Who Will Go To Heaven?

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Bully - you are going straight to hell for that avatar of yours! Man deface the president!, well guess will see you there!

And we'll have Dubbyuh right there with us.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by musicman
I only wish that atheists and homosexuals would stop trying to ram their agenda down America's throat (ala Newdow and the gay marriage crowd).

I don't see that asking for the same rights as heterosexuals is "ramming their agenda down America's throat." If you don't care what people do, then why does the idea of gays being married bother you so much? It's their lives, not yours. Similarly, atheists who try to convince people that there is no God aren't very different from those Christians who come knocking on your door or stop you on the street when you're minding your own business to try to talk you into accepting their beliefs.

I disagree with your assessment that the Constitution's primary focus is to protect religion from the state. Many of the Founders were Deists and not necessarily Christians. Deism is a rational, not faith-based, belief in God. Their idea was to create a society where adherents of one religion couldn't force their views on people of a different religion or no religion. While the exact phrase "separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution, the intent was clearly there.

The thing that killed your argument, as often happens when one tries to talk about religion with a Christian, is that when you found you couldn't win with logic you resorted to the old "because the Bible says so" cop-out. That argument is based on so many unprovable assumptions it's not even funny (e.g., that God exists, that the Bible is His literal word, that He condemns this or that behavior, etc.).

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
I don't see that asking for the same rights as heterosexuals is "ramming their agenda down America's throat." If you don't care what people do, then why does the idea of gays being married bother you so much? It's their lives, not yours. Similarly, atheists who try to convince people that there is no God aren't very different from those Christians who come knocking on your door or stop you on the street when you're minding your own business to try to talk you into accepting their beliefs.

I disagree with your assessment that the Constitution's primary focus is to protect religion from the state. Many of the Founders were Deists and not necessarily Christians. Deism is a rational, not faith-based, belief in God. Their idea was to create a society where adherents of one religion couldn't force their views on people of a different religion or no religion. While the exact phrase "separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution, the intent was clearly there.

The thing that killed your argument, as often happens when one tries to talk about religion with a Christian, is that when you found you couldn't win with logic you resorted to the old "because the Bible says so" cop-out. That argument is based on so many unprovable assumptions it's not even funny (e.g., that God exists, that the Bible is His literal word, that He condemns this or that behavior, etc.).

This is why debates of this nature are typically pointless. I find a strict measurement against the eternal truth of individual freedom will typically yield the high road, opening a path of glorious journey.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
"I don't see that asking for the same rights as heterosexuals is 'ramming their agenda down America's throat.' "

As someone stated earlier on this thread, homosexuals (and atheists) already have the same rights as everybody else. It's when they try to gangster their agenda onto the majority that the trouble starts.


original quote by SinisterMotives
"[The Founders'] idea was to create a society where adherents of one religion couldn't force their views on people of a different religion or no religion."


I don't know how you arrived at that. One of the primary reasons that our Founders came here was to escape religious persecution. That doesn't mean that they were being persecuted by religion! It just means that they wanted to practice their faith in peace, without interference from the state. More than a few modern-day Christians wish they had that same freedom.

original quote by SinisterMotives
"..... when you found you couldn't win with logic you resorted to the old 'because the Bible says so' cop-out."

I consider this chat room to be a forum for intelligent discourse and the free exchange of ideas, not some high school contest. So, when I mentioned the Bible, it didn't mean that I had quailed before your devastating logic (Let's see- how did that go again? Oh,yeah- injecting lab rats with hormones can alter some of their sexual traits. This, then, presents irrefutable proof that sexual preference in humans is determined genetically. Wow! Who can argue with that?). I was just trying to explain my thought processes to you.

Finally, it seems to me that a person who is secure in his or her beliefs can discuss them calmly and rationally. Yet, the mere mention of the name of God seems to send you into a towering, trembling snit. Why is that?

 

[Joz]

Have not been able to log on as Musicman (computer problems). The preceding reply was posted by MUSICMAN

 

[wonderwench]

Why do you have two identities here?

