Who's Fault is it Really?

[BluePhantom]

Another reason why you see different interpretations is because certain things or relationships that existed in antiquity no longer exist or vice verse. Revelation, for example, is essentially a letter that says "God is in control, go Christianity, down with Caesar, and Rome will fall". Well what do you do with that when Christianity becomes Rome? You can't have a book in there that says "Rome is evil" after Rome has become a Christian Empire. What do you do? You do exactly what they did and re-interpret Revelation as referring to the future instead of the struggle that existed between the empire and church at the time it was written. This had the added benefit of being extremely effective at terrifying the shit out of the peasants in order to get them to behave as the church and the Emperor wanted them to. Modern churches that are aware of this (Catholic, Anglican, et. al.) don't focus on Revelation very much and when they do refer to it, it is rarely from a futuristic perspective. Churches that are not aware of it can sometimes make Revelation a huge part of their belief system. Thus you get different messages

 

[Darkwind]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

So, engineers are all taught the same thing.....yet....they come up with different things....don't they?

Old school...



But the same engineering students came up with this..




How is that possible?!!!???!!!

You would make a great Christian apologist! You just gave the most mistaken analogue in terms of what is being said ever.

You are allowed to use creativity to change the design of the bridge, but the fundamental understanding of how to make a safe bridge is still the same.

The same goes for religion--you are allowed to use creativity to spread the message, but the underlining message must stay the same. However, the underlining message in the op's example are different-- get it?

Well, I'm not to surprised it went over your head.

 

[the_human_being]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

Well there are many reasons why you see so many different interpretations of scripture. One is because the languages used to write the Bible are so old that many words mean different things today than they did when they were written and the meanings of some words have been lost to history completely. So when things got translated throughout history many of the words changed.

For example, JakeStarkey and I were discussing this on a different thread. In 1 Corinthians 13, the KJV talks about the importance of "charity". But if you read it in Greek, which the KJV was translated from, the section is talking about "love". So why is it different? Well because in the 17th century when the KJV was translated, "charity" and "love" meant the same thing when used as a noun. So if someone said "I give you all the charity in my heart" they were saying "I love you". Today charity means something else. So people who are aware of this difference will say that 1 Cor. 13 is about treating each other with respect. Those who are unaware of this think 1 Cor. 13 is talking about giving money to the needy. So that's just a simple example of an effect of language and translation that was just a few hundred years ago. Imagine how the problem multiplies when you are looking at things that were written 2,000 years ago or more.

By comparison lawyers, in the USA, use laws that were written recently and in English originally so there are far fewer language problems. Engineers rely upon principles that stay constant. For example, a given type of stone can support a given amount of weight and that has remained constant for thousands of years.

So you are simply arguing that after two thousand years, the Bible colleges with all their professors and doctorates, still haven't the foggiest of ideas what a single little book actually says.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Hey BP,did you get my last pm by chance?

 

[PratchettFan]

He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

As should all those who spent their time and money on watching television...

So, you say it is the sinner's fault for watching television preachers. What might he have heard had he attended different churches on any given Sunday? Anything different than what he heard on his television?

Of course it is. He is responsible for everything he does.

 

[BluePhantom]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

Well there are many reasons why you see so many different interpretations of scripture. One is because the languages used to write the Bible are so old that many words mean different things today than they did when they were written and the meanings of some words have been lost to history completely. So when things got translated throughout history many of the words changed.

For example, JakeStarkey and I were discussing this on a different thread. In 1 Corinthians 13, the KJV talks about the importance of "charity". But if you read it in Greek, which the KJV was translated from, the section is talking about "love". So why is it different? Well because in the 17th century when the KJV was translated, "charity" and "love" meant the same thing when used as a noun. So if someone said "I give you all the charity in my heart" they were saying "I love you". Today charity means something else. So people who are aware of this difference will say that 1 Cor. 13 is about treating each other with respect. Those who are unaware of this think 1 Cor. 13 is talking about giving money to the needy. So that's just a simple example of an effect of language and translation that was just a few hundred years ago. Imagine how the problem multiplies when you are looking at things that were written 2,000 years ago or more.

