Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

Also, remember...for many years, welfare programs (federal and state) DID fund abortions...and that is where you see the huge leaps in abortion numbers (and subsequently child abuse numbers, murders, etc). Now that we've almost stopped that.....abortion numbers have leveled out.

 

[HUGGY]

Yes. Because they take more chances.

The stats are what they are. Illegitimate births jumped and bounded upwards the second abortion became legal.

As a result of Roe v Wade, or as a result of the same sociological factors that lead to Roe v. Wade?

One would think that if someone toolk more risks due to RvW, as opposed to as a result of the same social changes that led to it,they'd be inclined to make use of an abortionist if a pregnancy resulted.

It seems more plausible to my mind that the two matters are actually the result of the same underlying social factors (see: libertinism), which would explain both the rates of sex and pregnancy outside marriage as well as an increase in the abortion rate.

We agree on the correlation, but I'm not seeing causation. I'm seeing a common cause.

More people did take risks...and more people did use abortionists. But more people also had babies, because the very same people who peddle legal abortion also peddle sex to a whole population of people who should probably not be having sex. They removed the stigma of illegitimate birth, removed the stigma of abortion, promote the shit out of both..and look what happens.

What planet are you REALLY from? I consider myself fairly well informed and I have never seen a sexually suggestive advertisement or statement from Planned Parenthood.

Sex has been a marketing tool for hundreds of years. The vast majority of the companies that use sex in that way are not "for abortion". That statement is ridiculous. Corporate America promotes sex. The media owned by corporate America sells and promotes sex.

When I was a kid there was barely a mention of sexuality on the TV or in advertisements in magazines and definitely not in newspapers. Now the only people not exposed to rampant sexual exploitation are blind deaf mutes. Non of it comes from the government. Non of it comes from health providers.

Miss Baba..do you ever really think before you type this tripe?

 

[JBeukema]

Also, remember...for many years, welfare programs (federal and state) DID fund abortions..

Federal dollars still do fund abortions.

 

[Immanuel]

As a result of Roe v Wade, or as a result of the same sociological factors that lead to Roe v. Wade?

One would think that if someone toolk more risks due to RvW, as opposed to as a result of the same social changes that led to it,they'd be inclined to make use of an abortionist if a pregnancy resulted.

It seems more plausible to my mind that the two matters are actually the result of the same underlying social factors (see: libertinism), which would explain both the rates of sex and pregnancy outside marriage as well as an increase in the abortion rate.

We agree on the correlation, but I'm not seeing causation. I'm seeing a common cause.

More people did take risks...and more people did use abortionists. But more people also had babies, because the very same people who peddle legal abortion also peddle sex to a whole population of people who should probably not be having sex. They removed the stigma of illegitimate birth, removed the stigma of abortion, promote the shit out of both..and look what happens.

What planet are you REALLY from? I consider myself fairly well informed and I have never seen a sexually suggestive advertisement or statement from Planned Parenthood.

Sex has been a marketing tool for hundreds of years. The vast majority of the companies that use sex in that way are not "for abortion". That statement is ridiculous. Corporate America promotes sex. The media owned by corporate America sells and promotes sex.

When I was a kid there was barely a mention of sexuality on the TV or in advertisements in magazines and definitely not in newspapers. Now the only people not exposed to rampant sexual exploitation are blind deaf mutes. Non of it comes from the government. Non of it comes from health providers.

Miss Baba..do you ever really think before you type this tripe?

I've got to disagree with you regarding PP. PP has been about free, unrestricted sex from the beginning. They are the instigators of the "Sexual Revolution", not a product of it. They have not gone out and advertised, "Just Do It", but they may as well have done so.

This article doesn't mention Planned Parenthood, but scanning it has PP and Margaret Sanger written all over it.

Sexual revolution: Definition from Answers.com

The sexual revolution (also known broadly as a time of "sexual liberation") was a social outlook that challenges traditional codes of behaviour related to sexuality and interpersonal relationships. The phenomenon took place throughout the Western world from the 1960s into the 1970s.[1] Many of the changes in outlook developed into new codes of sexual behaviour, many of which have become mainstream.[2]

Sexual liberation included increased acceptance of sex outside of traditional heterosexual, monogamous relationships (primarily marriage).[3] Contraception and the pill, public nudity, the normalization of homosexuality and alternative forms of sexuality, and the legalization of abortion all followed.[4][5]

Just read some of the buzz words in their "about us".

