Why can't gays accept civil unions and just be done with it?

[Seawytch]

Gays can't accept "civil unions" because there are too many legal differences between a civil union and marriage.
You have every right not to understand or even not to like the idea but you do not have any power to deny anyone the right to marry.

I'm starting to agree. I just want marriage to be defined as between consenting adults(can be any number). Simple as that.

Who are you to tell me not to have a dozen wife's?

Well, I've heard the point made more than once that "we can't afford to let gays get married" because then we'd be able to file joint taxes and we'd be on each other's health insurance policies (which could actually lower costs, BTW) etc. Could you imagine their heads exploding about multiple spouses? Lordy!

Of course, what's the difference...a write of is a write off. We don't limit the kids you can have.

 

[kaz]

There are no “self appointed Federal dictators.”

Judges were appointed/elected to fill their Constitutional role, they were not appointed to be dictators. When they legislate from the bench, they are criminals. No one appointed them dictator, they appointed themselves that. Individuals or vote of 5, 7 or 9 people cannot just decree law. Sorry, Charlie. Of course you know that when they aren't liberals doing it.

 

[Seawytch]

Could you be a little more specific of "don't think marriage should be a government function at all" means in the real world?

1) As you said, I would eliminate all current laws.

2) I would make a bunch of fixes that should already be done. The death tax is evil, no one should have to pay it. People are already having massive births out of marriage, parental legal rights/responsibilities should be clarified anyway. And that would assist eliminating "marriage" as a government function as well.

3) As for things like if a woman is quitting her job, the couple could have a contract. I love you honey, I'll raise our wonderful kids. On the other hand, if you leave me for your secretary you rat bastard, than I want half our pile and income for 10 years, or a third, or it all, or whatever they agree to. Of course they could amend it over time by agreement. That contract is what courts would enforce.

3) Marriages would be performed and recognized by whatever religion/association you like or just between you. So let's say you are Catholic. The Catholic church can say if you want a Catholic wedding, then you go to pre-marriage counseling, get the blessing of the church, etc as they do now. They could also have a Catholic wedding contract if they want one. It could be rigid or just require certain terms be included. If you want the Catholic wedding you agree, if you don't you pass and do your own, which they may chose not to recognize.

4) Contracts can be between any consenting adult who wants them. Man/woman, Man/man, whatever.

5) I am a strong believer in our having a "Federal" government, not what we have. I'm referring to the actual definition of the word, not how it's used today. Power divided is power checked. So I would not force but would favor States to following it. As for the Federal Government, all citizens should be treated the same, meaning there is no difference between any citizen regardless of marriage or other factors. We are individuals.

However, regarding the full faith and credit clause, I would require each State that does have "marriage" to be able to state their definition in a "contract" covering what their marriage entailed when the contract was signed. I phrase it that way because if the State changes their definition, the Federal government would not recognize the retroactive changes or require States to enforce those changes. When you marry, you should only change the agreement by choice of the parties involved. I would also require the States to honor each other's contracts so someone can't move out of State to get out of their agreement.

Who is drafting up all these contracts?

And I apologize for calling you a homophobe. You're a lawyer

 

[kaz]

And when a state amends its constitution, which was the case with Proposition 8, eliminating the legislative option, same-sex couples, or any other adversely effective group, have no other recourse than to seek remedy in the courts.

Again, this was all avoidable.

Now that's funny. The people must be kept out of making laws, that's a role for the government. So if the people in a State vote for a referendum recognizing gay marriage and you were on the bench, you'd strike it down as Unconstitutional! Bull, it's the result you want by whatever method you can get it.

Logic, don't try it at home liberals. When used in correctly, it blows up in your face. Which for you is every time you try to use it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

 

[kaz]

I must have missed the serious points

To you a serious point is one you agree with. The rest is the yawn fest. I'll talk to you if you want an exchange of ideas or just want to have some fun. You're interested in neither.

 

[kaz]

Could you be a little more specific of "don't think marriage should be a government function at all" means in the real world?

1) As you said, I would eliminate all current laws.

2) I would make a bunch of fixes that should already be done. The death tax is evil, no one should have to pay it. People are already having massive births out of marriage, parental legal rights/responsibilities should be clarified anyway. And that would assist eliminating "marriage" as a government function as well.

3) As for things like if a woman is quitting her job, the couple could have a contract. I love you honey, I'll raise our wonderful kids. On the other hand, if you leave me for your secretary you rat bastard, than I want half our pile and income for 10 years, or a third, or it all, or whatever they agree to. Of course they could amend it over time by agreement. That contract is what courts would enforce.

