Who Are The Palestinians?

[Phoenall]

1. The annexation of the West Bank by Jordan was illegal so any act performed by Jordan with/to the inhabitants of the occupied territory lack legality.

"Jordan’s Illegal Annexation
In 1950, Jordan annexed the territories it had captured in the 1948 war–-eastern Jerusalem and the West Bank. The April 24th resolution declared “its support for complete unity between the two sides of the Jordan and their union into one State, which is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, at whose head reigns King Abdullah Ibn al Husain...”

While Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation – all other nations, including the Arab states, rejected it -- Great Britain recognized only the annexation of the West Bank. It never recognized either Jordan or Israel’s sovereignty over any sector of Jerusalem, viewing both Jordan’s 1950 annexation and Israel’s annexation of west Jerusalem as illegal."

1948-1967 Jordanian Occupation of Eastern Jerusalem

2. If the West Bank belongs to israel as you say, then to be a democratic state, the inhabitants must be enfranchised.

3. Well then, give the vote to all the people of Israel if it all belongs to israel.

The land is Israeli, the inhabitants aren't so they do not have rights to citizenship or votes. No international law confers automatic citizenship on a person living in another nation. So the arab muslims have to go and find another place to live, or beg Israel for one last chance.

That's not what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says and Israel is a signatory.

Then show the international law that puts it into effect, and when you cant admit that you are posting islamomorn propaganda

 

[Phoenall]

The annexation of the West Bank was only recognized by the United Kingdom and Palkistan:

"Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation – all other nations, including the Arab states, rejected it"
1948-1967 Jordanian Occupation of Eastern Jerusalem

Who decides who is a citizen of a state and what rights those citizens may or may not have other than the state in question?

The state in question.

Who decides what conditions must be met before that citizenship is conferred?

The State in question.

How does being a true democracy necessitate that every citizen carry the same rights and every other?

Will, if you have to ask that question I wonder if there is any basis for debate, but the answer is of course all citizens must have equal rights in a true democracy.


"Characteristics of a True Democracy"

"........rights include freedom of religion, freedom of speech, equal protection under the law, the right to a fair trial and a right to privacy without unwarranted intrusion by the government......"

4 Characteristics of a True Democracy The Classroom Synonym

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which Israel is a signatory also places other requirements on Israel with respect to people under its jurisdiction.

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 2.

• Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 7.

• All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 15.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
• (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 21.

• (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
• (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
• (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Which is still not law and every nation decides its own variation of human rights.


Now look at 15 and ask yourself what are the rights for the Jews ?

Yes, the Israelis are withholding nationality from the non-Jews under their jurisdiction. Thanks for pointing that out.

As is the USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and every other nation in the world. So why are you singling Israel out as the only nation doing this if you are not biased.

Just more of your RACIST LIES AND SPAM

 

[montelatici]

The countries you mention doesn't have jurisdiction over millions of people held in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem as Israel has. If those countries did they would give them citizenship, as we in the U.S. do for the Native Americans who live on reservations.

You continuously make a bit of a fool of yourself. All you do is make false accusations in caps.

 

[toastman]

The countries you mention doesn't have jurisdiction over millions of people held in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem as Israel has. If those countries did they would give them citizenship, as we in the U.S. do for the Native Americans who live on reservations.

You continuously make a bit of a fool of yourself. All you do is make false accusations in caps.

The reservations you talk about are IN AMERICA. The West Bank is not part of Israel.

 

[montelatici]

The West Bank is not part of Israel like the Bantustans weren't part of the South Africa. In any case, the Palestinians are under Israeli jurisdiction for the purposes of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Israel is a signatory.

 

[toastman]

The West Bank is not part of Israel like the Bantustans weren't part of the South Africa. In any case, the Palestinians are under Israeli jurisdiction for the purposes of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Israel is a signatory.

You were using Native Indians living in reservations as a comparison to Palestinians living in the West Bank. I was just explaining to you why your logic was flawed.

 

[montelatici]

The West Bank is not part of Israel like the Bantustans weren't part of the South Africa. In any case, the Palestinians are under Israeli jurisdiction for the purposes of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Israel is a signatory.

You were using Native Indians living in reservations as a comparison to Palestinians living in the West Bank. I was just explaining to you why your logic was flawed.

My logic is never flawed, you should know that by now.

Indian Nations are sovereign.

The map below is a very different map of the US. It’s a map of the US minus the sovereign Indian nations within the continental US. Sort of looks like Swiss Cheese doesn’t it. Some of these areas are much larger than one might expect.

Indian Reservations as Sovereign Nations Native Heritage Project

 

[toastman]

Are you saying that those reserves are not under American sovereignty ?

 

[montelatici]

Are you saying that those reserves are not under American sovereignty ?

No more or no less than the Occupied Territories are under Israeli sovereignty.

 

[toastman]

Are you saying that those reserves are not under American sovereignty ?

No more or no less than the Occupied Territories are under Israeli sovereignty.

Answer the question. Are those reserves under American Sovereignty?

 

[montelatici]

No.

"Tribal sovereignty in the United States is the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. "

Tribal sovereignty in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[toastman]

No.

"Tribal sovereignty in the United States is the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. "

Tribal sovereignty in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly! They are within the U.S borders. Not so with the West Bank. The West Bank is Sovereign Palestinian territory which is not inside Israel's borders.

 

[MJB12741]

No.

"Tribal sovereignty in the United States is the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. "

Tribal sovereignty in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly! They are within the U.S borders. Not so with the West Bank. The West Bank is Sovereign Palestinian territory which is not inside Israel's borders.