By comparison lawyers, in the USA, use laws that were written recently and in English originally so there are far fewer language problems. Engineers rely upon principles that stay constant. For example, a given type of stone can support a given amount of weight and that has remained constant for thousands of years.

So you are simply arguing that after two thousand years, the Bible colleges with all their professors and doctorates, still haven't the foggiest of ideas what a single little book actually says.

Well to some degree, yeah! We know what it says now, but what it said when it was first written is anyone's guess. That's the whole focus of such areas of scholarly research as textual criticism. Those scholars are trying to re-construct what the Bible said when it was first written. The earliest complete copy of the Bible that we still have is from the 4th century CE. That's about 200 years after the books of the New Testament were originally written (depending on which book you are looking at). The extent to which they were changed, either intentionally or by simple error in copying, is anyone's guess.

We know they were changed however. Codex Vaticanus, one of the earliest extant copies of the Bible, has a famous section in Hebrews 1:3 where a scribe copied something, it was scratched out and changed to say something else, that was scratched out and changed back and the original scribe wrote a note in the margin that said "Fool and knave! Leave the older reading and quit changing it!" So one of our very earliest copies of the Bible contains evidence of people changing what was written before.

Now to say they don't have the foggiest idea is quite overstated. We know a lot about what it says, but there are other things, sometimes very critical things, that we don't know and that creates some disagreement

 

[turzovka]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

 

[the_human_being]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

 

[HaShev]

And this confusion occurs because none of those varied beliefs know what the Biblical era term "Clouds" meant in context of Theslonians which borrows from Daniel and it's use of the term. This is because 1)they have not grabed the garment of a Jew or Rabbi to ask them about their Tanakh and Hebrew language.
and 2) like I said, without a central source (the Mikdash) to clearify these mistakes then you have some rediculous and often comical beliefs that contradict reality and logic.

 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe the problem is they are relying on a book instead of the Spirit.

God did not limit Himself to the Bible. Men did that.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Lord gives multiple witnesses for a reason.

 

[BluePhantom]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

I explained the rapture just a couple days ago on a different thread.

Here you go

Understanding the Mentality and World View of the Christian Fundamentalist Page 32 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[the_human_being]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

I explained the rapture just a couple days ago on a different thread.

Here you go

Understanding the Mentality and World View of the Christian Fundamentalist Page 32 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

My OP is not about any given doctrine. You totally miss my point.

 

[BluePhantom]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

I explained the rapture just a couple days ago on a different thread.

Here you go

Understanding the Mentality and World View of the Christian Fundamentalist Page 32 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

My OP is not about any given doctrine. You totally miss my point.

No I get your point completely. You are wondering why there are so many different interpretations of the same scripture and you find that frustrating. I am simply telling you some of the reasons why that happens. You brought up the rapture. You are right...different churches preach different things. Why? Because some read the Bible literally, some read the books in the Bible as separate and individual books of literature, and some try to cram it all together so that contradictions make sense.

For example, in Matthew, Judas hangs himself. In Luke/Acts he falls off a cliff. So which is it? There is a contradiction. So because it is unclear some people will teach that he hanged himself. Others will teach that he fell off a cliff. Other will teach that we have no idea how he died because there is a contradiction. Yet others are threatened by that contradiction and argue that he hanged himself on a tree that was overhanging a cliff, the rope broke, and down he went. While this is utterly ridiculous, they craft that story in order to explain away the contradiction. So you have four different teachings on the death of Judas.

That's why you have so many different beliefs and why different churches teach different things

 

[turzovka]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

Well maybe that is what happens when they leave the Church Jesus Christ established and start their own.

Well maybe that is what happens when those other denominations insist the Bible is the only revealed word from God (and insist on their own preferred interpretations if not spin) and not that of "the prophets" (read: saints). Jesus Christ established His Church to have "the keys of the kingdom," to be His authority on earth, to what He said "whatsoever you hold bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven." Who do you think He was speaking to and referring to? He was speaking to Peter whom he made the first head of His Church and to that Church to whom He said it would be led by the Holy Spirit and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee. Jesus also said "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Who divided it? Luther and company.

