Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[DiamondDave]

And? What's your point?

Just as a human shares part of it's DNA with a chimp.... does not mean it is the same.. the child has it's own UNIQUE DNA signature.. that is neither the mother's nor the fathers....

The DNA isn't what makes an individual

I believe it was Cecil who brought up identical twins

your premise is fallacious

Already mentioned the phenotypes as well

 

[JBeukema]

Phenotype is primarily a manifestation of genotype.

Your premise is fallacious.

 

[manifold]

So you believe abortion is OK up to a point and you are an atheist. Did I get that right?

That is correct

Can you specify the point where you draw the line please?

 

[Ravi]

We don't get to kill off people we don't want around us.

Is it any surprise PP was founded by a eugenicist?

I thought you wanted to make serious arguments.

Hey, at least he's stopped going around claiming that the American left is forcing people to abort.

 

[DiamondDave]

Also a fine example, though I felt mine was more relevant to the pregnancy and abortion aspect of the discussion.

Yet they are individuals with different phenotypes... neither of which are the same as either of the parents

Again, I ask about the cloning technologies on the horizon

And that DOES add a wrinkle.. in more areas than just abortion...

And advances in neonatal medicine have also thrown wrinkles ni the acceptable times to abort arguments... as stated earlier in the thread... my youngest was very premature... at a point where 10 years earlier she would have been considered almost at a point of being impossible to survive...

Would not technology advances of developing a child outside the womb add even more wrinkles??

The key is... this is different than a woman or any individual removing their own tissue or body modification or whatever other argument along those lines... this is a developing human life/organism/child or whatever other term you wish to use....

 

[JBeukema]

Is it any surprise PP was founded by a eugenicist?

I thought you wanted to make serious arguments.

Hey, at least he's stopped going around claiming that the American left is forcing people to abort.

Do cite where I said any such thing, liar

 

[NYcarbineer]

if this were just a part of the woman's body (her matching DNA signature)

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

Should abortion be a capital crime - murder? With the death penalty in play for women who get abortions?

 

[JBeukema]

And advances in neonatal medicine have also thrown wrinkles ni the acceptable times to abort arguments...

Only if you accept the 'viability' argument, which I do not

The key is... this is different than a woman or any individual removing their own tissue or body modification or whatever other argument along those lines... this is a developing human life/organism/child or whatever other term you wish to use....

As I've said this entire time

 

[DiamondDave]

Phenotype is primarily a manifestation of genotype.

Your premise is fallacious.

No.. it is not... my premise is that the makeup of the unborn child makes it a unique individual human life that is not merely part of the mother...

 

[AllieBaba]

if this were just a part of the woman's body (her matching DNA signature)

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

Should abortion be a capital crime - murder? With the death penalty in play for women who get abortions?

Not likely to happen in a society that so thoroughly undervalues children. People don't get the death penalty for killing CHILDREN now, it's unlikely they will ever get the death penalty for killing unborn children.

 

[JBeukema]

if this were just a part of the woman's body (her matching DNA signature)

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

Should abortion be a capital crime - murder? With the death penalty in play for women who get abortions?

Well, it is a premeditated act. I don't see how that's best for society as a whole, however- especially if there's no evidence she's a danger to anyone else. If I were on a jury, I'd be more likely to convict for manslaughter than for murder for that reason.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The one thing I'm certain of, is everyone on here pretending they're on a moral highground because of a political opinion, is that they have each adopted multiple children. So many women made the moral choice of not have an abortion and going through with the birth, and since pro-lifers think this is such a good thing and want this done in all cases they've made a point to go around adopting up all the children who would've otherwise been aborted.

I mean it's all about the eventual life the pregnancy brings, so those so overly concerned with it do their best to make sure that life is made as good as possible.

Has nothing to do with religion and forcing those views on others, it's solely about the life of the eventual child...................................................

Learn the meaning of the word "pretending", doofus. Most of the people here - including you - actually believes they HAVE the moral high ground. If you didn't, you wouldn't have the sheer, unbelieve arrogance to try to dictate what people must and must not do to "earn" the right to hold an opinion on the morality of abortion, as though that right is yours to dole out.

