the pressure off physicians who practice defensive medicine. The un-necessary tests and exams they order costs lots of money. Another fix would be outlawing BigPharma advertising. I used to think that research was the largest cost in medications but while researching the subject for a term paper, found that advertising was the culprit.

The OP has some good points. The literature shows that preventative programs do not bring down the cost of health care. No matter how much we try to get people to stop smoking, to eat right, to exercise, to use protection during sex, to get pre-natal care, they do not comply and therefore add to the cost of health care. The cost that a lot of us have to help with in the present system. Another idea is more use of individual spending accounts. The patient can spend their health care dolalrs as they see fit and pay the cash price at the doc's office, lab, or x-ray practice. The cash price is much lower than what they charge the insurance companies.

Just a few quick ideas. I have more.
 
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Patrick2

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I met with Canadian and British providers at a convention/conference back in 2005. That whole "waiting 6 months or longer to see a specialist in the UK and Canada" isn't true. The average wait for an MRI is two weeks in Canada, and about 3 in England. I'm interested in seeing anything you have read about that long waiting period that wasn't published by anti healthcare reform folks. I'm not doubting you, just skeptical because I'm only hearin that complaint from rightwing Americans.
I've seen tons of stuff contradicting your claims, but I'll let you tutor yourself. It's easy:

Google nhs and horror story, national institute for clinical excellence and protest, nhs hospital conditions, nhs and sent home to die, etc etc etc. All you can stomach is just a few clicks away - read up.
Check this out. 'Evil and Orwellian'

When I googled NHS horror story...up came a ton of right wing web sites in the US. It looks like this is kind of like googling "global warming". You'll get a ton of righty web sites, and a ton of lefty web sites...and can you guess which side they take?
I get half a million hits for that - garsh, that's a lot of "rightwing web sites", and here I thought we were way behind the lefties in using the net for politics. :D And the other phrases? To pretend it's just opinion pieces is dishonest.

I prefer to take the word of the Canadian and British providers and patients that I've spoken to directly. I haven't heard one Candian who doesn't like their healthcare system. I've only heard on Brit that complained about theirs.
OF COURSE the providers in the system are going to defend it - what do you expect - that they'll say "we have failed and should be fired"???

And why do canadians run for the US border if they really need something done right now? Why are there tens of thousands of british medical tourists who go every year to places like india to get their surgeries, preferring that to dropping dead? Why did the New Foundland premier come to the U.S. for heart surgery?

REALLY, NO KIDDING - READ UP.
 

iamwhatiseem

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Are you an American? If so you pay your part.
Or you could leave of course.
Umm...no.

If you are a wage-earning American there is a 49% chance you are paying your part. That is how many employed Americans pay income taxes.
 
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Patrick2

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In the socialized medicine countries of Europe...providers and suppliers don't get rich from medicine. Medical care in the US is becoming out of reach for the middle class due to costs. I work in the medical insurance industry and know what I'm talking about. Medical plans keep getting more expensive, and the deductibles and copays keep rising. Already...individual/family plans are bankrupting families who shell out $3000 a month for useless insurance. Pretty soon, the big employer plans will do the same thing. The insurance companies keep squeezing providers with lower contract rates. The plan members get less, and the doctors get less. By 2030, at this rate...the government will have to allow people to just die for lack of care, or provide it themselves. Medical care through medical insurance in America is even more unsustainable than our debt.

I don't want it to go socialized...but I can't see how it won't. And it won't be any different if Republicans get elected.
Unless we find a way to stabilize and /or reduce costs charged by providers, there will be no other choice than moving to a one-payer system. At some point, people and businesses will just not be able to pay for health coverage. When that happens, providers will either have to reduce their prices or close their doors. Many will close their doors, and at that point we will likely see a complete change in the way medical care is delivered.
It's the labs, hospital stays, partly pharma, and devices that cost the most. Not the average family practitioner, they're making less every year.
For reasons such as paying gigantic liability insurance premiums because of tort lawyer predators, and under-reimbursement by the government for medicare patients.
 