Who We Are

We are a trusted health care provider, an informed educator, a passionate advocate, and a global partner helping similar organizations around the world. Planned Parenthood delivers vital reproductive health care, sex education, and information to millions of women, men, and young people worldwide.

For more than 90 years, Planned Parenthood has promoted a commonsense approach to women’s health and well-being, based on respect for each individual’s right to make informed, independent decisions about health, sex, and family planning.

Informing and Educating the Community

Planned Parenthood is a respected leader in educating Americans about reproductive and sexual health. We deliver comprehensive and medically accurate information that empowers women, men, teens, and families to make informed choices and lead healthy lives. Planned Parenthood is proud of its vital role in providing young people with honest sexuality and relationship information in classrooms and online to help reduce our nation’s alarmingly high rates of teen pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections. Nearly 1.2 million youths and adults participate in Planned Parenthood educational programs every year.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

Immie, you've drunk the abortion Kool Aid and liked it, I see. You're so convinced that women are too stupid to function without having their uteruses scraped regularly that you're willing to throw the babies out with the dishwater, literally.

The thing is, it's not just the unborn babies that are hurt. It's the living breathing babies that are being abused, and whose abusers are being protected by PP, who are also being hurt. They are hurt by the fact that when we allow the slaughter of innocents, we in turn devalue ALL innocents. If an unborn baby is worth nothing, a 12 year old isn't worth much more. If we protect the people who get these young people pregnant, we are promoting child abuse.

You are so off-base that it is not even funny.

I would be right there beside you, if your hypothesis had even an inkling of reality to it. Instead you live in a fantasy world that says, "people are moral individuals and will never break the law. If the law says abortions are illegal then women won't have abortions".

Well, Allie, my friend, women were getting abortions before abortion was legal in the same percentages before it was legal as they are now. The only difference is today they can claim it as a Constitutional Right whereas before they had to hide the fact that they underwent an abortion. You seem to believe that on January 23, 1973 women suddenly began having abortions because it was legal now. The sad fact is that they were having abortions before 1/23/73 but they were doing it illegally and not reporting it. Doctors didn't start doing abortion on 1/23/73. They were doing it before, but they were not reporting it and they were charging (literally) an arm and a leg to do it.

Beyond that... it is also a fact that overturning Roe today would not suddenly make abortion illegal. It would simply revert it to the states and most likely the majority of states would still allow legal abortions in almost every case. So, your little fantasy accomplishes zilch.

Question: is reducing the number of abortions as important to you as winning the political point?

Immie

Of course. And I know that eliminating the abortion industry, with all of it's promotion, political clout, and money will reduce abortions. The facts support that, and I'm a fact person.

"political clout"
The abortion doctors have no political clout whatsoever. They wear a damn bulls eye on their back.
You are a loose cannon Allie. Try putting your brain in gear before mouth in motion.
You need to listen Allie. You have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason. Use them.
Abortion is LEGAL. DUH.

 

[snjmom]

I've got to disagree with you regarding PP. PP has been about free, unrestricted sex from the beginning. They are the instigators of the "Sexual Revolution", not a product of it. They have not gone out and advertised, "Just Do It", but they may as well have done so.

Bullshit.

From our local PP website.

Yet, according to teen surveys, those who had close parent relationships were more likely to abstain from sex, wait until they were older to begin sexual activity, have fewer partners and use contraception more consistently.

Parents need to start talking.

Family communication about relationships, sex, and sexuality should be an ongoing process, not a one-time talk. So look for those "teachable moments" – those times when sexual issues come to the surface. For instance, romantic or sexual story lines in TV shows, advertisements, lyrics from popular songs, movies or news shows — Janet Jackson’s Super Bowl performance or Paris Hilton’s commercial washing a car are a couple of examples. Teachable moments are ideal opportunities to hear your child's questions and concerns, and to share your feelings and values about sexuality and sexual issues. Ask what your child thinks about the behaviors and relationships of the people involved and if your family’s values are helpful in understanding them. They may seem like they are not listening, or that they do not want to hear about sexuality from their patients, but they are listening. If you remain silent on sexuality, it sends a message as well. Speak up and you will both be glad you did!

