Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[snjmom]

The marketing slogan is "Abortion: safe, legal and rare". The problem is that they don't want it rare. By the way, rare is a subjective term. For me, rare would be 50 per year. For them, 5 million a year could be "rare".

The actual rate is 1.2 million a year and I'm guessing they aren't saying it's "rare" yet. That is less than 3% of the population.

The very worst parent to have is one that doesn't want you. Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

 

[CandySlice]

I was unaware that JB ever said a person could not have sex.

I didn't. That's why they can't cite.

Shame on you JB for forbidding sex!

Are you being sarcastic? All I ever said was that if you're old enough to ****, you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions and your children.

If you're not ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy and to be responsible, them keep your pants on.

That right there alone would end 93% of abortions (all those done for convenience, leaving 6%out of medical concern and 1% in cases of rape). If they really wanted less abortions, Immie, they'd tell their kids to keep their pants on until they're ready to take all reasonable measures to avoid an unwanted pregnancy and take responsibility for any children they do make, either by providing a good home or by placing the child with someone who will.

Yet they steadfastly rail against personal responsibility. They take up their pro-abortion banner because they are anti-responsibility. They do not believe anyone should ever be responsible for their decisions. They do not want to grow up. Killing their children appeals to them because it means they never have to grow up and be responsible.

No, Immie, you are wrong. Most of them do not want less abortions. If they did, they wouldn't advocate irresponsibility and having unprotected sex outside of a committed relationship. They would teach their daughters how to pick a good man, how to use a condom, and where to acquire birth control. Instead, they teach them how to find an abortionist. They would locate sources of free condoms. These women would learn how to use a condom instead of how to find someone to kill their children.

No, Immie, they don't want less abortions and it's not an emergency 93% of the time. That's why they do it again and again and again instead of showing the slightest bit of personal responsibility. Because killing your child is easier than growing up and no longer acting like a child yourself.

In regards to the "No, Immie, you are wrong" and "No, Immie, they don't want less abortions". You seem to be under the assumption that all who promote abortion rights have engaged in sexual promiscuity, have encouraged (or at least not discouraged) their daughters from doing so or have undergone abortions themselves or even would encourage their daughters to do so. I believe that many of them would not have one themselves, but do not want the government dictating to them whether or not they can have one. I can understand that... I don't like the government dictating to me what speed I can drive or (even though I don't smoke it) whether or not I can smoke pot.

I am not gay and I believe that marriage is the realm of the church. That does not mean that I believe that the government should a) interfere with a homosexual couple's right to be married in a church that will marry them and b) show preference to straight couples who are married in or out of the church.

I, honestly, do not believe that most "pro-choice" people want a high number of abortions. I think most people find abortion abhorrent... or at least, dagnamit I hope they do.

Immie

I, honestly, do not believe that most "pro-choice" people want a high number of abortions. I think most people find abortion abhorrent... or at least, dagnamit I hope they do.


Of course not, Immy. I wasn't saying they did. It's the RIGHT to do so that I defend, not the actual act of terminating a fetus. There is birth control on every corner and people also have the right to act responsible.

 

[Immanuel]

It's not about dead babies. Nobody wants to see dead babies. What the right to life groups all have in common is they are usually headed up by men. Men that want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen. It's not about abortion as much as it is about taking away the rights we women have fought so hard to achieve. Up until 1920 a woman was little more than chattle and could be dismissed and thrown out with the garbage or bartered like cattle. We've come a long way and not the Government nor anybody else needs to concern themselves with my bush! I'm managing fine, thank you.
What a woman does with her body is between her, her doctor and her God. It is nobody elses business.

Please cite where you get your information in regards to what men want. Because I think you are either dead wrong or not being honest.

Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

You chose to have sex. You accepted the risk of pregnancy.

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make here is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

Please cite where you get your information in regards to what men want. Because I think you are either dead wrong or not being honest.

Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

?

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

All good points Immy but let me ask you this. Have you ever had an abortion? I have. I was 15 years old and my father insisted on it. It wasn't legal back then and it was hell on earth. I had an actual doctor in attendance who could have lost his medical licence for 'helping us out' and it created a rift between my family and I that wasn't resolved for decades. I became a 'womens rights' advocate on that very day and I will never change. There is no way to describe the pain and humiliation and misery I suffered that day and for whatever reason I hope no woman ever has to again. The reasons aren't important.

 

[snjmom]

They don't want less, Immie. If they did, they'd be advocating sexual responsibility and teaching women where the condoms are, not where the abortionist is.

