Who Will Go To Heaven?

[Joz]

Originally posted by Bern80
I just don't know why people like you are so sure........

And why are people like you so UNsure?

 

[Zhukov]

I would point out that the "spontaneous" generation of complex proteins from amino acids no more invalidates 2nd Thermo than the formation of stars and galaxies from interstellar gas, and no one disputes that happens. The order increased from one system is accompanied by a larger increase in entropy in another. Therefore, the net overall effect is increased entropy.

 

[wonderwench]

That won't convince Creationists, Z. They think God created the entire universe in 6 days.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Joz
And why are people like you so UNsure?

If you mean by UNsure that I just don't know then it's simple. The existence of a god is something that is not definitively known. It's something I need proof of.

I am unsure because, as I said earlier "if" a god exists non of the current religions have gotten it right. They don't embody any of the values or characteristics that i think a so called divine being would really care about. And since all of these faulted religions are based off of God it makes you wonder if one exists or if it's simple indoctrination.

 

[Avatar4321]

I am unsure because, as I said earlier "if" a god exists non of the current religions have gotten it right. They don't embody any of the values or characteristics that i think a so called divine being would really care about. And since all of these faulted religions are based off of God it makes you wonder if one exists or if it's simple indoctrination.

How do you know? have you studied all religions to know if they are getting it right? Besides which, how would you know if a religion is correct or not without going to the source IE God and finding out for yourself? How do you know what a divine being would really care about? Enlighten me what would a divine being care about? Tell me. please. Id like to know where you are coming from.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
How do you know? have you studied all religions to know if they are getting it right? Besides which, how would you know if a religion is correct or not without going to the source IE God and finding out for yourself? How do you know what a divine being would really care about? Enlighten me what would a divine being care about? Tell me. please. Id like to know where you are coming from.

It's fairly simple. If we don't know if a god exists we certainly can't know if organized religion, (let alone which one), is right.

What would a divine being care about? Well, maybe we should look at what one wouldn't care about. Like whether or not I go to church on Sunday, or whether I spend an afternoon on my knees in a temple, or whether someone is gay or straight, none of it really matters.

The only ideas we have about what a God would want or not want came from people just like you and me and you don't seem to think I'm a credible source, so what does that tell you?

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by wonderwench
That won't convince Creationists, Z. They think God created the entire universe in 6 days.

I can defend the existence of god taking into account the vast sum of accumulated scientific evidence. Though I'm an atheist, most scientists are in fact faithful deists of one sort or another. To me, if one accepts the existence of God it's perfectly acceptable to assume that He arranged every single particle perfectly in the orginial naked singularity that erupted in the Big Bag so that it natural led to the evolution of humanity and human history. He would after all be God, and therefore perfectly capable of what to us would be an impossibility considering uncertainty and chaos.

But for the people who believe in the literal 6 day translation, and discount the idea of "god days" which could be eons long (after all what is a day without the sun?), I would ask they ask themselves: what was the purpose of making it look like it took 3.5 billion years of evolution? To test your faith?

These are rhetorical questions. I'm not really interested in someone's hypothesis concerning God's plan.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by Bern80
It's fairly simple. If we don't know if a god exists we certainly can't know if organized religion, (let alone which one), is right.

What would a divine being care about? Well, maybe we should look at what one wouldn't care about. Like whether or not I go to church on Sunday, or whether I spend an afternoon on my knees in a temple, or whether someone is gay or straight, none of it really matters.

The only ideas we have about what a God would want or not want came from people just like you and me and you don't seem to think I'm a credible source, so what does that tell you?

I guess you didn't really read my first letter to you. I tho't it was pretty good myself. But Avatar reaffirmed part of what I said. You gotta go to the 'source'. If God doesn't exist for you.....our conversations are virtuously pointless.

BUT, could it be that God just puts too many limits on us both bodily & psychologically and no one wants that.