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by Joz
So, when I mentioned the Bible, it didn't mean that I had quailed before your devastating logic

Wow, you're thick. You said God condemns homosexuality as if it were a foregone conclusion. That premise assumes that (a) there is a God, and (b) that the Bible is his literal word. That's what I was calling you on. Please quit misconstruing what I say.

Originally posted by Joz
Oh,yeah- injecting lab rats with hormones can alter some of their sexual traits. This, then, presents irrefutable proof that sexual preference in humans is determined genetically. Wow! Who can argue with that?). I was just trying to explain my thought processes to you.

Again, you're deliberately twisting what I said. I explicitly said it wasn't conclusive proof, but that it is reason to believe that hormones play a role in determining sexual orientation. Go back and read my post, I guarantee you it's all there.

Originally posted by Joz
the mere mention of the name of God seems to send you into a towering, trembling snit. Why is that?

And again, it was your statement that some people who hold certain beliefs are qualified to say what's best for everyone that I found repugnant. If I recall correctly, you didn't even mention God in that statement.

Since you are now resorting to deliberately twisting my words to mean whatever you want them to mean, I see no point in talking to you further. Good day.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

 

[musicman]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Why do you have two identities here?

Two people....same house....same computer.

Was having difficulty logging on as Musicman. Used Joz log-on.

 

[wonderwench]

Oh - so you are a tag team. Isn't that a violation of the Marquis of Queensbury rules?

 

[musicman]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives


Reply to SinisterMotives:


Sorry you feel that way. For my part, found our conversation stimulating and engaging. Thank you. Have a nice day.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Oh - so you are a tag team. Isn't that a violation of the Marquis of Queensbury rules?

Does it matter? Like the Borg, they're of one mind and interchangeable.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Oh - so you are a tag team. Isn't that a violation of the Marquis of Queensbury rules?

Yeah, but it's cool in the WWF.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
Does it matter? Like the Borg, they're of one mind and interchangeable.

We're of like beliefs, not interchangeable minds. I happen to have one of my own.

 

[Avatar4321]

Wow, you're thick. You said God condemns homosexuality as if it were a foregone conclusion. That premise assumes that (a) there is a God, and (b) that the Bible is his literal word. That's what I was calling you on. Please quit misconstruing what I say.

If the premise that there is a God is wrong, (And its not) then we have no rights. We just have a government gracious enough to give them to us, but what the government has given they can take away. The existance of God is a cornerstone to our Constitution.


As for the second one. I agree. That premise can be and ought to be discussed. Personally I dont know what you mean by literal word. I know personally I believe the Bible contains the word of God. It also contains the words of good men and bad men. And the words of an ass rebuking his master on the road.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
If the premise that there is a God is wrong, (<i><font color=red>And its not</font></i>) then we have no rights.

<i>emphasis mine</i>

How do you know?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
<i>emphasis mine</i>

How do you know?

Bully, maybe one day god will decide to smack you hard and show you some serious shit. It happened to me. I will pray for your soul. I guess I could attribute stuff to exhaustion, emotional distress, but that still wouldn't explain the angels floating around in my room.

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you know?

Sighs. How many times do i have to answer this before you actually pay attention to what I say?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Bully, maybe one day god will decide to smack you hard and show you some serious shit. It happened to me. I will pray for your soul. I guess I could attribute stuff to exhaustion, emotional distress, but that still wouldn't explain the angels floating around in my room.

Well, you know, I lead a good life. I do no harm, I serve others through my pratice as a hospice nurse, I do good works...If that is not enough for any deity you might worship, then I want no part of it. Such a being is far to petty to rate my adoration. And if my life were to end this very moment, I would have no regrets.

So, you pray for me, I'll pray for you and we'll call it even.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
Sighs. How many times do i have to answer this before you actually pay attention to what I say?

When you actually have something to say.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Well, you know, I lead a good life. I do no harm, I serve others through my pratice as a hospice nurse, I do good works...If that is not enough for any deity you might worship, then I want no part of it. Such a being is far to petty to rate my adoration. And if my life were to end this very moment, I would have no regrets.

So, you pray for me, I'll pray for you and we'll call it even.

That works.