You do realize that this is 97% of what Planned Parenthood does, right? You do realize that men encourage women to be sexually irresponsible, right? Not abortionists. I certainly advocate sexual responsibility. That doesn't mean that mistakes don't happen. Sometimes that means a human being will lose it's life. Happens all the time in all aspects of life.

 

[Immanuel]

The problem is that they don't want it rare.

[
Didn't you just say the opposite?

No, the "they" I am talking about is Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry. I didn't make myself clear on that.

I don't consider the people that we are discussing this with to be part of the abortion industry.

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

Please cite where you get your information in regards to what men want. Because I think you are either dead wrong or not being honest.

Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life".

Well of course there is always the possibilty they just liked blowing things up and killed for the fun of it but I wouldn't try to push that idea past any intelligent thinking people.

 

[snjmom]

You chose to have sex. You accepted the risk of pregnancy.

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make her is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

 

[Immanuel]

The marketing slogan is "Abortion: safe, legal and rare". The problem is that they don't want it rare. By the way, rare is a subjective term. For me, rare would be 50 per year. For them, 5 million a year could be "rare".

The actual rate is 1.2 million a year and I'm guessing they aren't saying it's "rare" yet. That is less than 3% of the population.

The very worst parent to have is one that doesn't want you. Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

Because the alternative is advocating the killing of an innocent human being. I will not advocate that!

Do I think life would be grand for such a child? No, I don't, but at least it is life. Who knows what good will come to that child or from that child? I advocate adoption in such a case, but truthfully, I believe that most women in "crisis pregnancies" who go through with the pregnancy end up being great mothers to the child they considered killing. They're scared when they contemplate taking that life, but once the decision is made, the child is born and life goes on, they end up being fabulous moms.

No, they aren't saying it is rare yet, but they are not truly advocating anything that will actually reduce it either. It is nothing but a "feel good" slogan. Trying to win the hearts and minds of the public. In the same manner as declaring me to be "anti-woman" or "anti-choice" because I fight against the "choice" of killing an innocent human being. Or in the same manner as "my" side attempting to make your side seem like monsters by declaring you "pro-abortion".

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make her is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

It's always so easy to pass moral judgement on people when you aren't personally involved.

 

[CandySlice]

if a women doesn't want the pregnancy ?

Then take all reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy. I don't want to get hit by a bus, so I take all reasonable measures to avoid it.

screw you .

I'll pass. If you give it up that easily, I don't want it.

who are you to tell anyone if or if not they can have sex ?

Where has anyone here done any such thing? Oh yeah, only in your head.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

but where do you get off judging others?

You're right. Let's not judge anyone or tell people what they can or can't do. Let's release all the murderers and rapists, get rid of the police, revoke all traffic laws, and enjoy our libertarian paradise.

But sometimes the bus hits you anyway. Im sure in your well ordered life such a thing never occured to you.

 

[Immanuel]

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

?

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

All good points Immy but let me ask you this. Have you ever had an abortion? I have. I was 15 years old and my father insisted on it. It wasn't legal back then and it was hell on earth. I had an actual doctor in attendance who could have lost his medical licence for 'helping us out' and it created a rift between my family and I that wasn't resolved for decades. I became a 'womens rights' advocate on that very day and I will never change. There is no way to describe the pain and humiliation and misery I suffered that day and for whatever reason I hope no woman ever has to again. The reasons aren't important.

Have I ever had an abortion? I have to confess. I am one of those evil men that you think "want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen", so, no I have never had an abortion. Nor has my wife, nor either one of my two daughters. I have I will confess though much to my shame, counseled a friend of my wife who called me for advice. I told her that she should do what she felt was in her best interest. This was before I became "pro-life". She did and she has not spoken to us since.

If you don't mind, I would prefer not to comment on the rest of this post. Nothing I can say will sound right and I don't particularly care to have you "not speak to me since". Make sense?

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

The marketing slogan is "Abortion: safe, legal and rare". The problem is that they don't want it rare. By the way, rare is a subjective term. For me, rare would be 50 per year. For them, 5 million a year could be "rare".

The actual rate is 1.2 million a year and I'm guessing they aren't saying it's "rare" yet. That is less than 3% of the population.

The very worst parent to have is one that doesn't want you. Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

Because the alternative is advocating the killing of an innocent human being. I will not advocate that!

Do I think life would be grand for such a child? No, I don't, but at least it is life. Who knows what good will come to that child or from that child? I advocate adoption in such a case, but truthfully, I believe that most women in "crisis pregnancies" who go through with the pregnancy end up being great mothers to the child they considered killing. They're scared when they contemplate taking that life, but once the decision is made, the child is born and life goes on, they end up being fabulous moms.

