Who The Enemy Is

Annie

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Nov 22, 2003
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http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061705.html

June 17, 2005
The Sorry Bunch
Listen and learn from our enemies.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

In a single day last week, in various media — the liberal International Herald Tribune and the Washington Post — the following information appeared.

A Syrian smuggler of jihadists to Iraq, one Abu Ibrahim, was interviewed. He made the following revealing statements:

(1) that the goal of the jihadists is the restoration of the ancient caliphate ("The Koran is a constitution, a law to govern the world")

(2) that September 11 was "a great day"

(3) that two weeks after the attack, a celebration was held in his rural Syrian community celebrating the mass murder, and thereafter continued twice-weekly

(4) that Syrian officials attended such festivities, funded by Saudi money with public slogans that read, "The People ...Will Now Defeat the Jews and Kill Them All"

(5) that despite denials, Syrian police aided the jihadists in their efforts to hound out Western influence: They were allowed to enforce their strict vision of sharia, or Islamic law, entering houses in the middle of the night to confront people accused of bad behavior. Abu Ibrahim said their authority rivaled that of the Amn Dawla, or state security. "Everyone knew us," he said. "We all had big beards. We became thugs."

(6) that the Syrian government does not hesitate to work with Islamists ("beards and epaulets were in one trench together")

(7) that collateral damage was not always so collateral: "Once the Americans bombed a bus crossing to Syria. We made a big fuss and said it was full of merchants," Abu Ibrahim said. "But actually, they were fighters."

(8) That once Syria felt U.S. pressure, there was some temporary cosmetic change of heart: "The security agents said the smuggling of fighters had to stop. The jihadists' passports were taken. Some were jailed for a few days. Abu Ibrahim's jailers shaved his beard."

(9) that supporters in Saudi Arabia always played a key role: "Our brothers in Iraq are asking for Saudis. The Saudis go with enough money to support themselves and their Iraqi brothers. A week ago, we sent a Saudi to the jihad. He went with 100,000 Saudi riyals. There was celebration amongst his brothers there!"

Note how in this one Washington Post story how almost every one of our Western myths promulgated by the antiwar Left is shattered by a candid jihadist himself. First, there was always radical Islamic anti-American hatred that preceded Iraq. Indeed, celebrations were spontaneous immediately after September 11 on the mere news of slaughtered Americans.

We have been told that jihadists and secular Baathists have little in common, and that only our war brought them together. But like the Japanese and Nazis in World War II, autocrat and jihadist have shared interests in hating liberal democracies — and well before our response they were jointly fanning efforts against the United States.

Note too the passive-aggressive nature of Syria that gives into rather than resists American pressures. When the U.S. threatens, it backsteps; when we relent, it goes back on the offensive.


Americans worry that captured terrorists have proper Korans and are allowed traditional grooming. Arab jailors immediately shave the traditional beards of those they arrest.

Saudi Arabia claims to be our ally, but its Wahhabi roots are so deep and its oil revenues so vast that much of its multilayered ruling class could not cease its support for jihad even if it wished. We forget that their 'war against terror' is a war against Muslim terrorists who attack Muslims — not necessarily against Muslim terrorists ("militants") who attack Westerners.

Some claim that anti-Semitism is an exaggerated charge, yet the jihadists blame the Jews, not just Israel, instinctively.

Westerners also worry about collateral damage; the terrorist Ibrahim confesses that military operatives routinely count on falsely claiming civilian casualties.

For more of this sorry bunch, the same day I turned to the International Herald Tribune. Its headline ran: "For Saudis' promised liberalizations, a snail's pace." The story followed about the routine persecution of any who questioned government autocracy and Wahhabist Islam. We learned once more that there is no freedom of any kind in Saudi Arabia and that dissidents are routinely jailed for their mere protests (sentences ranging from six to nine years).

More interestingly, Arab reformers, few though they are, most certainly don't blame the West for the misery of the Middle East. Instead, they confess that the Arab world itself is parasitic: "Western governments, reformers say, should question why curriculums are so weak and why Arab societies contribute nothing to the world's scientific or technological advancements."

In the words of one persecuted novelist Turki Al-Hamad, "The problem is not from the outside, the problem is from ourselves; if we don't change ourselves, nothing will change."

In the United States, we are told that we have created terrorists. Saudi liberals would beg to differ. So the theologian Al-Maleky confesses, "If Wahhabism doesn't revise itself, it will produce more terrorism."

This is all so strange.

Free-thinking Arabs refute all the premises of Western Leftists who claim that colonialism, racism, and exploitation have created terrorists, hold back Arab development, and are the backdrops to this war.