If you have a few minutes a good book to read would be "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" by Robert Bork. On pg 294 of his book he's talking about Freud, Marx & Darwin.

Bork also goes on to talk about Michael Behe, microbiologist, "who has shown that Darwinism cannot explain life as we know it.......Behe points out that for evolution to be the explanation of features such as the coagulation of blood and the human eye, too many unrelated mutations would have to occur simultaneously"........Michael J. Behe Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Bern80
If you mean by UNsure that I just don't know then it's simple. The existence of a god is something that is not definitively known. It's something I need proof of.

I am unsure because, as I said earlier "if" a god exists non of the current religions have gotten it right. They don't embody any of the values or characteristics that i think a so called divine being would really care about. And since all of these faulted religions are based off of God it makes you wonder if one exists or if it's simple indoctrination.

It cannot be known as the existence of such a being is completely beyond the capacity of humans to experience.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Joz
I guess you didn't really read my first letter to you. I tho't it was pretty good myself. But Avatar reaffirmed part of what I said. You gotta go to the 'source'. If God doesn't exist for you.....our conversations are virtuously pointless.

After reading your initial response again I have to ask why do you feel sorry for my cousin? I would think you would be happy for her as she is one of the few people who can actually hear and communicate w/ God? Again, I ask to ask yourself what you DON't believe, not what you do believe

It also is not matter of whether god exists for me or you, it's whether he exists period. It's quite a paradox to believe there is a god and that he doesn't exist for some poeple.

BUT, could it be that God just puts too many limits on us both bodily & psychologically and no one wants that.

If God exists it is looking more and more like there isn't much at all that he made humans incapable of.

If you have a few minutes a good book to read would be "Slouching Towards Gomorrah" by Robert Bork. On pg 294 of his book he's talking about Freud, Marx & Darwin.

Bork also goes on to talk about Michael Behe, microbiologist, "who has shown that Darwinism cannot explain life as we know it.......Behe points out that for evolution to be the explanation of features such as the coagulation of blood and the human eye, too many unrelated mutations would have to occur simultaneously"........Michael J. Behe Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.

I know that there are plenty of things out there that we can't explain. For instance it is believed that "smart" people use roughly 30% of their brains in their life, makes ya wonder what the rest is for. It simply means we currently don't have the capabililty to explain certain things. That doesn't mean i immediatley atribute what i can't to god.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's fairly simple. If we don't know if a god exists we certainly can't know if organized religion, (let alone which one), is right.

You could always go to the source. Study, learn about them all, and then pray for God to guide you. I mean what foriegn concept to some people to simply ask God about matters of spirituality and religion.

What would a divine being care about? Well, maybe we should look at what one wouldn't care about. Like whether or not I go to church on Sunday, or whether I spend an afternoon on my knees in a temple, or whether someone is gay or straight, none of it really matters.

I dont know. I would think God would care about whether or not we care about Him, whether we want to commune with him and matters of life and death.

The only ideas we have about what a God would want or not want came from people just like you and me and you don't seem to think I'm a credible source, so what does that tell you?

Because I dont accept the premise that the only Ideas we have about what God wants come from people. Do you think its just coincidence that religions on difference sides of the world have moral views on honesty, stealing, sexuality and murder? Do you think its a coincidence that almost every culture in the world has marriage between a man and a woman as one of the fundamental institutions of society?

In fact I begin with the premise that the only way man can know anything about God is through direct revelation. Oddly enough its not a very popular view.

 

[Avatar4321]

If God exists it is looking more and more like there isn't much at all that he made humans incapable of.

If you only knew the half of it..Haha.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
You could always go to the source. Study, learn about them all, and then pray for God to guide you. I mean what foriegn concept to some people to simply ask God about matters of spirituality and religion.

It has been my experience that God doesn't answer, maybe becasue there's no one there.

 

[Joz]

I'm going to tell you what most people who know me don't know. I'm not where I use to be. Since you don't know who I am, what you think will not affect me emotionally.