3) Marriages would be performed and recognized by whatever religion/association you like or just between you. So let's say you are Catholic. The Catholic church can say if you want a Catholic wedding, then you go to pre-marriage counseling, get the blessing of the church, etc as they do now. They could also have a Catholic wedding contract if they want one. It could be rigid or just require certain terms be included. If you want the Catholic wedding you agree, if you don't you pass and do your own, which they may chose not to recognize.

4) Contracts can be between any consenting adult who wants them. Man/woman, Man/man, whatever.

5) I am a strong believer in our having a "Federal" government, not what we have. I'm referring to the actual definition of the word, not how it's used today. Power divided is power checked. So I would not force but would favor States to following it. As for the Federal Government, all citizens should be treated the same, meaning there is no difference between any citizen regardless of marriage or other factors. We are individuals.

However, regarding the full faith and credit clause, I would require each State that does have "marriage" to be able to state their definition in a "contract" covering what their marriage entailed when the contract was signed. I phrase it that way because if the State changes their definition, the Federal government would not recognize the retroactive changes or require States to enforce those changes. When you marry, you should only change the agreement by choice of the parties involved. I would also require the States to honor each other's contracts so someone can't move out of State to get out of their agreement.

Who is drafting up all these contracts?

And I apologize for calling you a homophobe. You're a lawyer

I missed you calling me a homophobe, that must have been in one of the posts my head hit the desk in absolute boredom.

Anyone can write a contract. As I said if you're getting a religious wedding, they are likely to have a contract or a boiler plate. There would be lots of boilerplates available on the internet. I'd have no problem with government providing an optional boiler plate. The couple can write it themselves.

If you're referring to who's going to pay for it. If you're suggesting the cost of writing a contract is a reason to have government marriage, that's like trying to nail a brad in with a jack hammer.

 

[Seawytch]

1) As you said, I would eliminate all current laws.

2) I would make a bunch of fixes that should already be done. The death tax is evil, no one should have to pay it. People are already having massive births out of marriage, parental legal rights/responsibilities should be clarified anyway. And that would assist eliminating "marriage" as a government function as well.

3) As for things like if a woman is quitting her job, the couple could have a contract. I love you honey, I'll raise our wonderful kids. On the other hand, if you leave me for your secretary you rat bastard, than I want half our pile and income for 10 years, or a third, or it all, or whatever they agree to. Of course they could amend it over time by agreement. That contract is what courts would enforce.

3) Marriages would be performed and recognized by whatever religion/association you like or just between you. So let's say you are Catholic. The Catholic church can say if you want a Catholic wedding, then you go to pre-marriage counseling, get the blessing of the church, etc as they do now. They could also have a Catholic wedding contract if they want one. It could be rigid or just require certain terms be included. If you want the Catholic wedding you agree, if you don't you pass and do your own, which they may chose not to recognize.

4) Contracts can be between any consenting adult who wants them. Man/woman, Man/man, whatever.

5) I am a strong believer in our having a "Federal" government, not what we have. I'm referring to the actual definition of the word, not how it's used today. Power divided is power checked. So I would not force but would favor States to following it. As for the Federal Government, all citizens should be treated the same, meaning there is no difference between any citizen regardless of marriage or other factors. We are individuals.

However, regarding the full faith and credit clause, I would require each State that does have "marriage" to be able to state their definition in a "contract" covering what their marriage entailed when the contract was signed. I phrase it that way because if the State changes their definition, the Federal government would not recognize the retroactive changes or require States to enforce those changes. When you marry, you should only change the agreement by choice of the parties involved. I would also require the States to honor each other's contracts so someone can't move out of State to get out of their agreement.

Who is drafting up all these contracts?

And I apologize for calling you a homophobe. You're a lawyer

I missed you calling me a homophobe, that must have been in one of the posts my head hit the desk in absolute boredom.

Anyone can write a contract. As I said if you're getting a religious wedding, they are likely to have a contract or a boiler plate. There would be lots of boilerplates available on the internet. I'd have no problem with government providing an optional boiler plate. The couple can write it themselves.

If you're referring to who's going to pay for it. If you're suggesting the cost of writing a contract is a reason to have government marriage, that's like trying to nail a brad in with a jack hammer.

No, I'm just wondering of the legality of these contracts. How will they be enforced? How will they apply to immigration law or when traveling abroad? Will children be in these contracts?

Tell you what, while you're working on legislation to get this all done, I'm going to just keep fighting for equal access to existing civil marriage protections. I have a feeling mine is the winning proposition.