Indeed, it is far worse than that: Our own fundamentalist Left is in lockstep with Wahhabist reductionism — in its similar instinctive distrust of Western culture. Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists.
The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; the more liberal the Arab, the more likely he is to agree with conservative Westerners about the real source of Middle Eastern pathology.

The constant? A global distrust of Western-style liberalism and preference for deductive absolutism. So burn down a mosque in Zimbabwe, murder innocent Palestinians in Bethlehem in 2002, arrest Christians in Saudi Arabia, or slaughter Africans in Dafur, and both the Western Left and the Middle East's hard Right won't say a word. No such violence resonates with America's diverse critics as much as a false story of a flushed Koran — precisely because the gripe is not about the lives of real people, but the psychological hurts, angst, and warped ideology of those who in their various ways don't like the United States.

I will pass over quickly the day's other sorry stories, but they were equally revealing. From Karachi, we learn that Pakistani Shiite Muslims burned down a Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise. You see, a Sunni suicide bomber had just blown up 19 Pakistani Shia. In reaction to that attack, the Shiite mob went out and killed six employees of a business owned and operated by a Pakistani Muslim. Follow the logic of the Middle East: When you are angry at your own for their murdering, and are too weak or terrified to do anything about it, go out and destroy anything remotely American-affiliated.

I read the most of these news accounts last week while sitting in a Starbucks (Dunkin' Donuts next door) on the eastern side of the Brandenburg Gate in the former Communist sector of Berlin — watching a parade of protestors damn the militarism of the United States (a.k.a. "Top Gun") while a nearby TV blared accounts of a recent German mystery on state-run television, whose subtext was that the United States intelligence planned September 11 and blamed it on the poor jihadists.

So there we have a snapshot of 60 years of American efforts to rid Germany of Hitler, pour in Marshall Plan money, keep 300 Soviet divisions out of Germany, and convince skeptical British, French, and Russians to support reunification: In response, welcome in American popular culture as you damn the United States in the conveniently abstract.

A war that cannot be won entirely on the battlefield most certainly can be lost entirely off it — especially when an ailing Western liberal society is harder on its own democratic culture than it is on fascist Islamic fundamentalism.

So unhinged have we become that if an American policymaker calls for democracy and reform in the Middle East, then he is likely to echo the aspirations of jailed and persecuted Arab reformers. But if he says Islamic fascism is either none of our business or that we lack the wisdom or morality to pass judgment on the pathologies of a traditional tribal society, then the jihadist and the police state — and our own Western Left — approve.

The problem the administration faces is not entirely a military one: Our armed forces continue to perform heroically and selflessly under nearly impossible conditions of global scrutiny and hypercriticism. There has not been an attack on the U.S. since 9/11 — despite carnage in Madrid and over 1,000 slaughtered in Russia by various Islamic terrorists during the same period.

Rather, the American public is tiring of the Middle East, its hypocrisy and whiny logic — and to such a degree that it sometimes unfortunately doesn't make distinctions for the Iraqi democratic government or other Arab reformers, but rather is slowly coming to believe the entire region is ungracious, hopeless, and not worth another American soldier or dollar.

This is a dangerous trend.
Despite murderous Syrian terrorists, dictatorial Saudis, crazy Pakistanis, and triangulating European allies, and after so many tragic setbacks, we are close to creating lasting democratic states in Afghanistan and Iraq — states that are influencing the entire region and ending the old calculus of Middle Eastern terror. We are winning even as we are told we are losing. But the key is that the American people need to be told — honestly and daily — how and why those successes came about and must continue before it sours on the entire sorry bunch.
 
Kathianne said:

YES! all the liberals are the ENEMY! :firing:

too bad we pay the bills in the country and we didn't vote for the chimp.
yes, that's right, most of the federal tax revenue is generated by the blue states. and to further agree with your point of there being 2 sides of america now, i would vote to SECEDE from this union at the drop of a hat. we'll take all the west coast states and anyone else who wants to join.

the money and lives have been pissed away, and for what?!

answer me that with some valid point, and i may never have to post here again.

now that the memo is finally being carried by our domestic press (a mere MONTH AND A HALF) after it broke in the UK, i pray that justice will be server here at home. it is the last hope to regain power for the common man in this country :rock:

and get this country back to what it once was. by the people, for the people. :usa:

sad thing is, the dem party is just and filthy and corrupt as this administration. watching hillary suck up to isreal is ugly enough to curdle water.
 
spillmind said:
YES! all the liberals are the ENEMY! :firing:

too bad we pay the bills in the country and we didn't vote for the chimp.
yes, that's right, most of the federal tax revenue is generated by the blue states. and to further agree with your point of there being 2 sides of america now, i would vote to SECEDE from this union at the drop of a hat. we'll take all the west coast states and anyone else who wants to join.

the money and lives have been pissed away, and for what?!

answer me that with some valid point, and i may never have to post here again.

now that the memo is finally being carried by our domestic press (a mere MONTH AND A HALF) after it broke in the UK, i pray that justice will be server here at home. it is the last hope to regain power for the common man in this country :rock:

and get this country back to what it once was. by the people, for the people. :usa:

sad thing is, the dem party is just and filthy and corrupt as this administration. watching hillary suck up to isreal is ugly enough to curdle water.