I went to church school after my parents started to church; I was about twelve. I had a christian marriage and when I had children they too went to church school. My husband & I worked for the church, and school, and tried to live as right as we could. I believe example works much better than hitting someone over the head with the Bible.

Remember those recent 'tragedies' I mentioned? Suddenly things begain to spiral. I lost my business after an auto accident that required me to have six surgeries. Three years later, my marriage of 21 years ended. Maybe we weren't 'christian' enough. Speculating does no good. Two years later my father, whom I knew only to have the Hong Kong flu back in the 70's, was diagnosed with cancer and died. And then 14 months later my youngest son , three weeks before he was fifteen, dropped dead. I breathed into him his last breath of air.

You think I havent' questioned God, His existence, His 'plan';...... I was always told that God had a thousand ways to answer a prayer or to work out problems and THIS was the best He could come up with?

I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove He doesn't. But I know He does.

I still have my oldest son and I've also been give Musicman. I KNOW he was a Godsend.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel like talking anymore. My heart hurts.
I bid you peace.

 

[CrazyLiberal]

Originally posted by Joz
I'm going to tell you what most people who know me don't know. I'm not where I use to be. Since you don't know who I am, what you think will not affect me emotionally.

Remember those recent 'tragedies' I mentioned? Suddenly things begain to spiral. I lost my business after an auto accident that required me to have six surgeries. Three years later, my marriage of 21 years ended. Maybe we weren't 'christian' enough. Speculating does no good. Two years later my father, whom I knew only to have the Hong Kong flu back in the 70's, was diagnosed with cancer and died. And then 14 months later my youngest son , three weeks before he was fifteen, dropped dead. I breathed into him his last breath of air.

You think I havent' questioned God, His existence, His 'plan';...... I was always told that God had a thousand ways to answer a prayer or to work out problems and THIS was the best He could come up with?

I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove He doesn't. But I know He does.

I still have my oldest son and I've also been give Musicman. I KNOW he was a Godsend.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel like talking anymore. My heart hurts.
I bid you peace.

Wow Joz you have been through a lot of hard times, I hope that the future brings brighter things for you and that maybe, your heart can begin to heal the deep wounds that have been inflicted on it.

 

[smellthecoffee]

If God does exist, then he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Plagues, famine, Hitler, Saddam & Osama, the Detroit pistons, Jim & Tammy faye Baker, BOY BANDS. Those of you who KNOW of his existance should help lobby GWB and a coalition of the willing to launch an invasion and bring him to justice for crimes against humanity.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
If God does exist, then he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Plagues, famine, Hitler, Saddam & Osama, the Detroit pistons, Jim & Tammy faye Baker, BOY BANDS. Those of you who KNOW of his existance should help lobby GWB and a coalition of the willing to launch an invasion and bring him to justice for crimes against humanity.

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.


Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.


When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.


He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.


He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.


This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:


"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:


"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
If God does exist, then he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Plagues, famine, Hitler, Saddam & Osama, the Detroit pistons, Jim & Tammy faye Baker, BOY BANDS. Those of you who KNOW of his existance should help lobby GWB and a coalition of the willing to launch an invasion and bring him to justice for crimes against humanity.

You left out Jimmy Swaggart, Ernest Angley, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Oral Roberts.

If God does exist, their existence shows that (S)He has a sick sense of humor.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
If God does exist, then he/she has a lot of explaining to do. Plagues, famine, Hitler, Saddam & Osama, the Detroit pistons, Jim & Tammy faye Baker, BOY BANDS. Those of you who KNOW of his existance should help lobby GWB and a coalition of the willing to launch an invasion and bring him to justice for crimes against humanity.

God gave us Free Will.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by CrazyLiberal
Wow Joz you have been through a lot of hard times, I hope that the future brings brighter things for you and that maybe, your heart can begin to heal the deep wounds that have been inflicted on it.

Much thanks for you're kind response.