Why are we so afraid to admit the obvious?

[boedicca]

Absolute nonsense if one also includes the HYUGE increases in deductibles,

Wrong, the deductibles continued to increase at about the same pace as before the ACA. And sabotage meant to reduce the risk pools was designed specifically to increase those deductibles and premiums, so that wingnut bloggers could craft the deceptive talking points you are regurgutate right now. So, instead of whining about these things, you should be taking credit for them, as you fully support the policies making them worse.

The data is sourced from Kaiser. Here is a longer time span, although it excludes deductibles. If ObabbleCare was supposed to contain cost increases, it is an epic fail - although that was never the intent. The real purpose is to pave the way to single-payer by destroying private health care.

View attachment 226646

Obamacare was not designed to lower medical costs. The first attempts contained such provisions, but those were deleted in an effort to compromise with republicans. So, again, you should be taking credit for the things you are complaining about. Frankly, that's odd to watch.

Yeah, no.

Wow man, that's deep.

Indeed. It shows quite succinctly how your claim that ObabbleCare wasn't supposed to lower costs is a Frelling Lie.

 

[bripat9643]

That's what every bankruptcy does, moron

No, it doesn't. Some have much bigger impact on local communities, and some so by design. You have no idea what you are talking about. Trump's were pretty awful. Not that you care. You would defend anything he said or did. These discussions with you are pointless.

Yes it does, turd. No bankruptcy ripped people off worse than the GM bankruptcy. It ripped off the taxpayers, most of all.

 

[longknife]

So much diversion and obfucation. Yet another thread down the tubes thanks to Snowflakes.

 

[sartre play]

How could any one really think because your a Republican or a Democrat your automatic a good or a bad guy, not logical, I may think there are more dishonest people who tell lies in your party,& you may feel the same. but crazy people come in all colors sizes and political preference.

 

[Olde Europe]

What blew my mind, and this is key, is that when you talk yourself into something, that means you really do believe it. You're not lying, you're not being insincere, you really believe it.

That's a fine insight, and there are more examples for it than one could hope for. Just look what we got here:

Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

[...]

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?​

The author is obviously scrambling to place blame for the exact same malfeasance on both sides, while in the end allowing for one side to be "worse", while doubting that "worse" doesn't matter. For, apparently, "worse" doesn't matter in case "hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose".

But then we know, "worse" does matter a good deal, because it would require all who are not blinkered by ideology to adjust their judgment in proportion to what the difference is.

That out of the way, let's just briefly point out that, as far as I've seen, we have on one side peddling a list of horrors, as peddled by Breitbart, a rightarded hate site and all-out crime against the truth, if there ever was one. It contains some minor instances of violence, but mostly indications that democracy is as messy and mettlesome as one should expect, amounting to the equivalent of a broken fingernail, that is to say, trumped up nonsense. The other side has just about every statistic about hate crimes as put together during the last decade by folks who know whereof they speak, including deadly violence originating by and large from the right, which is currently so rampant, law enforcement are at pains to control it.

Finally, let's look at one last item, the aforementioned hate, which is allegedly "flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose". Is that in fact so? Obviously, we have the most shameless propaganda fanning the flames of hatred against the press, against Mexicans, Hondurans, the caravan, alleged to contain dozens of ISIS fighters, and decried as an invasion force, and three incidents of right-wing violence during the last week alone. There is quite a bit of hate in there, sure. On the other side, I find desperation over the separation of kids from their families, contempt for all-out mendacity, concern over the rule of law, ridicule for the third-grader vocabulary and name-calling, revulsion from the ugliness of the spectacle, and, at most, very few voices calling for citizens to protect what is right and decent and to get into the faces of important U.S. officials to demand they reconsider their inhumane policies. That is to say, one side thrives on hate, and fanning the flames of hatred, of the Other, trying to depict a few thousand destitute folks trying to flee violence and unbearable living conditions in their home country. On the other hand, I see a very justifiable concern, passionate even, arising from that kind of electioneering, and the obvious invitation to violence it represents, and what may come of it. Perhaps most importantly, I see one side directing their hatred toward those way down on the social ladder, the other side raising their passionate objections toward those high, and highest, up the social scale. Which targets, would one think, are more likely to become the victims of violence?

I find, the sides differ considerably, and while I fear one of these confrontations Waters called for might get out of hand, you sure would agree the other side is worse, way worse, and if our judgment be just, we must account for that.

 

[Olde Europe]

Why, indeed, shouldn't we admit the obvious:

U.S. militia groups head to border, stirred by Trump’s call to arms

Gun-carrying civilian groups and border vigilantes have heard a call to arms in President Trump’s warnings about threats to American security posed by caravans of Central American migrants moving through Mexico. They’re packing coolers and tents, oiling rifles and tuning up aerial drones, with plans to form caravans of their own and trail American troops to the border.​

The hate-filled call to arms was heard, and is being answered, gun in hand.

 

[JoeB131]

Not nearly as bad nor as HYUGE as all of the health care premium increases that transfer money from taxpayers to government dependents via ObabbleCare.

Yes, we know you are horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care... but it's actually cheaper than having them show up at emergency rooms.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes it does, turd. No bankruptcy ripped people off worse than the GM bankruptcy. It ripped off the taxpayers, most of all.

the Taxpayers got most of what they loaned GM Back. compared to if it went under and thousands of people collected unemployment.

What makes you guys angry is Obama looked out for the workers before the investors...