Ok, you are saying one last post from you, cool. Now what exactly are you asking for in this rant? We'd like to help you out here.
 
spillmind said:
YES! all the liberals are the ENEMY! :firing:

too bad we pay the bills in the country and we didn't vote for the chimp.
yes, that's right, most of the federal tax revenue is generated by the blue states. and to further agree with your point of there being 2 sides of america now, i would vote to SECEDE from this union at the drop of a hat. we'll take all the west coast states and anyone else who wants to join.

You really don't think liberals pay all the bills of this country do you? thats like such a joke. Unless of course you are just self hating and want to make yourself pay more taxes all the time since you are obviously "the rich."

now that the memo is finally being carried by our domestic press (a mere MONTH AND A HALF) after it broke in the UK, i pray that justice will be server here at home. it is the last hope to regain power for the common man in this country :rock:

Dude, make up your mind. you are either the rich paying all the bills or you are the common man. You arent both.

The common man does have power. You see in the United states the majority wins elections. the majority is the common man. and the Majority is Republican.


and get this country back to what it once was. by the people, for the people. :usa:

If you want a country for the people and by the people, why on earth do you want something contrary to what the people voted for? Do you not understand you don't represent a majority? The people have decided. they left you behind/

sad thing is, the dem party is just and filthy and corrupt as this administration. watching hillary suck up to isreal is ugly enough to curdle water.

So basically you are just an anti semite? big surprise. Yeah actually being nice to a jew is just filthy and corrupt. they are nothing but a bunch of nazis. people like you disgust me.
 
sorry to say, best YES the blue states account for most of the federal tax revenue. need a hanky?

and yes i am both.

majority? ROTFFLMFAO enough of that nonsense.

don't look at the polls now, but i am sure you are busy trying to patch the titanic.

and yes, the jews run this country. it's a simple matter of being honest about it.

i wouldn't mind so much if we weren't headed towards bankruptcy and no end to the war in sight.

you dare compare me to a nazi when you (i assume) still support the gitmo prison?

i feel sorry for you man. you loyalty is impressive, however, i think it's clouding your objective vision.
 
spillmind said:
sorry to say, best YES the blue states account for most of the federal tax revenue. need a hanky?

and yes i am both.

majority? ROTFFLMFAO enough of that nonsense.

don't look at the polls now, but i am sure you are busy trying to patch the titanic.

and yes, the jews run this country. it's a simple matter of being honest about it.

i wouldn't mind so much if we weren't headed towards bankruptcy and no end to the war in sight.

you dare compare me to a nazi when you (i assume) still support the gitmo prison?

i feel sorry for you man. you loyalty is impressive, however, i think it's clouding your objective vision.

What about Gitmo compares to the Nazis? ZERO people have died at Gitmo. Did Hitler have the SS make sure to choose only Kosher food for the menus? Did the SS make sure to wear gloves when touching the torah? Did the Jewish prisoners get fresh clothes and exercise time? The "worst" thing that's happened at Gitmo is some guy was forced to wet himself. Are you equating that with being thrown in a gas chamber, or forced to dig your own grave before being shot and thrown into it? Grow up, boy.
 
theim said:
What about Gitmo compares to the Nazis? ZERO people have died at Gitmo. Did Hitler have the SS make sure to choose only Kosher food for the menus? Did the SS make sure to wear gloves when touching the torah? Did the Jewish prisoners get fresh clothes and exercise time? The "worst" thing that's happened at Gitmo is some guy was forced to wet himself. Are you equating that with being thrown in a gas chamber, or forced to dig your own grave before being shot and thrown into it? Grow up, boy.

as a matter of fact, i equate it to the incarceration of the japanese in WWII. a horrible, embarassing egg on the face matter in the history of the united states.


as for a statement about you, if you think:
'The "worst" thing that's happened at Gitmo is some guy was forced to wet himself.', you are smoking glass.
 
spillmind said:
sorry to say, best YES the blue states account for most of the federal tax revenue. need a hanky?