toxicmedia

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The Repubs actually had a few ideas but were shut out of the room when the PPACA was crafted. Remember when Pelosi said we will see what's in the bill once we pass it. There are many more things that can be done to bring down the cost of health care. Tort reform would take some of the pressure off physicians who practice defensive medicine. The un-necessary tests and exams they order costs lots of money. Another fix would be outlawing BigPharma advertising. I used to think that research was the largest cost in medications but while researching the subject for a term paper, found that advertising was the culprit.
The Republican ideas I remember were tort reform, which would help, and interstate comepetition for insurers, which would do absolutely nothing, and is way too complex. Uneccessary tests would no longer be neccessary after effective tort reform. But that alone will not stave off the impending collapse of access to care. Banning pharma ads is a great start, but they'd find some way to market that still costs alot.

[The OP has some good points. The literature shows that preventative programs do not bring down the cost of health care. No matter how much we try to get people to stop smoking, to eat right, to exercise, to use protection during sex, to get pre-natal care, they do not comply and therefore add to the cost of health care. The cost that a lot of us have to help with in the present system. Another idea is more use of individual spending accounts. The patient can spend their health care dolalrs as they see fit and pay the cash price at the doc's office, lab, or x-ray practice. The cash price is much lower than what they charge the insurance companies.

Just a few quick ideas. I have more.
Smoking cessation programs and lifestyle management is a tiny fraction of preventive healthcare. The majority is colonoscopies for 50 and older, mammograms, pap smears, blood work for physicals, physical exams, etc....but there is no way to quantify the benefit from keeping an illness from happening. This is not some plot by healthcare reform authors to control people's lives.

Individual spending accounts are only a good way to take the sting out of copays and deductibles. If you have enough money to save up for a gal bladder operation, you have enough to pay for it outright.
 

toxicmedia

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Unless we find a way to stabilize and /or reduce costs charged by providers, there will be no other choice than moving to a one-payer system. At some point, people and businesses will just not be able to pay for health coverage. When that happens, providers will either have to reduce their prices or close their doors. Many will close their doors, and at that point we will likely see a complete change in the way medical care is delivered.
It's the labs, hospital stays, partly pharma, and devices that cost the most. Not the average family practitioner, they're making less every year.
For reasons such as paying gigantic liability insurance premiums because of tort lawyer predators, and under-reimbursement by the government for medicare patients.
Malprictice insurance and lawsuits is another relatively small factor, because pills get taken every day, all year some times...but law suits are getting harder to win every year.

My point is...everything I've heard from Republicans won't stop the impending access to care crisis, and what the Democrats are doing won't stop it either.
 
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Patrick2

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The Republican ideas I remember were tort reform, which would help, and interstate comepetition for insurers, which would do absolutely nothing, and is way too complex.
NONSENSE! Many states, eg California, have just a few big health care insurerers. It should be obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of economics that such semi-monopolies help keep prices up.

The majority is colonoscopies for 50 and older, mammograms, pap smears, blood work for physicals, physical exams, etc....but there is no way to quantify the benefit from keeping an illness from happening. This is not some plot by healthcare reform authors to control people's lives.
Why are there so many of those expensive exams? Because the recommendation on age of starting them, and frequency of taking them, eg mamography exams, are geared to average disease incidence and age of onset for a POPULATION MANY OF WHOM ENGAGE IN UNHEALTHY LIFESTYLES.
 
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Patrick2

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
In the socialized medicine countries of Europe...providers and suppliers don't get rich from medicine. Medical care in the US is becoming out of reach for the middle class due to costs. I work in the medical insurance industry and know what I'm talking about. Medical plans keep getting more expensive, and the deductibles and copays keep rising. Already...individual/family plans are bankrupting families who shell out $3000 a month for useless insurance. Pretty soon, the big employer plans will do the same thing. The insurance companies keep squeezing providers with lower contract rates. The plan members get less, and the doctors get less. By 2030, at this rate...the government will have to allow people to just die for lack of care, or provide it themselves. Medical care through medical insurance in America is even more unsustainable than our debt.