So go research Catholic dogma, doctrines, the miracles and lives of the saints, and tell me how our Church is so confused and changes its teachings all the time? For one, this Church never accepted a rapture. Not did it ever preach "saved by faith alone" or "the Bible alone."

 

[the_human_being]

We have law schools which graduate law students schooled in pretty much the same way from one to the other. We have engineering schools which teach their engineering students in pretty much the same way. We have many Christian Bible colleges which graduate our pastors, evangelists, and clergy supposedly using one basic book (the Bible) from which to teach all these graduates. Why then since basically only one book is used to teach so many are so many taught totally different things?

A sinner who has never been brought up in a church is surely at a disadvantage. He turns on his television and here is a preacher teaching that he is hell bound for his sins. He turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching all are saved and there is no hell awaiting him. He later turns the channel and here is a preacher teaching that the church will be zapped away in a pre-trib rapture to safety while he will suffer unimaginable horrors and everlasting punishment. He turns the channel again and he finds another preacher preaching that there will be no rapture at all of the church or anyone else. He turns the channel yet again and here's a preacher speaking in some kind of gibberish tongue. He throws up his hands and declares that all those who spent their time and money in all the different Bible colleges should get an immediate refund.

The core dogma of the Bible and of Christian teaching is not all that much different. When we start judging you or others, that is where a lot of the trouble lies.

The reason there is so much differences amongst denominations is because it is all being preached by sinners. No one is given crystal clear certainties on all supporting teachings. But if anyone says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and Savior of mankind, they are not Christian. If they deny the existence of heaven or hell and a judgment upon death, they are not Christian. If they tell you what will happen to you for certainty if you do not do X or Y or if you do do Z, they are not Christian either, at least, they are doing God a great disservice.

FYI, there are 10,000 protestant denominations that do not agree with each other many supporting doctrines or teachings, such as the rapture, and what it takes to be saved, etc. There is only one Catholic Church that has, for all intents and purposes, remained steadfast in its dogmas and doctrines for 2000 years. Think on that. All those others emerged 1,500 years or more since Jesus resurrection.

But I do not care to argue with any of them. I will say this and they can say what they want --- all the great miracles that occurred in front of throngs of witnesses, all the well documented apparitions of the Virgin Mary, all the stigmatas on saints bearing the wounds of Christ, all the weeping statues that science cannot explain --- all these manifestations of this nature occurred to Catholics. If God is speaking in ways other than His Word, it may be through His signs and wonders for which I, for one, am eternally grateful.

I try to look at things for what they are worth. It just doesn't make sense to me. Take the rapture doctrine for instance: One group preaches a pre-trib rapture, another preaches a post or mid-trib rapure, while yet another group preaches no rapture at all. At the very best here, 2 out of 3 of all these folks are preaching a false doctrine and would be better served to simply not preach their doctrine at all.

I explained the rapture just a couple days ago on a different thread.

Here you go

Understanding the Mentality and World View of the Christian Fundamentalist Page 32 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

My OP is not about any given doctrine. You totally miss my point.

No I get your point completely. You are wondering why there are so many different interpretations of the same scripture and you find that frustrating. I am simply telling you some of the reasons why that happens. You brought up the rapture. You are right...different churches preach different things. Why? Because some read the Bible literally, some read the books in the Bible as separate and individual books of literature, and some try to cram it all together so that contradictions make sense.

For example, in Matthew, Judas hangs himself. In Luke/Acts he falls off a cliff. So which is it? There is a contradiction. So because it is unclear some people will teach that he hanged himself. Others will teach that he fell off a cliff. Other will teach that we have no idea how he died because there is a contradiction. Yet others are threatened by that contradiction and argue that he hanged himself on a tree that was overhanging a cliff, the rope broke, and down he went. While this is utterly ridiculous, they craft that story in order to explain away the contradiction. So you have four different teachings on the death of Judas.

That's why you have so many different beliefs and why different churches teach different things

OK. You certainly do get my point.