Are you really this stupid? more money comes from the red counties that the blue counties (this should be obvious to you since there are about 400 times more red counties than blue ones)

Regardless of that, it doesn't really matter because its the blue counties that spend more most of the money anyway.


and yes i am both.

Dude, the rich have never been the common man. you cant be both. are you just freakin stupid?

majority? ROTFFLMFAO enough of that nonsense.

Cant handle reality? Who has most of the House? the Senate? The Presidency? The majority of governorships? That would be Republicans. So which is the majority, the ones who receive the most votes. or the ones who dont?

don't look at the polls now, but i am sure you are busy trying to patch the titanic.

Who cares about the polls? There is nothing to patch up. You lost. we won. economy is good. war on terror is going good. Howard Dean is sabatoging any chance of future democrat victories. life is good for us conservatives.

and yes, the jews run this country. it's a simple matter of being honest about it.

You know, you would think after 2000 years people would stop the blame it on the Jews card. but i guess nothing really changes.

i wouldn't mind so much if we weren't headed towards bankruptcy and no end to the war in sight.

We aren't heading for bankruptcy anytime soon. I cant imagine what it must be like in this fantasy world you are living in. And there is never an end in sight in the fight against evil. Thats part of life. But if you dont fight you wont be around long.

you dare compare me to a nazi when you (i assume) still support the gitmo prison?

Dude, you have far more in common with the nazis than anyone at gitmo. You're both socialist. you both hate jews and blame them for the problems in the world. You arer probably both green environmentalist wackos. You both have a problem when the people vote against ya. and you are both in the minority.

i feel sorry for you man. you loyalty is impressive, however, i think it's clouding your objective vision.

loyalty to what? to reality? Im just stating the facts. You are the guy who hates jews yet cant see how you are like the nazis while you try to associate american soldiers with those sick freaks. You need to come back to a little place i call earth.
 
spillmind said:
sorry to say, best YES the blue states account for most of the federal tax revenue. need a hanky?

and yes i am both.

majority? ROTFFLMFAO enough of that nonsense.

don't look at the polls now, but i am sure you are busy trying to patch the titanic.

and yes, the jews run this country. it's a simple matter of being honest about it.

i wouldn't mind so much if we weren't headed towards bankruptcy and no end to the war in sight.

you dare compare me to a nazi when you (i assume) still support the gitmo prison?

i feel sorry for you man. you loyalty is impressive, however, i think it's clouding your objective vision.

Spilly, your tone and content of your posts isn't particularly attractive to the majority of this board, who continue to keep your reputation in the red. I suggest you read the posts of 'IControlThePast', to get a better idea of someone with a left perspective who tends to debate based on the facts rather than blather about opinions.
 
i honestly could care less about what was 'attractive'

avatar, i could give a crap about which counties what, :blah2:
blue states are blue states, and we put more money into federal tax system than all the other red state freeloaders. my state has been a donor state for 22 years running.

as far as the israeli interest is concerned. i've got nothing against any people. people are people and i don't really care where you come from. that is not how i base my opinion of each and every individual. you want to sit there and deny there is a heavy jewish influence in our government, go right ahead. you like that israel receives more aid than more than half the states, that's your opinion. if it were the latino front or whatever heavily lobbied in our government and mismanaging it, you can be damn sure i'd be slamming them.

and yes, rupert murdoch may have brainwashed you if you

... believe $300 billion of U.S. tax money, allocated for the war and reconstruction in Iraq is actually going to Iraq .

... are unaware Iraq had 650 million barrels of oil in reserve just before the war in Iraq .

... are unaware at least $8.8 billion is known to be missing in Iraqi oil revenue from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

... are unaware 198 million in Iraqi dollars is missing from the Iraq treasury from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

... are unaware that war is exceptionally profitable for a small number of investors.

... believe Halliburton's no-bid contracts have nothing to do with former CEO, now Vice President Dick Cheney.

... are unaware that the Iraq war is the biggest case of war profiteering in human history.


now what part of my post isn't factual, comrade?
 
spillmind said:
i honestly could care less about what was 'attractive'

avatar, i could give a crap about which counties what, :blah2:
blue states are blue states, and we put more money into federal tax system than all the other red state freeloaders. my state has been a donor state for 22 years running.

Nobody in your state is a 'donor' to Federal Taxation. A reticent tax payer, maybe, but its certainly no donation from my perspectivie.

as far as the israeli interest is concerned. i've got nothing against any people. people are people and i don't really care where you come from. that is not how i base my opinion of each and every individual.

