Why are morality and religion linked?

[Bullypulpit]

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
– John Adams, 1798

One need not be religious to be moral, and history has shown us that some of the most immoral people are those who claim to be religious.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Bully, you seem to have alot of thoughts regarding religion!
what's the scoop with that!

Remember them chubby little trinkets that we used to get when we were little, the ones of that little fat bastard where it was claimed if you rub his belly you'll have good luck? That's who Bully prays to.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Actually, I think that this is an excellent question. I'm not religious by ANY stretch of the imagination but I am very spiritual. I have a moral code of conduct as high as anyone elses yet disagree with many stances as well.

I don't think one has to be both or either, but then again I've been labeled a moral relativist so many freakin times it isn't funny anymore.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Buddha? I seriously believe that Bully is the Anti - Christ!

Yes, Bully is a Buddhist. Do we have good luck if we rub Bully's belly?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Yes, Bully is a Buddhist. Do we have good luck if we rub Bully's belly?

I'm thinking of the proverbial ten foot pole, jim. :

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I'm thinking of the proverbial ten foot pole, jim. :

You'd like to hit Bully with a 10ft pole?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Dunno! Have to get me a little BuddhaPulpit statue and see!

See how much we love you, Bully? You're having little action figures made after you now! I can feel the love in the air!

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by jimnyc
You'd like to hit Bully with a 10ft pole?

No, Bully is alot of things but worthy of a ten foot pole smack isn't one of them.

I was ACTUALLY talking about not TOUCHING something with the proverb......like this statement here "Do we have good luck if we rub Bully's belly?"........but you knew that, didn't ya :

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
No, Bully is alot of things but worthy of a ten foot pole smack isn't one of them.

I was ACTUALLY talking about not TOUCHING something with the proverb......like this statement here "Do we have good luck if we rub Bully's belly?"........but you knew that, didn't ya :

Yep, I did! It's too much fun taking a potshot at Bully though.

Sorry, Bully, I still love you though!

 

[Hobbit]

Morality is linked to religion because morality was founded in religion. Most modern laws are based on ancient religious laws. I mean, when sworn in in a court of law, you have to place your hand on the Bible.

And as for some of the most immoral people being religious, there's a difference between claiming a religion and following that religion. I'm not too familiar on the teachings of the Quran, but from what I hear, suicide bombers are not following its teachings. Jesus taught peace, pacifism, treating others the way you wanted to be treated, and turning the other cheek. The only time he got violent was at the desecration of a temple by profiteers, and then he didn't hurt anybody. That being the case, immoral, violent Christians do not follow the words of Christ.

 

[KLSuddeth]

I am not religious. I am more spiritual than the average person. Why? Not because Im better than anyone else, but because Im educated HIGHLY in all matters of religion and understand it's history, reasons as well as current and historic reasons and motives. That is the number one reason that Im NOT religious. That, and Ive not seen anything in the bible that states if Im not ____________ (fill in the blank with your choice(s) of religion here pls) that I will go to 'hell'.

Why are they linked? Because people need something to believe in (IMO) and THAT is way more accepted and a lot easier to accept then taking the personal responsiblity for one's actions that is so extremely important.

There is my 2 cents.

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
That, and Ive not seen anything in the bible that states if Im not ____________ (fill in the blank with your choice(s) of religion here pls) that I will go to 'hell'.

What about "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6?

For the record, I'm not claiming in any way that only Christians can be moral, only that western moral values are founded in Judeo-Christian beliefs. I've known plenty of atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. who were very very moral.

 

[KLSuddeth]

OK Hobbit - lets discuss this.

First of all, define that quote to me - what do you feel it means.
And are you sure that you quoted it correctly?

 

[KLSuddeth]

need to make a starbucks run - but I will check for your response when I return. Im looking forward to this discussion.

Just letting ya know so you dont think incorrectly that Im simply not answering.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
One need not be religious to be moral, and history has shown us that some of the most immoral people are those who claim to be religious.

The reason this is a tricky question, is that the country was set up by a bunch of guys who were predominantly Christian, and the statement made was to be ASSUMED to be in line with that since it WAS the overwhelming way of believing. Today, that isn't the case.

IF you want to understand WHY they thought that way as opposed to why it would apply TODAY, there are 2 different paths to go down.

In the past, since it was a Christian belief system being discussed, you would have to prove validity of Biblical text in order to prove it real and logical to show morality to be linked....otherwise it is just philosophy. This was easily done through the fact that there was only one version of Biblical text that a person could have since the catholic church taught that only they could discern the Bible and their version never got out.

People had a Bible and the idea among believers was that since they had a personal relationship with Christ through a cause and effect physical proof, combined with Biblical prophecy, it was what it claimed: the unerrant word of God.

For those who didn't profess to be Christian, most believed in a God of similar nature, but called him the God "of nature" and left themselves with the logic without the relationship. They accepted the logicality of the moral code and moved on.

Today, we have a bunch of people who belive philosophies, call them religions, miss the idea of Christianity (including the relationship), and often lump it into one big pot of "take what you like, they are all ok."

That is why apply rationale from today without proper perspective of the founders makes no sense. When the people of that time made the Constitution and all public documents, they did not want anyone to be forced under a strict belief system as they were escaping and believed that a person had a CHOICE to become a Christian, which IS as Jesus taught.

Therefore, in the Constitution and the other public documents, freedom was held intact and sacred.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
OK Hobbit - lets discuss this.

First of all, define that quote to me - what do you feel it means.
And are you sure that you quoted it correctly?

:cof:

I am grabbing my popcorn and pulling up a recliner.

 

[Hobbit]

I pulled it straight from the NIV Bible, and it's the same in nearly every other translation, with the only differences being archaic words. The meaning is still the same. Jesus was saying that the only way to God was through him and acceptance of him. Now, as far as I can tell, if you don't get to God, you don't get to Heaven, and if you don't get to Heaven, you get to Hell. Now, I don't know this as truth, seeing as how I am not God, but it's the conclusion I have drawn, given the evidence. As nice as it would be if there was some third place to go if you were a good person, but didn't accept Christ, I don't believe there is such a place. Now, to the second part of that, the acceptance of Jesus. In my mind, brand name, denomination, and specific doctrine do not matter in the big picture. If you accept Christ, you are a Christian. That's all it takes. Now, that's what I believe and I'm sticking to it.

 

[NewGuy]

As nice as it would be if there was some third place to go if you were a good person, but didn't accept Christ, I don't believe there is such a place. Now, to the second part of that, the acceptance of Jesus.

Actually, the place USED to exist and it wasn't used that way. Jesus went there, and changed it while taking people to heaven that were there.

I will have to look that one up as I don't recall the exact passages.

However, catholocism teaches that purgatory is the place all people go until their speaking to the dead somehow magically gets favor with God and lets them in to heaven.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Im back from Starbucks and a much happier person now lol

I am re-reading this thread as well as the responses that were posted while I was away. Im going to ponder this, collect my thoughts, compare them with fact, correlate THAT with my opinions, then respond. I double-minored in theology and theosophy so I am going to be pulling up from that the points I intend to make. (i will try to include links, but its hard to link to 9 years of classes lol)

New Guy, in case I havent told you, I just love your posts....on everything. I respect intelligence and responsibility and your posts reflect both.

 

[KLSuddeth]

Remember them chubby little trinkets that we used to get when we were little, the ones of that little fat bastard where it was claimed if you rub his belly you'll have good luck? That's who Bully prays to.

Hey Jim....what if I told you that I am Buddhist???



(jk - Im not. I subscribe to no religion. just thought Id razz ya some)

:cof: