Who was first Republican President; first Democrat president?

[konradv]

As long as you now agree that Jefferson founded the Republican Party in 1794 to opposed the Federalists (Washington, Hamilton, Adams) who he was sure opposed freedom and liberty from government just as modern liberals do.

I doubt many would agree with that. It's just about all revisionist history!!!

Brutus: so then please tell us exactly where the mistake is. Thanks. I'm sure though you don't know or you would have been all too happy to point it out without being asked.

Well, for one, no one agrees that Jefferson founded the Republican party. For another, no one believes Washington, Hamilton and Adams were against freedom. For a third, you mention freedon from government, but are strangely silent about freedom from YOU!!!

 

[Brutus]

Kinradv: Well, for one, no one agrees that Jefferson founded the Republican party.

Brutus: Jefferson apparently agrees that he did based on the name he used for his Party in every letter, speech, newspaper, article, and Congressional Report that I have ever read. Moreover so do the historians of the period:

"Although people were still deeply ambivalent about political parties, although one party did not necessarily recognize the legitimacy of the other, and although men on both sides were nostalgic- at one time or another- for the imaginary golden age of political harmony, few people could be found in the early 1790's who believed the parties did not exist. The parties had names: Federalist and Republican."-Susan Dunn,Jefferson's Second Revolution.


Konradv: For another, no one believes Washington, Hamilton and Adams were against freedom.

Brutus: then why on earth did Jefferson leave Washington's cabinet to form the Republican Party to destroy the Federalist Party of Washington Hamilton and Adams??? Why did Jefferson call their destruction, and the Republican victory, the Second American Revolution? You're going by grade school history and liberal encyclopedias. Sorry!

Konradv: For a third, you mention freedon from government, but are strangely silent about freedom from YOU!!!

Brutus: personal attack to change subject from your obvious defeat

 

[Brutus]

Sheldon: and in what ways this makes Washington unique in the context of the time period.

Brutus: Washington and the Federalists were uniquely un American to the Republicans. In fact, when Jefferson defeated them they were never heard from again. Freedom or liberty from government became the American tradition. Jefferson called it the second American Revolution because it established that the first revolution had been about freedom from all government, not just the government of England. Welcome to your first post middle school lesson in American History!


Sheldon: Way to not even come close to addressing the question.


Brutus: you are slow!! Jefferson left the cabinet of Washington because he thought they were monarchists. He formed the Republican party to destroy them just for that reason and no other!! Jefferson thought Washington had fought the revolution to get freedom from England so he could establish a monarchy here. Adams rode around in a coach made by King George's coach maker. At the most famous dinner party in American History Hamilton said the government of England was the finest in human history. Adams was called a royalist and monarchist in the election of 1800!!! Again, it is my honor to give your very lesson in American History, beyond HS or liberal encyclopedias.

Sheldon: I'm not interested in your semantical games about Jefferson's party name. He was the father of anti-federalist thought, which is the roots of the states' rights platform that today's GOP preaches.

Brutus: actually todays Republicans rarely worry about, think about or say much about state's rights. They want a reduced Federal Government through a Balanced Budget Amendment and tax/spending cuts to expand individual rights, not state's rights. Sorry!


Sheldon: Whether they practice it or not is another issue. But when people refer to Republicans today, they are referring to the party that was officially formed in the Civil War era.

Brutus: true enough but when intelligent people refer to the Republican Party they also refer to the first Republican Party of Jefferson because it shares the name and exact ideology of the modern Republican Party. Democrats of course hate that because it makes clear that they have no connection, in name or philosophy, to the founding and so would be more at home in Cuba than America where they would not have to subvert the goverment in order to get a philosophy they liked.


Shelson: That's what you're getting mixed up.

Brutus: I assume you understand now?

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Sheldon: and in what ways this makes Washington unique in the context of the time period.

Brutus: Washington and the Federalists were uniquely un American to the Republicans. In fact, when Jefferson defeated them they were never heard from again. Freedom or liberty from government became the American tradition. Jefferson called it the second American Revolution because it established that the first revolution had been about freedom from all government, not just the government of England. Welcome to your first post middle school lesson in American History!


Sheldon: Way to not even come close to addressing the question.


Brutus: you are slow!! Jefferson left the cabinet of Washington because he thought they were monarchists. He formed the Republican party to destroy them just for that reason and no other!! Jefferson thought Washington had fought the revolution to get freedom from England so he could establish a monarchy here. Adams rode around in a coach made by King George's coach maker. At the most famous dinner party in American History Hamilton said the government of England was the finest in human history. Adams was called a royalist and monarchist in the election of 1800!!! Again, it is my honor to give your very lesson in American History, beyond HS or liberal encyclopedias.

Sheldon: I'm not interested in your semantical games about Jefferson's party name. He was the father of anti-federalist thought, which is the roots of the states' rights platform that today's GOP preaches.

Brutus: actually todays Republicans rarely worry about, think about or say much about state's rights. They want a reduced Federal Government through a Balanced Budget Amendment and tax/spending cuts to expand individual rights, not state's rights. Sorry!


Sheldon: Whether they practice it or not is another issue. But when people refer to Republicans today, they are referring to the party that was officially formed in the Civil War era.

Brutus: true enough but when intelligent people refer to the Republican Party they also refer to the first Republican Party of Jefferson because it shares the name and exact ideology of the modern Republican Party. Democrats of course hate that because it makes clear that they have no connection, in name or philosophy, to the founding and so would be more at home in Cuba than America where they would not have to subvert the goverment in order to get a philosophy they liked.


Shelson: That's what you're getting mixed up.

Brutus: I assume you understand now?

If Jefferson's Republican party was formed to, and I quote from your exact words:

"Republican party to destroy them just for that reason and no other!!" (referring to the federalists/Washington/Hamilton, etc).

But then you say "shares the name and exact ideology of the modern Republican Party.".

So my question is simple:

Are you suggesting that the modern Republican's only reason is to defeat Washington, due to fear of a monarchy?

 

[Brutus]

Jamesin fla: Are you suggesting that the modern Republican's only reason is to defeat Washington, due to fear of a monarchy?

Brutus: to defeat the statist ideology, one version of which was represented by Washington and the Federalists.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Jamesin fla: Are you suggesting that the modern Republican's only reason is to defeat Washington, due to fear of a monarchy?

Brutus: to defeat the statist ideology, one version of which was represented by Washington and the Federalists.

You stated in a previous post in this thread is that the modern republican party wants to reduce the federal government, and expand individual liberty.

But off the top of my head your statement has 2 immediate flaws:

1. Your problem is that James Madison was a co-founder (Jefferson didn't form the party on his own), yet he was a main writer of the constitution, and pushed heavily for the drafting of the constitution. The constitution by its existence set up the federal government that we have today. Without Madison, we might not even have the federal government.

2. Their party back then had a very different view on individual liberty. Yet Madison himself was the one who proposed for black people being 3/5's of a person (legally). This is not to mention they thought it was ok to own slaves, women shouldn't be able to vote, if you weren't a white land owning male-you were a second class citizen (legally). This is NOT the views of the modern Republican party when it comes to individual liberties.

 

[Brutus]

Jamesin fla: Are you suggesting that the modern Republican's only reason is to defeat Washington, due to fear of a monarchy?

Brutus: to defeat the statist ideology, one version of which was represented by Washington and the Federalists.

James: You stated in a previous post in this thread is that the modern republican party wants to reduce the federal government, and expand individual liberty.

But off the top of my head your statement has 2 immediate flaws:

1. Your problem is that James Madison was a co-founder (Jefferson didn't form the party on his own), yet he was a main writer of the constitution, and pushed heavily for the drafting of the constitution. The constitution by its existence set up the federal government that we have today. Without Madison, we might not even have the federal government.

Brutus: all agree ;so what???????????????????/


James: 2. Their party back then had a very different view on individual liberty. Yet Madison himself was the one who proposed for black people being 3/5's of a person (legally). This is not to mention they thought it was ok to own slaves, women shouldn't be able to vote, if you weren't a white land owning male-you were a second class citizen (legally). This is NOT the views of the modern Republican party when it comes to individual liberties.


Brutus:ah but Jefferson and the others created and lived on the cusp of history. For them is was a huge revolution to believe that they themselves could be free, let alone real slaves. But even so, Jefferson's original draft of the Constitution was more about slavery than taxes. He and the others knowingly fired the shot heard around the world even when they had no idea if it would hit its target or if their personal consequences would be deadly. To say that our Founders were born slave holders is true, but it is also true that they did more to set in motion freedom for slaves than all human beings or any other group in human history. Certainly they did more than any of us would have had the intelligence and courage to do given the times they in which they lived and the consequences they faced; so lets all thank God for these incredible heroes who, most recently, freed 1.5 billion from communism with their undying influence.

Those among us who imagine they are morally superior to the Founders are fools too stupid to know they inheritied their wisdom without so much as a drop of blood, a calorie of effort, the inkling of a thought, or an ounce of morality.