Now your sounding reasonable.

you want to sit there and deny there is a heavy jewish influence in our government, go right ahead. you like that israel receives more aid than more than half the states, that's your opinion. if it were the latino front or whatever heavily lobbied in our government and mismanaging it, you can be damn sure i'd be slamming them.

Oops, you lost us. A link would help here...

and yes, rupert murdoch may have brainwashed you if you

Now you base all your facts on what is stated as not supported by Fox News, and instead supported by your unlinked assertations, as listed below:

... believe $300 billion of U.S. tax money, allocated for the war and reconstruction in Iraq is actually going to Iraq .

Then where, Bush's 200 Billion dollar mansion? You're insinuating that any money spent on the security for Iraqs future is not in Iraqs name, right? Perhaps you'd like to argue that our own taxpayers sacrifice for the well being of the Middle East is misused. But I don't really know what your going on about, I always have to guess with you people with such boneheaded, angry, and US government hating accusations.

... are unaware Iraq had 650 million barrels of oil in reserve just before the war in Iraq .

Which war, the one where Saddam burned 1 BILLION barrels of oil once it was clear the Americans would free Kuwait?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/03/sproject.irq.kuwait.oil.fires/

Kuwait still recovering from Gulf War fires
From Ryan Chilcote
CNN

Friday, January 3, 2003 Posted: 6:33 PM EST (2333 GMT)

More than 1 billion barrels of oil were burned in fires set by Iraqi forces in their retreat from Kuwait in 1991.

Concern is mounting that Saddam may torch his own oil fields in the event of war as he did to Kuwait fields in the 1991 Gulf War. CNN's Ryan Chilcote reports (January 2)

KUWAIT CITY, Kuwait (CNN) -- In the waning days of the Persian Gulf War, as Iraqi forces retreated to Baghdad, Saddam Hussein sent a team of engineers into the Kuwaiti oil fields and blew up hundreds of wells.

Over the next seven months, more than 1 billion barrels of oil went up in flames, and Kuwait and much of the Persian Gulf was engulfed in a poisonous smoke, creating a large-scale environmental disaster.

See, the above is a fact, with a link. You should try it sometime.


... are unaware at least $8.8 billion is known to be missing in Iraqi oil revenue from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

At best a link to whatreallyhappened.com would actually claim such a ridiculous fact.

... are unaware 198 million in Iraqi dollars is missing from the Iraq treasury from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

Oooh. 200 Million dollars! That's like doctor Evil dealing in Millions while the continuous Billions in direct US aid continue to pour into improving the Iraqi future.

... are unaware that war is exceptionally profitable for a small number of investors.

Well before the war it was about how cheap the oil would be for these 'profiteers', which the left had to drop right after it became clear that oil prices were rising due to global demand. Oops.

... believe Halliburton's no-bid contracts have nothing to do with former CEO, now Vice President Dick Cheney.

Oh sure, all those stock options. Which Cheney has pledged to give to charity.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/politics/main575356.shtml

Democrats pointed out that Cheney receives deferred compensation from Halliburton under an arrangement he made in 1998, and also retains stock options. He has pledged to give after-tax proceeds of the stock options to charity.

AND

According to Cheney's 2001 financial disclosure report, the vice president's Halliburton benefits include three batches of stock options comprising 433,333 shares. He also has a 401(k) retirement account valued at between $1,001 and $15,000 dollars.

His deferred compensation account was valued at between $500,000 and $1 million, and generated income of $50,000 to $100,000.

In 2002, Cheney's total assets were valued at between $19.1 million and $86.4 million.

Earlier this month, a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit that accused Halliburton and Cheney of misleading investors by changing the way the company counted revenue from construction projects.

So the tax records are public, as well as the statement from Cheney. Would a Vice President who is worth tens of millions risk his entire political career over a paltry 100K/year income? I think not.

See, this is called research, balanced with reason. You should try it sometime.

... are unaware that the Iraq war is the biggest case of war profiteering in human history.

That statement is so damn lazy it's not worth my time.

now what part of my post isn't factual, comrade?

Everything but the avatar. I can take you apart like a shellfish.
 
Comrade said:
Nobody in your state is a 'donor' to Federal Taxation. A reticent tax payer, maybe, but its certainly no donation from my perspectivie.



Now your sounding reasonable.



Oops, you lost us. A link would help here...



Now you base all your facts on what is stated as not supported by Fox News, and instead supported by your unlinked assertations, as listed below:



Then where, Bush's 200 Billion dollar mansion? You're insinuating that any money spent on the security for Iraqs future is not in Iraqs name, right? Perhaps you'd like to argue that our own taxpayers sacrifice for the well being of the Middle East is misused. But I don't really know what your going on about, I always have to guess with you people with such boneheaded, angry, and US government hating accusations.