I don't want it to go socialized...but I can't see how it won't. And it won't be any different if Republicans get elected.
Unless we find a way to stabilize and /or reduce costs charged by providers, there will be no other choice than moving to a one-payer system.
We have to reduce costs, but going to a one-payer system, liberalese for state controlled healthcare systems, only substitutes the crude, dumb, brute system of rationing and death panels to control costs, and is completely unnecessary as well as profoundly harmful.
 
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Patrick2

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It's the labs, hospital stays, partly pharma, and devices that cost the most. Not the average family practitioner, they're making less every year.
For reasons such as paying gigantic liability insurance premiums because of tort lawyer predators, and under-reimbursement by the government for medicare patients.
Malprictice insurance and lawsuits is another relatively small factor, because pills get taken every day, all year some times...but law suits are getting harder to win every year.

My point is...everything I've heard from Republicans won't stop the impending access to care crisis, and what the Democrats are doing won't stop it either.
Lack of tort reform is a GIGANTIC cost driver - because of the lawyers EVERY doctor has to pay big liability insurance premiums, some specialists like neurosurgeons and obgyns have to pay HUGE premiums, and the costs are passed along to their customers, ultimately raising customer insurance pemiums. WHOLE STATES, like eg (if memory serves) west virgimia have practically been emptied of obgyns due to the tort lawyer predator problem.
 

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
Please provide us with your most recent medical records stating that you are in perfect health.

Thank you.
 
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Patrick2

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
Please provide us with your most recent medical records stating that you are in perfect health.

Thank you.
Perfect health isn't the issue, irresponsible degradation of one's health IS. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, go to the gym all the time, and am a near-vegan.
 

NYcarbineer

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
Okay, let's say we deny poor children affordable healthcare. What then? The kids just go without? We, as a society, simply make poor children suffer without healthcare until America's poor 'wake up' and stop having kids?

How would that work, exactly?
 

BDBoop

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Think what it does to the nation's health bill (insurance premiums, medicare/medicaid costs) that there are lots of super-fat people who have never seen the inside of a gym.

About 150 years ago, doctors began to notice that it was smokers who were much more likely to get lung cancer.

How many druggies and drunks don't bother to pay for health insurance?

How many don't care what they eat, as long as it tastes good? Someone said in that department, americans are walking garbage cans.

How many gays think it's their constitutional right to screw each other w/o protection, and it's the taxpayer who must bail them out by paying for their meds plus zillions of dollars in research on the disease?

This extends of course beyond health related issues.

How many people have worked in maufacturing, not seen the handwriting on the wall for decades that their job will be exported, and don't train themselves for something new, but just go on the public dole when their job finally disappears? Or they stupidly demand government tariffs or the like?

How many mothers with children have to get welfare because the mother made an obviously stupid choice in getting pregnant and then dumped by some creep?

How many geezers didn't provide for their old-age, thinking medicare/social security is supposed to be their retirement plan?
In the socialized medicine countries of Europe...providers and suppliers don't get rich from medicine. Medical care in the US is becoming out of reach for the middle class due to costs. I work in the medical insurance industry and know what I'm talking about. Medical plans keep getting more expensive, and the deductibles and copays keep rising. Already...individual/family plans are bankrupting families who shell out $3000 a month for useless insurance. Pretty soon, the big employer plans will do the same thing. The insurance companies keep squeezing providers with lower contract rates. The plan members get less, and the doctors get less. By 2030, at this rate...the government will have to allow people to just die for lack of care, or provide it themselves. Medical care through medical insurance in America is even more unsustainable than our debt.

I don't want it to go socialized...but I can't see how it won't. And it won't be any different if Republicans get elected.
And now, the class should Google "Sick for Profit" to find out where all that money is going.

NOW! Blog » Sick for Profit: Stephen Hemsley&#8217;s Millions Come From Your Health

 
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