Tell me something. You keep trying to draw parallels between abortion and war, or abortion and capital punishment, right? So how many al Qaeda members have YOU taken into your home? How many convicted murderers? That's your criteria for the "right" to object, isn't it? So what have YOU done to "earn" the right to believe THOSE things are morally wrong?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Meanwhile, I would be mightily gratified if dumbasses like you would STOP stating your spin as though it's scientific fact that everyone agrees with, and by this, I am referring to the reeking bilge of "eventual life". That is YOUR opinion, YOUR viewpoint, and nothing more, so please stop trying to impose it on everyone else as a parameter of debate. It just makes it apparent that you have no idea what the debate is actually about.

 

[JBeukema]

Phenotype is primarily a manifestation of genotype.

Your premise is fallacious.

No.. it is not... my premise is that the makeup of the unborn child makes it a unique individual human life that is not merely part of the mother...

Basing it on genetics is fallacious, as we could (at least in theory) achieve artificial insemination with a cloned embryo that (with a few more advances in cloning technology) be an exact genetic duplicate of the mother.

Biologically, however, the child is a distinct human organism regardless.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It is possible to make cogent arguments in favor of abortion even when one DOES admit that the fetus is a living human organism, but they are cold-blooded

Doesn't that depend on the argument?

I take it I'm on your 'cold-blooded sociopaths' list, then?

Oh well, I don't suppose there's anything to be done about that

No idea. I don't know what arguments you use to justify abortion, or even if you DO justify it. But can YOU think of a warm, fuzzy way to say, "Yeah, I know fetuses are living organisms, but I think women should be able to kill them anyway"? Any way you make THAT argument, logical or not, is going to sound cold and heartless.

 

[manifold]

Is it any surprise PP was founded by a eugenicist?

I thought you wanted to make serious arguments.

Hey, at least he's stopped going around claiming that the American left is forcing people to abort.

He's moved on to arguing that birth is an insignificant event in human life.

 

[Dr.Drock]

if this were just a part of the woman's body (her matching DNA signature)

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

Should abortion be a capital crime - murder? With the death penalty in play for women who get abortions?

I wonder how much of a tax increase and how large of a government program all these supposed "small government conservatives" would want to have put in place to hunt down all the young women.

The task force, the government program, police, lawyers, wiretaps, prisons, lobbies, we're probably talking hundreds of billions of dollars every year.

Besides common sense says all making abortions illegal would do would create a black market for them, just like the drug war has done. So essentially the "pro-life" crowd just wants abortions done by black market thugs rather than doctors or self-done, and they want them performed in back alleys and bathrooms rather than doctor's clinics.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

If I'm not mistaken, identical twins have the same DNA structure, but obviously, they're still separate individuals.

Also a fine example, though I felt mine was more relevant to the pregnancy and abortion aspect of the discussion.

Except that cloning of humans is still theoretical, and identical twins exist right now.

 

[JBeukema]

What if we mastered cloning and she were pregnant with a child that shared her exact same DNA?

You DNA argument falls apart. It would, however, still constitute a distinct biological organism. It would still be a human life, and we can still expect the emergence of an individual mind.

Should abortion be a capital crime - murder? With the death penalty in play for women who get abortions?

I wonder how much of a tax increase and how large of a government program all these supposed "small government conservatives" would want to have put in place to hunt down all the young women.

The task force, the government program, police, lawyers, wiretaps, prisons, lobbies, we're probably talking hundreds of billions of dollars every year.

Besides common sense says all making abortions illegal would do would create a black market for them, just like the drug war has done. So essentially the "pro-life" crowd just wants abortions done by black market thugs rather than doctors or self-done, and they want them performed in back alleys and bathrooms rather than doctor's clinics.

'Criminalizing x does not end all instances of x, therefore x should be legal?'

Do you really want to run with that?

 

[Cecilie1200]

And? What's your point?

Just as a human shares part of it's DNA with a chimp.... does not mean it is the same.. the child has it's own UNIQUE DNA signature.. that is neither the mother's nor the fathers....

The DNA isn't what makes an individual

I believe it was Cecil who brought up identical twins

your premise is fallacious

Not entirely. DNA is one way of distinguishing one individual from another. It is not, however, the only criteria for one to be considered an individual organism, which is a good thing since, as I pointed out, indentical twins have identical DNA.

 

[Ravi]

I thought you wanted to make serious arguments.

Hey, at least he's stopped going around claiming that the American left is forcing people to abort.

He's moved on to arguing that birth is an insignificant event in human life.

It's funny he argues that since he probably spends much of his time in a fetal position. Or foetal position as he spells it.

Methinks he has fetus envy.