 

[Seawytch]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

The bible was used as justification of both slavery and anti miscegenation laws. Would you, today, consider them bigots? Would you have advised those that believed it to stick by their values?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

Your scripture was never the basis for this country's law.

 

[Seawytch]

And when a state amends its constitution, which was the case with Proposition 8, eliminating the legislative option, same-sex couples, or any other adversely effective group, have no other recourse than to seek remedy in the courts.

Again, this was all avoidable.

Now that's funny. The people must be kept out of making laws, that's a role for the government. So if the people in a State vote for a referendum recognizing gay marriage and you were on the bench, you'd strike it down as Unconstitutional! Bull, it's the result you want by whatever method you can get it.

Logic, don't try it at home liberals. When used in correctly, it blows up in your face. Which for you is every time you try to use it.

How would a referendum granting marriage equality violate the 14th Amendment?

The reason Prop 8 has been found unconstitutional is because it took away rights already granted. (one of the 18K)

 

[kaz]

And when a state amends its constitution, which was the case with Proposition 8, eliminating the legislative option, same-sex couples, or any other adversely effective group, have no other recourse than to seek remedy in the courts.

Again, this was all avoidable.

Now that's funny. The people must be kept out of making laws, that's a role for the government. So if the people in a State vote for a referendum recognizing gay marriage and you were on the bench, you'd strike it down as Unconstitutional! Bull, it's the result you want by whatever method you can get it.

Logic, don't try it at home liberals. When used in correctly, it blows up in your face. Which for you is every time you try to use it.

How would a referendum granting marriage equality violate the 14th Amendment?

The reason Prop 8 has been found unconstitutional is because it took away rights already granted. (one of the 18K)

I mixed it up with the proposition 8 regarding property taxes.

Gay marriage and the 14th amendment have nothing to do with each other. Gays are treated exactly under the law the same as straights.

 

[Seawytch]

Now that's funny. The people must be kept out of making laws, that's a role for the government. So if the people in a State vote for a referendum recognizing gay marriage and you were on the bench, you'd strike it down as Unconstitutional! Bull, it's the result you want by whatever method you can get it.

Logic, don't try it at home liberals. When used in correctly, it blows up in your face. Which for you is every time you try to use it.

How would a referendum granting marriage equality violate the 14th Amendment?

The reason Prop 8 has been found unconstitutional is because it took away rights already granted. (one of the 18K)

I mixed it up with the proposition 8 regarding property taxes.

Gay marriage and the 14th amendment have nothing to do with each other. Gays are treated exactly under the law the same as straights.

“Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California, and to officially reclassify their relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite-sex couples.”

Proposition 8 “unconstitutionally burdens the exercise of the fundamental right to marry and creates an irrational classification on the basis of sexual orientation.”

These are the rulings that will stand if the SCOTUS doesn't hear Prop 8...Unconstitutional.

 

[Seawytch]

Everything you need to know about the Supreme Court’s same-sex marriage cases

 

[kaz]

How would a referendum granting marriage equality violate the 14th Amendment?

The reason Prop 8 has been found unconstitutional is because it took away rights already granted. (one of the 18K)

I mixed it up with the proposition 8 regarding property taxes.

Gay marriage and the 14th amendment have nothing to do with each other. Gays are treated exactly under the law the same as straights.

“Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California, and to officially reclassify their relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite-sex couples.”

Proposition 8 “unconstitutionally burdens the exercise of the fundamental right to marry and creates an irrational classification on the basis of sexual orientation.”

These are the rulings that will stand if the SCOTUS doesn't hear Prop 8...Unconstitutional.

Regardless of the issue, the idea that government can overrule the people as "Unconstitutional" demonstrates that neither you nor the California courts know what a Constitution is.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

The bible was used as justification of both slavery and anti miscegenation laws. Would you, today, consider them bigots? Would you have advised those that believed it to stick by their values?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

Your scripture was never the basis for this country's law.

Hello, reality calls once again saying, you should read both Testaments of The Bible before commenting! Those who used the Bible for such things misconstrued it. That is not tolerable. But then you would stereotype me because of it. Interesting.

Read this. You're absolutely wrong. It held great sway on our law.

http://www.lonang.com/foundation/1/f18.htm

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

 

[Redfish]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

you are not alone, you are part of the majority. The minority is supported by the very vocal idiots in hollywood and the left wing media.

We should never give up on our principles.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

you are not alone, you are part of the majority. The minority is supported by the very vocal idiots in hollywood and the left wing media.

We should never give up on our principles.