Does that really sound like a message of "free love" and promiscuity to you?

Really?

 

[HUGGY]

Babba....You are full of shit and I hate you ....you ass face!!!

The "sexual revolution" started with the invention of the birth control pill. That is fact. Any other nonsense about how it started is just you making things up.

 

[AllieBaba]

It began then but it didn't take off until the 70s...
I wonder why...hmmmmm....
Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)

Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HUGGY]

It began then but it didn't take off until the 70s...
I wonder why...hmmmmm....
Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)

Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have your cart in front of your donkey. Roe/Wade and PP is a result of ..not the cause of the sexual revolution.

The steep increase in sexual freedom was far more influenced by sales techniques in the seventies than anything.

Nowadays Walter Cronkite couldn't even get a job in a small town television news team. We even have to have our teleprompter reading bubble head news casters look sexy and make stupid sexual innuendos constantly.

Blaming this sex crazed media blitz on Roe/Wade or PP is too stupid for even your words.

 

[Immanuel]

I've got to disagree with you regarding PP. PP has been about free, unrestricted sex from the beginning. They are the instigators of the "Sexual Revolution", not a product of it. They have not gone out and advertised, "Just Do It", but they may as well have done so.

Bullshit.

From our local PP website.

Yet, according to teen surveys, those who had close parent relationships were more likely to abstain from sex, wait until they were older to begin sexual activity, have fewer partners and use contraception more consistently.

Parents need to start talking.

Family communication about relationships, sex, and sexuality should be an ongoing process, not a one-time talk. So look for those "teachable moments" – those times when sexual issues come to the surface. For instance, romantic or sexual story lines in TV shows, advertisements, lyrics from popular songs, movies or news shows — Janet Jackson’s Super Bowl performance or Paris Hilton’s commercial washing a car are a couple of examples. Teachable moments are ideal opportunities to hear your child's questions and concerns, and to share your feelings and values about sexuality and sexual issues. Ask what your child thinks about the behaviors and relationships of the people involved and if your family’s values are helpful in understanding them. They may seem like they are not listening, or that they do not want to hear about sexuality from their patients, but they are listening. If you remain silent on sexuality, it sends a message as well. Speak up and you will both be glad you did!

Does that really sound like a message of "free love" and promiscuity to you?

Really?

Can you provide a link to your site please? There are simply too many PP sites for me to search for that one.

Do you deny PP's association with Margaret Sanger? Do you deny that Margaret Sanger was a proponent of "free sex"? I mean come on, they made her out to be a goddess!

Margaret Sanger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Margaret Sanger

The Truth about Margaret Sanger | Planned Parenthood Affiliates New Jersey

Sanger and Eugenics

Eugenics is the science of improving hereditary qualities by socially controlling human reproduction. Unable to foment popular opposition to Margaret Sanger's accomplishments and the organization she founded, Sanger's critics attempt to discredit them by intentionally confusing her views on "fitness" with eugenics, racism, and anti-Semitism. Margaret Sanger was not a racist, an anti-Semite, or a eugenicist. Eugenicists, like the Nazis, were opposed to the use of abortion and contraception by healthy and “fit” women (Grossmann, 1995). In fact, Sanger’s books were among the very first burned by the Nazis in their campaign against family planning (“Sanger on Exhibit,” 1999/2000). Sanger actually helped several Jewish women and men and others escape the Nazi regime in Germany (“Margaret Sanger and the ‘Refugee Department’,” 1993). Sanger's disagreement with the eugenicists of her day is clear from her remarks in The Birth Control Review of February 1919:

Eugenists imply or insist that a woman's first duty is to the state; we contend that her duty to herself is her first duty to the state. We maintain that a woman possessing an adequate knowledge of her reproductive functions is the best judge of the time and conditions under which her child should be brought into the world. We further maintain that it is her right, regardless of all other considerations, to determine whether she shall bear children or not, and how many children she shall bear if she chooses to become a mother (1919a).

By the way, PP doesn't deny the link between themselves and Sanger.

Immie

 

[beowolfe]

Most of the anti Planned Parenthood posters here don't have a clue beyond the lies spread by the GOP of what Planned Parenthood does or how they do it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually, I get most of my information from the Guttmacher Institute.