Which war, the one where Saddam burned 1 BILLION barrels of oil once it was clear the Americans would free Kuwait?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/03/sproject.irq.kuwait.oil.fires/



See, the above is a fact, with a link. You should try it sometime.




At best a link to whatreallyhappened.com would actually claim such a ridiculous fact.



Oooh. 200 Million dollars! That's like doctor Evil dealing in Millions while the continuous Billions in direct US aid continue to pour into improving the Iraqi future.



Well before the war it was about how cheap the oil would be for these 'profiteers', which the left had to drop right after it became clear that oil prices were rising due to global demand. Oops.



Oh sure, all those stock options. Which Cheney has pledged to give to charity.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/politics/main575356.shtml



AND



So the tax records are public, as well as the statement from Cheney. Would a Vice President who is worth tens of millions risk his entire political career over a paltry 100K/year income? I think not.

See, this is called research, balanced with reason. You should try it sometime.



That statement is so damn lazy it's not worth my time.



Everything but the avatar. I can take you apart like a shellfish.


i swear some idiots just plain need some sense smacked into them.
i'm not going to post a bunch of links you will claim are unsubstantiated. it's a waste of my time.

if you can't connect the dots between the bush administration pushing for war for profiteering purposes, you are on crack. there is far too much evidence that the intelligence was shaped around the policy, and not the other way around.

you've acknowledged that cheney had a stake in that company, yet you call my statement 'everything but'. you contradict yourself, and your arrogance isn't impressive.

i am not going to serve you up fifteen links why this war was a lie and bush has mismanaged this country, and how there is no endgame in iraq, because you have to some kind of partisan hack or just goddamned stupid to not see the writing that is on the wall.

you can't even f'in use your correctly and you come at me with some crap about you don't believe our tax dollars are a donation. talk about losing people. we are a donor state, we carry more debt then all the red states, and WE are financing the war on terror.

like i said, i'd be happy to secede and watch you bible thumpers PRAY for your money. you wouldn't last a year.

take a look at the cost of the first gulf war compared to this one, if you are still in need of a clue. i can't believe i am having this conversation.
 
oh yeah, everyone still afraid to bite on this one:

the money and lives have been pissed away, and for what?!

and i won't hold my breath. if you can manage a response, do try and keep a straight face.
 
spillmind said:
i swear some idiots just plain need some sense smacked into them.
i'm not going to post a bunch of links you will claim are unsubstantiated. it's a waste of my time.

if you can't connect the dots between the bush administration pushing for war for profiteering purposes, you are on crack. there is far too much evidence that the intelligence was shaped around the policy, and not the other way around.

you've acknowledged that cheney had a stake in that company, yet you call my statement 'everything but'. you contradict yourself, and your arrogance isn't impressive.

i am not going to serve you up fifteen links why this war was a lie and bush has mismanaged this country, and how there is no endgame in iraq, because you have to some kind of partisan hack or just goddamned stupid to not see the writing that is on the wall.

you can't even f'in use your correctly and you come at me with some crap about you don't believe our tax dollars are a donation. talk about losing people. we are a donor state, we carry more debt then all the red states, and WE are financing the war on terror.

like i said, i'd be happy to secede and watch you bible thumpers PRAY for your money. you wouldn't last a year.

take a look at the cost of the first gulf war compared to this one, if you are still in need of a clue. i can't believe i am having this conversation.


I can't believe you refuse to ride with unsubtantiated facts when I've addressed you specifically on them. Instead you chose some kind of rant unworthy of your prior work on this board.
 
spillmind said:
i swear some idiots just plain need some sense smacked into them.

I agree. but i dont think i have a board big enough to smack sense into you

i'm not going to post a bunch of links you will claim are unsubstantiated. it's a waste of my time.

Course, heaven forbid you actually try to substantiate what you say. but then youve already admitted they are ubsubstantiated.

if you can't connect the dots between the bush administration pushing for war for profiteering purposes, you are on crack. there is far too much evidence that the intelligence was shaped around the policy, and not the other way around.

Of course, if you dont agree with you and your out rageous accusations which you have no evidence for, you are on drugs. Why is it you left wing nuts seem to forget WE WERE ATTACKED I can't understand why you guys cant seem to remember or understand this. Terrorists attacked us so we have to take out any regime that supports terror and create conditions in the middle east. Why is it the logic of liberating iraq and presenting the former regime from supporting terrorists or worse creating wmds and giving them to the terrorists is beyond you? Of course not. its all about making money because we are all evil. It cant possibly because we are trying to change the world for the better and allow freedom to spread in a land that never had it before.

you've acknowledged that cheney had a stake in that company, yet you call my statement 'everything but'. you contradict yourself, and your arrogance isn't impressive.