Society has been shifting, that is a reality. All you have to do is look at the voting results of the early 2000's where anti-marriage equality referendums passed by 23%76% margins of victory in general elections, by 2008/2009 that margin had decreased to a point where only a 2.5% shift would have changed the outcome, then in 2012 there were 4 initiatives in the general ballot and all were won by same-sex Civil Marriage supporters (3 approving it outright, 1 defeat of an anti-marriage equality amendment). Then of course there are multiple national polls documenting the trend going back many years that show society is more accepting of homosexual relationships.

You of course are free to hold out that the "majority" are opposed to marriage equality, but the facts do not support you.


>>>>

 

[Redfish]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

you are not alone, you are part of the majority. The minority is supported by the very vocal idiots in hollywood and the left wing media.

We should never give up on our principles.

Society has been shifting, that is a reality. All you have to do is look at the voting results of the early 2000's where anti-marriage equality referendums passed by 23%76% margins of victory in general elections, by 2008/2009 that margin had decreased to a point where only a 2.5% shift would have changed the outcome, then in 2012 there were 4 initiatives in the general ballot and all were won by same-sex Civil Marriage supporters (3 approving it outright, 1 defeat of an anti-marriage equality amendment). Then of course there are multiple national polls documenting the trend going back many years that show society is more accepting of homosexual relationships.

You of course are free to hold out that the "majority" are opposed to marriage equality, but the facts do not support you.


>>>>

you are correct, the culture, ethics, and morals that made this country great are being gradually destroyed by leftists.

Why does anyone think that is a positive development?

 

[logical4u]

Still, no comment for

1. Allowing "civil unions" or REDEFINING marriage will bankrupt this nation, monetarily, if the benefits stand as they are. People that can legally give their gov't benefits to another (partner) will circumvent the laws for inheritance (so much for taxing the rich). SS benefits will be passed on to young adults that have chosen to play the system by legally joining their elderly benefactor (their does not have to be a "loving", intimate relationship). Same sex relatives will legally join to avoid inheritance taxes, and to scam social security benefits. Incest laws do not apply to same sex "couples".
2. Legally joining people for any other reason than "marriage" (in the traditional sense) will morally bankrupt this country. To avoid the above (see 1.), the gov't will either have to appoint witness panels (to verify the "union" was completed), or it will have to eliminate the benefits of marriage. That will hurt millions and millions of "children" that are dependent on married parents supporting them in a loving relationship where one parent is supported by the other during child-bearing and child-raising years. The benefits of the supporting spouse will not legally go to the other. People will become even more deceptive to get the benefits and support that is needed to raise a family, or families will simply not exist anymore. Children will be turned over to the "state" to be raised in a cold, unloving, calculating atmosphere where the gov't will be almighty and people will be part of the "collective" (so much for individuals).

Homosexuals are fully aware that their behavior is not "traditional" in any sense. Just like people that choose to have children out of wedlock, and raise those children on their own or in a "loving" relationship with a person they "choose" not to marry. I cannot understand how such a tiny percentage of the population wants to DESTROY the entire population, by demanding they are given "additional" privileges for choices that can be demonstrated to be immoral and unhealthy. In this country, you have a right to live within the laws as you please. You do not have a right to force a change onto society that will destroy the nation, and leave the "children" hopeless and bankrupt. Another sad testament in this country of personal "greed" over what is "best" for the community and country.


So much for these people "caring about the children"....

 

[PJC]

Dear Liberals,

I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for traditional marriage. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that marriage was between a man and woman. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the growing national consensus that agrees with same sex marriages?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. Is there something so wrong about that?

Dear All Americans,
I guess I must be a pretty mean person for wanting to stand up for God’s commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. I must be hateful or bigoted. For all of my life I was taught that we should have no other gods before Him. Now I'm at a crossroads. Do I let my morality take hold? Do I stick to my values? Or do I succumb to the national consensus that agrees with freedom of religion?

I feel like I am one of a dying breed of people. One day, I may be only one of a few that hold the beliefs I do... It's scary, living your entire life thinking you're right... Then having almost all of your countrymen side against you. I have been told that I should be guided by the law and not by my own morals, and that the scriptures of my faith should be no longer the basis for the law.

It's very disconcerting people. I fear that one day I will be seen as an outcast for what I believe in, or for wanting to stand up what I believe in. Things that not long ago were encouraged in this country. I cannot recognize my country anymore.

I am extremely worried. I don't want to be mean.. I don't want to be hateful.. But I don't want to let go values I hold dear. I simply want to force others to obey my God's law of worshipping only Him. Is there something so wrong about that?