Jordan is the smartest player in all of the Middle East. They put it to Israel but good when they refused Israel's offer to return the entire West Bank after the 67 war. How releived Jordan was to sacrifice this piece of land to have Israel to deal with their Palestifnians. In 1970 King Hussein massacred around 20,000 Palestinians during Black September for a lasting peace from them & --- it was successful. And now King Abdullah married the most gorgeous Palestinian woman & refuses to allow any right of return to the rest of the Palestinians. And who knows Palestinians better than Jordanians? So much for Israel to learn from Jordan on how to deal with Palestinians. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

 

[montelatici]

No.

"Tribal sovereignty in the United States is the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. "

Tribal sovereignty in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly! They are within the U.S borders. Not so with the West Bank. The West Bank is Sovereign Palestinian territory which is not inside Israel's borders.

The West Bank is within Israel's border, completely, and Israel completely controls the borders, air space and territorial sea of the West Bank and Gaza. That excludes the possibility of the West Bank having sovereignty except in a de jure manner. Which the Indian tribes have and the Bantustans had.

But playing with semantics to try to condone the treatment of the non-Jews by the Israeli Jews is futile, the facts are glaringly obvious on the ground. This is not history we are talking about, it is happening today, so your silly attempts to justify the unjustifiable is just a waste of time.

 

[toastman]

No.

"Tribal sovereignty in the United States is the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. "

Tribal sovereignty in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Exactly! They are within the U.S borders. Not so with the West Bank. The West Bank is Sovereign Palestinian territory which is not inside Israel's borders.

The West Bank is within Israel's border, completely, and Israel completely controls the borders, air space and territorial sea of the West Bank and Gaza. That excludes the possibility of the West Bank having sovereignty except in a de jure manner. Which the Indian tribes have and the Bantustans had.

But playing with semantics to try to condone the treatment of the non-Jews by the Israeli Jews is futile, the facts are glaringly obvious on the ground. This is not history we are talking about, it is happening today, so your silly attempts to justify the unjustifiable is just a waste of time.

No, the West Bank is NOT within Israel's international borders. Do yourself a favour and stop making a fool of yourself like you do on a daily basis.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The annexation of the West Bank was only recognized by the United Kingdom and Palkistan:
"Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation – all other nations, including the Arab states, rejected it"
1948-1967 Jordanian Occupation of Eastern Jerusalem

Incorrect.
-On June 12, 1950, the Arab League declared the annexation was a temporary, practical measure and that Jordan was holding the territory as a “trustee” pending a future settlement.
-Only the United Kingdom formally recognized the annexation of the West Bank, de facto in the case of East Jerusalem.[23] The United States Department of State also recognized this extension of Jordanian sovereignty.[24][25] Pakistan is often claimed to have recognized Jordan's annexation too, but this is dubious.[26][27]
Jordanian occupation of the West Bank - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
-The part of former Mandatory Palestine occupied by Jordan during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which Israelis call "Judea and Samaria", was renamed "the West Bank". It was annexed to Jordan in 1950 at the request of a Palestinian delegation.[12][dead link] It had been questioned, however, how representative that delegation was, and at the insistence of the Arab League Jordan was considered a trustee only.[13] Although only the United Kingdom and Pakistan recognized the annexation by Jordan, the British did not consider it sovereign to Jordan.[14] It was not condemned by the UNSC and it remained under Jordanian rule until 1967 when it was occupied by Israel. Jordan did not officially relinquish its claim to rule the West Bank until 1988.[15] Israel has not taken the step of annexing the territory (except for parts of it that was made part of the Jerusalem Municipality), rather, there were enacted a complex (and highly controversial) system of military government decrees in effect applying Israeli law in many spheres to Israeli settlements and to them alone.
Annexation - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And so, you can call it "illegal:" if you want, but it does not change the fact that Jordan annexed the WB, gave everyone there citizenship and created representation for them int heir government, and that on 4 JUN 1967, the WB was part of Jordan, and is therefore meaningless to the status of the land and the people at the time of the 6 day war.

Who decides who is a citizen of a state and what rights those citizens may or may not have other than the state in question?
The state in question.
Who decides what conditions must be met before that citizenship is conferred?
The State in question.

So you agree that no outside agency has the power to force these things, that the decision to do so and the criterian by which it is done id held in plenary by the state in question. Good

How does being a true democracy necessitate that every citizen carry the same rights and every other?
Will, if you have to ask that question I wonder if there is any basis for debate, but the answer is of course all citizens must have equal rights in a true democracy.

That being the case, you must then accept the fact that there is no true democracy on the face of the earth as no state extends the same rights to all of its citizens and no state extends all of the rights of citizenship to all people living there.

In the end, none of this does anything to negate the argument I laid out.
By virtue of the fact that Jordan gave up its claim on the WB in 1988 and then reaffirmed that cession of that claim in 1994, Israel is the only state with any legitimate claim on the territory. That said, international law - that is, law governing the conduct and interactions between states - no longer applies, leaving the situation up to Israel to decide.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes, the Israelis are withholding nationality from the non-Jews under their jurisdiction.

You agree that Israel is fully withing her rights as a sovereign state to do so.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The West Bank is not part of Israel...

Indeed it is. It was part of Jordan, but Jordan gave up her claim, thus leaving Israel as the only possible contender.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No.

Absolute horseshit.
In every way imaginable are these territories part of the US, subject to state and federal laws and constitutions, iwth all of their peoples being citizens of the US and the relevant states.

 

[M14 Shooter]

[
No, the West Bank is NOT within Israel's international borders. Do yourself a favour and stop making a fool of yourself like you do on a daily basis.

Jordan - the state which the WB used to be part of -- says they do, in a treaty with Israel
How are Israel and Jordan wrong?