You seem to not understand the world "Had" it's a word in the past tense. It means while someone previously owned something. that they no longer do. Im not surprised you dont understand that. I mean you president didnt even understand what the word is meant.

i am not going to serve you up fifteen links why this war was a lie and bush has mismanaged this country, and how there is no endgame in iraq, because you have to some kind of partisan hack or just goddamned stupid to not see the writing that is on the wall.

You aren't going to because you have no support. You libs have been whining about Bush lying for the last 5 years. But you cant seem to produce one lie or any evidence of it.

The endgame in Iraq is simple. We are there to win. When Iraq has a successful representative government and can find and arrest/destroy terrorists, then our mission has succeeded. You dont want an endgame in Iraq. You want us to withdrawal. You want us to run home with our head between our legs disgraced. Of course we arent going to do that. we are there to win despite your ideas contrary.

you can't even f'in use your correctly and you come at me with some crap about you don't believe our tax dollars are a donation. talk about losing people. we are a donor state, we carry more debt then all the red states, and WE are financing the war on terror.

You can't even write correctly and newsflash, but taxes arent donation. You see a donation is a gift. Something voluntarily given to help someone out or to be nice to them. Taxes arent gift. People have no choice in whether to pay taxes. You can't live in this nation without paying taxes.

Also, if you were thinking at all youd realize that state budgets arent at all effected by the amount of federal dollars taken. State budgets come from state taxes not federal taxes. I don't know what state you are in, but im guess you are suffering from huge amounts of debt because of incompetant Democrat budgeting.

like i said, i'd be happy to secede and watch you bible thumpers PRAY for your money. you wouldn't last a year.

Dude, you are in a dream land. lets say you succeed at seceding. You face two major problems.

1)all the businesses will leave your state to return to United States where they are free rather than your liberal "utopia" where they will be opressed and screwed.

2)We will blow you to smitherenes.

So go ahead and secede. Im sure there are plenty of marines who would love to eliminate you from existance. its what they do best.

take a look at the cost of the first gulf war compared to this one, if you are still in need of a clue. i can't believe i am having this conversation.

Small price to pay for Freedom in the middle east.
 
spillmind said:
i honestly could care less about what was 'attractive'

avatar, i could give a crap about which counties what, :blah2:
blue states are blue states, and we put more money into federal tax system than all the other red state freeloaders. my state has been a donor state for 22 years running.

as far as the israeli interest is concerned. i've got nothing against any people. people are people and i don't really care where you come from. that is not how i base my opinion of each and every individual. you want to sit there and deny there is a heavy jewish influence in our government, go right ahead. you like that israel receives more aid than more than half the states, that's your opinion. if it were the latino front or whatever heavily lobbied in our government and mismanaging it, you can be damn sure i'd be slamming them.

and yes, rupert murdoch may have brainwashed you if you

... believe $300 billion of U.S. tax money, allocated for the war and reconstruction in Iraq is actually going to Iraq .

... are unaware Iraq had 650 million barrels of oil in reserve just before the war in Iraq .

... are unaware at least $8.8 billion is known to be missing in Iraqi oil revenue from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

... are unaware 198 million in Iraqi dollars is missing from the Iraq treasury from the period the U.S. was in control of Iraq .

... are unaware that war is exceptionally profitable for a small number of investors.

... believe Halliburton's no-bid contracts have nothing to do with former CEO, now Vice President Dick Cheney.

... are unaware that the Iraq war is the biggest case of war profiteering in human history.


now what part of my post isn't factual, comrade?

Time to wake up from your dream, sonny. Manure is NOT tax dollars. but I will give you the fact that blues states DO spread the most of it.
 
Avatar4321 said:
I agree. but i dont think i have a board big enough to smack sense into you



Course, heaven forbid you actually try to substantiate what you say. but then youve already admitted they are ubsubstantiated.



Of course, if you dont agree with you and your out rageous accusations which you have no evidence for, you are on drugs. Why is it you left wing nuts seem to forget WE WERE ATTACKED I can't understand why you guys cant seem to remember or understand this. Terrorists attacked us so we have to take out any regime that supports terror and create conditions in the middle east. Why is it the logic of liberating iraq and presenting the former regime from supporting terrorists or worse creating wmds and giving them to the terrorists is beyond you? Of course not. its all about making money because we are all evil. It cant possibly because we are trying to change the world for the better and allow freedom to spread in a land that never had it before.



You seem to not understand the world "Had" it's a word in the past tense. It means while someone previously owned something. that they no longer do. Im not surprised you dont understand that. I mean you president didnt even understand what the word is meant.