Do you know where the name Guttmacher comes from?

Guttmacher, who provides most of the birth control/abortion stats worldwide, and who gives the CDC most of their information on the subject, is quite close to PP. But although PP will lie and hide information, the Guttmacher can't really get away with it...they report what they get..and they also have to report that it's not complete because PP won't provide complete information.

 

[Immanuel]

Actually, I get most of my information from the Guttmacher Institute.

Do you know where the name Guttmacher comes from?

Guttmacher, who provides most of the birth control/abortion stats worldwide, and who gives the CDC most of their information on the subject, is quite close to PP. But although PP will lie and hide information, the Guttmacher can't really get away with it...they report what they get..and they also have to report that it's not complete because PP won't provide complete information.

That is the first and usually only place I go when looking for information on the abortion industry. Even if their information is not accurate, it is going to be under stated as opposed to over stated. It also comes from the mouth of the beast itself as opposed to the Religious Right who are more likely to over estimate the number for their political cause. At least if PP is being "conservative" and instead of 1 million abortions annually it is really 1.25 million then proving me wrong, only makes the new information better for my case.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

I've never heard anyone actually brag about the fact that inaccurate numbers support their stance on something...

 

[Immanuel]

I've never heard anyone actually brag about the fact that inaccurate numbers support their stance on something...

I only said, "conservative" numbers. As a corporate controller, one must budget for things. One guesses as to what the actual numbers will be and when estimating revenue it is best to estimate lower than expected and when estimating expenses it is better to be conservative and estimate high.

I take the conservative figure offered by Planned Parenthood on the number of annual abortions and I can be pretty certain that the number is not less than what they brag about. Whether or not the number is exactly what PP claims, the worse thing that can happen is that someone arguing with me about that number can do is show that the actual number is higher than what Planned Parenthood claims. If they are right and the number is really higher, my argument is not hurt. Whereas, if I took a "liberal" stance and claimed that the number was 1.3 million, and someone comes back and shows where it is only 1 million, I don't have to defend my position.

Immie

 

[Gadawg73]

Abortion will never be illegal. We have gone over that and the states and how some would ban it, some would allow it under certain restrictions and some would allow it at will.
Accordingly, for the last 30 years I have spent my efforts working with youth. I have coached over 70 rec teams, helped many young boys that have come from bad homes, raised over 250K to help those boys in rec and high school teams and have served on the board of directors in about every capacity for numerous youth organizations.
I have had numerous young men that I coached 30 years ago find me on Facebook and tell me how much of an influence I was in their lives. From coaching rec ball I have had one kid I coach be the starting QB at an ACC school Clemson for 2 years, one kid now starting at another ACC school in basketball at FSU and another playing professional baseball for the Padres.
I focus on what I can do for the kids that need the help now. I can not do anything about what an irresponsible woman does to her unborn. As soon as others admit that they can also start making a difference.

 

[Gunny]

Because it isn't en vogue to admit one murders unborn human beings for the sake of selfish, personal convenience.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm trying really hard to figure out how you hanging with little kids all day is relevant to this thread.

 

[Gadawg73]

Because it isn't en vogue to admit one murders unborn human beings for the sake of selfish, personal convenience.

I haven't murdered anyone and oppose abortion.
So you know the personal experiences of 100% of all the women that get abortions?

 

[Gunny]

Abortion will never be illegal. We have gone over that and the states and how some would ban it, some would allow it under certain restrictions and some would allow it at will.
Accordingly, for the last 30 years I have spent my efforts working with youth. I have coached over 70 rec teams, helped many young boys that have come from bad homes, raised over 250K to help those boys in rec and high school teams and have served on the board of directors in about every capacity for numerous youth organizations.
I have had numerous young men that I coached 30 years ago find me on Facebook and tell me how much of an influence I was in their lives. From coaching rec ball I have had one kid I coach be the starting QB at an ACC school Clemson for 2 years, one kid now starting at another ACC school in basketball at FSU and another playing professional baseball for the Padres.
I focus on what I can do for the kids that need the help now. I can not do anything about what an irresponsible woman does to her unborn. As soon as others admit that they can also start making a difference.

Ummm ... what allie said .....