No, they aren't saying it is rare yet, but they are not truly advocating anything that will actually reduce it either. It is nothing but a "feel good" slogan. Trying to win the hearts and minds of the public. In the same manner as declaring me to be "anti-woman" or "anti-choice" because I fight against the "choice" of killing an innocent human being. Or in the same manner as "my" side attempting to make your side seem like monsters by declaring you "pro-abortion".

Immie

My God, you must be the most the most naive person on earth. The shelters and orphanages in this country are packed full of abused and abandoned children whose parents had no other choice but to have them.
Also noticed you had nothing further to say regarding my question.

 

[snjmom]

No, they aren't saying it is rare yet, but they are not truly advocating anything that will actually reduce it either. It is nothing but a "feel good" slogan. Trying to win the hearts and minds of the public. In the same manner as declaring me to be "anti-woman" or "anti-choice" because I fight against the "choice" of killing an innocent human being. Or in the same manner as "my" side attempting to make your side seem like monsters by declaring you "pro-abortion".

Immie

Again, from my local Planned Parenting site.

Our Services
Planned Parenthood provides direct medical care and family planing services to more than 50,000 women, men and teens each year.


Our health services include:

emergency contraception
comprehensive birth control and contraceptive services
testing and treatment for STDs
hepatitis vaccinations
HIV testing and counseling
cancer screenings (breast and cervical, testicular and prostate)
HPV vaccinations
colposcopy and cryotherapy
vasectomies
annual GYN exams
Announcing Fall 2010 Insemination Services.

We also provide options counseling and abortion care through Reproductive Health Services.

None of those services reduce unwanted pregnancy other than abortion?

Seriously?

Did you even realize than in the event you are pregnant and choose to have the child that PP will hook you up with every social service known to man?

Want to end abortion? Force every male to make a sperm deposit at 15 and then mandatory vasectomy.

That would really reduce the number of abortions.

 

[Immanuel]

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life".

Well of course there is always the possibilty they just liked blowing things up and killed for the fun of it but I wouldn't try to push that idea past any intelligent thinking people.

No, my point is that you can not be "pro-life" and then go out an kill or attempt to kill people you don't agree with. Stopping them through force of law is one thing. Stopping their lives is in a whole other galaxy.

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

?

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

All good points Immy but let me ask you this. Have you ever had an abortion? I have. I was 15 years old and my father insisted on it. It wasn't legal back then and it was hell on earth. I had an actual doctor in attendance who could have lost his medical licence for 'helping us out' and it created a rift between my family and I that wasn't resolved for decades. I became a 'womens rights' advocate on that very day and I will never change. There is no way to describe the pain and humiliation and misery I suffered that day and for whatever reason I hope no woman ever has to again. The reasons aren't important.

Have I ever had an abortion? I have to confess. I am one of those evil men that you think "want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen", so, no I have never had an abortion. Nor has my wife, nor either one of my two daughters. I have I will confess though much to my shame, counseled a friend of my wife who called me for advice. I told her that she should do what she felt was in her best interest. This was before I became "pro-life". She did and she has not spoken to us since.

If you don't mind, I would prefer not to comment on the rest of this post. Nothing I can say will sound right and I don't particularly care to have you "not speak to me since". Make sense?

Immie

Fair enough. So I will leave you with this. Until you grow a vagina of your own keep your nose out of mine.

 

[Immanuel]

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make her is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

No, if you were not willing to go through that, you should not have had intercourse. There are other ways to sexually gratify your partner without actually having intercourse. You made your choice the moment you allowed your partner entry into your body.

Man! Did that sound graphic or what? Sorry.

Immie

 

[CandySlice]

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)



Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life".

Well of course there is always the possibilty they just liked blowing things up and killed for the fun of it but I wouldn't try to push that idea past any intelligent thinking people.

No, my point is that you can not be "pro-life" and then go out an kill or attempt to kill people you don't agree with. Stopping them through force of law is one thing. Stopping their lives is in a whole other galaxy.

Immie

Well you wouldn't think so, would you?? But you know what happens when people decide they know whats best for everybody else.

 

[Immanuel]

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make her is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

It's always so easy to pass moral judgement on people when you aren't personally involved.

Have I passed judgment on you or mom?

I disagree with what you are supporting, but I do not believe I have passed judgment on either one of you any more than you have passed judgment upon me.

Immie