You aren't going to because you have no support. You libs have been whining about Bush lying for the last 5 years. But you cant seem to produce one lie or any evidence of it.

The endgame in Iraq is simple. We are there to win. When Iraq has a successful representative government and can find and arrest/destroy terrorists, then our mission has succeeded. You dont want an endgame in Iraq. You want us to withdrawal. You want us to run home with our head between our legs disgraced. Of course we arent going to do that. we are there to win despite your ideas contrary.



You can't even write correctly and newsflash, but taxes arent donation. You see a donation is a gift. Something voluntarily given to help someone out or to be nice to them. Taxes arent gift. People have no choice in whether to pay taxes. You can't live in this nation without paying taxes.

Also, if you were thinking at all youd realize that state budgets arent at all effected by the amount of federal dollars taken. State budgets come from state taxes not federal taxes. I don't know what state you are in, but im guess you are suffering from huge amounts of debt because of incompetant Democrat budgeting.



Dude, you are in a dream land. lets say you succeed at seceding. You face two major problems.

1)all the businesses will leave your state to return to United States where they are free rather than your liberal "utopia" where they will be opressed and screwed.

2)We will blow you to smitherenes.

So go ahead and secede. Im sure there are plenty of marines who would love to eliminate you from existance. its what they do best.



Small price to pay for Freedom in the middle east.

this post was so funny i couldn't help myself but to reply.

a) WHO attacked us?

b) cheney may not be the biggest, but the beneficiaries of this war have been the biggest case of war profiteering in history. i honestly don't see what the debate is here.

c) i am sick of producing lies from bush, only to have you people say they aren't lies. anyone who doesn't think politicians don't lie needs brain surgery. or simply doesn't have a clue. the new memo connects the dots so clearly that even a third grader can figure it out. how you people still cannot is no small marvel.

When Iraq has a successful representative government and can find and arrest/destroy terrorists, then our mission has succeeded.

this isn't happening, not anytime soon, and it's not because i don't want it. i am realistic in knowing it isn't going to happen. and given the present rate of 'progress' yes, we will be bankrupt before it will. apparently you've never ran a business or a project where you had to project cost and return for the future or you would see the logic of my statements. it's nothing dreamed up by the liberal left, it's common sense.

nowhere did i say taxes are a donation. and yes, the blue states STILL account for more revenue than all those freeloading red states. i'll repeat, you need a hanky?

as far as your threats to come in a kill us, since that's what the marines do best... you think morale is low now? send them against their own people. you have demonstrated how little foresight and logic you possess. this directly flies right in the face of your democracy and liberation bullshit rhetoric. it's amazing you can't see it even when it's laid out as plainly as i can here.

and as for the troll with stripes, i'm not talking about manure. i am talking about my hard earned money. and i am sick and tired of it being pissed away. for kathianne to call the bankrollers the enemy, and calling the war a mismanaged failure 'a dangerous trend' is off base, and the completely wrong logistical angle in looking at the state of the nation as we type.

hopefully this memo will make it clear to even the biggest idiot that bush had intended to go into iraq, not because he had WMD, like he was plugging in that speech i posted so many times, but because it and is about profiteering and special interests.

In the March 22 memo from Foreign Office political director Ricketts to Foreign Secretary Straw, Ricketts outlined how to win public and parliamentary support for a war in Britain: "We have to be convincing that: the threat is so serious/imminent that it is worth sending our troops to die for; it is qualitatively different from the threat posed by other proliferators who are closer to achieving nuclear capability (including Iran)."

Blair's government has been criticized for releasing an intelligence dossier on Iraq before the war that warned Saddam could launch chemical or biological weapons on 45 minutes' notice.

On March 25 Straw wrote a memo to Blair, saying he would have a tough time convincing the governing Labour Party that a pre-emptive strike against Iraq was legal under international law.

"If 11 September had not happened, it is doubtful that the U.S. would now be considering military action against Iraq," Straw wrote. "In addition, there has been no credible evidence to link Iraq with OBL (Osama bin Laden) and al-Qaida."

He also questioned stability in a post-Saddam Iraq: "We have also to answer the big question — what will this action achieve? There seems to be a larger hole in this than on anything."


NOT ABOUT DEMOCRACY FREEDOM LIBERTY and all that bullshit. i am so sick of hearing it. look at iraq. and bring our troops home already. how much longer do we have to listen to this rhetoric about we are freeing these people. they don't want us there, and anyone on the ground can tell you that.

i'll repeat this, since no one seems have an answer for it:

the money and lives have been pissed away, and for what?!
 

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