 

[candycorn]

Yes it does, turd. No bankruptcy ripped people off worse than the GM bankruptcy. It ripped off the taxpayers, most of all.

the Taxpayers got most of what they loaned GM Back. compared to if it went under and thousands of people collected unemployment.

What makes you guys angry is Obama looked out for the workers before the investors...

Not sure about your reasoning....I would say what made them angry was that Obama had the opportunity to do the right thing, did it, it was a success as it was more often than not with President Obama. The counter argument that the conserve-hate-ives make is so ludicrous that it is seldom made any longer.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes it does, turd. No bankruptcy ripped people off worse than the GM bankruptcy. It ripped off the taxpayers, most of all.

the Taxpayers got most of what they loaned GM Back. compared to if it went under and thousands of people collected unemployment.

What makes you guys angry is Obama looked out for the workers before the investors...

If it went under, without Obama stepping in, the bond holders would have got their money back, and they could have invested it in something more profitable. Instead the taxpayers got saddled with these onerous union contracts that requires them to pay absurd union benefits for the next 50 years.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes it does, turd. No bankruptcy ripped people off worse than the GM bankruptcy. It ripped off the taxpayers, most of all.

the Taxpayers got most of what they loaned GM Back. compared to if it went under and thousands of people collected unemployment.

What makes you guys angry is Obama looked out for the workers before the investors...

Not sure about your reasoning....I would say what made them angry was that Obama had the opportunity to do the right thing, did it, it was a success as it was more often than not with President Obama. The counter argument that the conserve-hate-ives make is so ludicrous that it is seldom made any longer.

Were the Americans who signed up after the bombing of Pearl Harbor "hate filled?"

 

[JoeB131]

If it went under, without Obama stepping in, the bond holders would have got their money back, and they could have invested it in something more profitable.

Yeah, so? I'm really not concerned about rich people getting richer. They already have plenty.

I'm worried about working folks being able to keep their jobs, which is what happened here.

Point was, they gambled and they lost. Can't feel really bad for them that the bailout they lobbied for didn't get them the payback they wanted.

 

[Rustic]

If it went under, without Obama stepping in, the bond holders would have got their money back, and they could have invested it in something more profitable.

Yeah, so? I'm really not concerned about rich people getting richer. They already have plenty.

I'm worried about working folks being able to keep their jobs, which is what happened here.

Point was, they gambled and they lost. Can't feel really bad for them that the bailout they lobbied for didn't get them the payback they wanted.

​

 

[JoeB131]

Were the Americans who signed up after the bombing of Pearl Harbor "hate filled?"

Um, yeah, kind of..

 

[bripat9643]

Were the Americans who signed up after the bombing of Pearl Harbor "hate filled?"

Um, yeah, kind of..

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View attachment 226811

So you aren't really against hate.

 

[bripat9643]

If it went under, without Obama stepping in, the bond holders would have got their money back, and they could have invested it in something more profitable.

Yeah, so? I'm really not concerned about rich people getting richer. They already have plenty.

I'm worried about working folks being able to keep their jobs, which is what happened here.

Point was, they gambled and they lost. Can't feel really bad for them that the bailout they lobbied for didn't get them the payback they wanted.

In other words, you don't give a damn about rights or principles. You only care whether your group wins and the other group loses. That's the way to have a just society.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't think it is obvious.

It should be. But people blind themselves. Anne we are so outraged at one another it keeps us from seeing

 

[JoeB131]

In other words, you don't give a damn about rights or principles. You only care whether your group wins and the other group loses. That's the way to have a just society.

Okay, let's look at that.

In a just society, the reason why there is a GM is because hard working folks for generations showed up and built cars. There used to be a time when the Auto Industry understood workers were their business. "If my workers can't afford my products, I don't have a business" said Henry Ford. And for most of the 20th Century, both parties put working folks ahead of investors.

Then we linked our economy to the Wall Street Casino, where great companies like Sears got destroyed by speculation and greed. This is a good in your world? I don't think so.

 

[Mac1958]

The author is obviously scrambling to place blame for the exact same malfeasance on both sides, while in the end allowing for one side to be "worse", while doubting that "worse" doesn't matter. For, apparently, "worse" doesn't matter in case "hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose". But then we know, "worse" does matter a good deal, because it would require all who are not blinkered by ideology to adjust their judgment in proportion to what the difference is.

Never have I used the term "exact same" or anything approaching that, yet I've been accused of it a thousand times. At least the intellectual dishonesty of this place remains consistent.

The point is that, with hate flowing out of both ends like water from a fire hose, we're not going to begin to go in a positive direction until both ends stop pointing the finger at the other and start holding their own side accountable for its words and actions.

But, because that would take far too much effort (beating on something with a stick is far easier than doing some heavy lifting), and because tribe members are terrified of challenging their own tribe, I'm not holding my breath. We simply no longer have the capacity.
.

 

[JoeB131]

Never have I used the term "exact same" or anything approaching that, yet I've been accused of it a thousand times. At least the intellectual dishonesty of this place remains consistent.

The point is that, with hate flowing out of both ends like water from a fire hose, we're not going to begin to go in a positive direction until both ends stop pointing the finger at the other and start holding their own side accountable for its words and actions.

But, because that would take far too much effort (beating on something with a stick is far easier than doing some heavy lifting), I'm not holding my breath.

He claims both sides aren't equal and then says they are both equal. Too sweet.

Sorry, there's only one side that has embraced Nazis, called them good people and put small children in concentration camps, Stormy Mac. It's the side you keep making excuses for.