Who are the Israelis?

[P F Tinmore]

The sovereignty of the people is a collective principle,
that is vested with an elected national govt.

Meaning, to exercise sovereignty,
a nation requires a state,
and a functional govt.

Now explain, what is "self-defense" about
randomly shooting rockets at all directions,
and going into restaurants to murder people?

The sovereignty of the people is a collective principle,
that is vested with an elected national govt.

Indeed, states and governments are the extensions of the sovereignty of the people. Who has the sovereignty to create a government?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Our friend "P F Tinmore" is trying to use the Mandate Palestine as defined by the British and which the Arab Palestinians rejected all offers to participate in the governance.

The Mandate did not have sovereignty. That remained with the people. All of the so called offers required the Palestinians to buy into the settler colonial project. They had the right to reject that.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Mandate did not have sovereignty. That remained with the people. All of the so called offers required the Palestinians to buy into the settler colonial project. They had the right to reject that.

They rejected themselves right into nothing.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who are the Israelis?
SUBTOPIC: Understanding the Meaning of Sovereignty.
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

sovereignty ‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty. Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State.
SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law / John P. Grant and J. Craig Barker. -- 3rd ed. Copyright © 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc. pp 563

The Territorial sovereignty (supreme authority) for any of the territories formerly under the Mandate has not been in the hands of the Arab Palestinians for well over a thousand years. The Manlike gained control in 1291, then the Ottoman Empire acquired it in 1517. With the defeat and fall of the Ottoman Empire – the Principle Allied Forces (the British) defeat the last enemy garrison → capturing the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and the territory that would be placed under the Mandate. The British and French, acting on behalf of the Allied Forces, assumed supreme authority for that territory outlined by the Syke-Picot Agreement.

The Mandate did not have sovereignty. That remained with the people. All of the so-called offers required the Palestinians to buy into the settler colonial project. They had the right to reject that.

(COMMENT)

At no time in the last millennium has there been a Palestinian Government having Supreme Authority anywhere in the region until the Oslo Accords.

The Mandate did not have sovereignty. That remained with the people. All of the so called offers required the Palestinians to buy into the settler colonial project. They had the right to reject that.

(COMMENT)

This is another Red Herring. It is a true statement that rebuts nothing. No one said the Mandate had sovereignty. It is a question that was not under debate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who are the Israelis?
SUBTOPIC: Understanding the Meaning of Sovereignty.
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Territorial sovereignty (supreme authority) for any of the territories formerly under the Mandate has not been in the hands of the Arab Palestinians for well over a thousand years. The Manlike gained control in 1291, then the Ottoman Empire acquired it in 1517. With the defeat and fall of the Ottoman Empire – the Principle Allied Forces (the British) defeat the last enemy garrison → capturing the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula and the territory that would be placed under the Mandate. The British and French, acting on behalf of the Allied Forces, assumed supreme authority for that territory outlined by the Syke-Picot Agreement.


(COMMENT)

At no time in the last millennium has there been a Palestinian Government having Supreme Authority anywhere in the region until the Oslo Accords.


(COMMENT)

This is another Red Herring. It is a true statement that rebuts nothing. No one said the Mandate had sovereignty. It is a question that was not under debate.

Most Respectfully,
R

This is another Red Herring. It is a true statement that rebuts nothing. No one said the Mandate had sovereignty. It is a question that was not under debate.

Then who did? It was the Palestinians. They had no legal obligation to do what Britain wanted or to partition their country.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who are the Israelis?
SUBTOPIC: Understanding the Meaning of Sovereignty.
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Allied Powers did not dictate the appointment of sovereignty. Sovereignty has the implication of permanence. What the Allied Powers did do is establish a Mandatory Authority:

​

The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.​

​

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.​

SOURCE: Mandate for Palestine – League of Nations​

​

Then who did? It was the Palestinians. They had no legal obligation to do what Britain wanted or to partition their country.

(COMMENT)

You are absolutely correct. The Arab Palestinians had no obligation to accept any recommendation set by the Allied Powers. However, the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic did (in both the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Lausanne) relinquished sovereignty in favor of the Allied Powers:

​

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.​

​

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.​

SOURCE: Article 16 - Treaty of Lausanne​

​

The Arab Palestinians were not a party to the Treaty. And Palestine was not specifically mentioned in the Treaty.

(∑ Ω)

While there were → and are → plenty of mistakes made in the past and being made in the present → and fault to be shared → the current situation the Arab Palestinians now find themselves in can trace its roots back to the hard-nosed attitude as expressed initially by the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) in the early 1920s. That attitude that radiates from the Arab Palestinians today (from the West Bank and Gaza Strip) are (criminal acts) intended or calculated to create and foment conflict, destabilize regional peace and security and damage the civil and political rights of all concerned.

Article 20​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

SOURCE: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights​

​

​

Every time it is implied that the Arab Palestinians have the Right to a peoples' struggle for liberation from colonial and foreign domination and alíen subjugation by all available means, including armed struggle; the CCPR is violated. And just because /A/RES/3246 (XXIX) that language periodically in a General Assembly Resolution does not give the Arab Palestinians any special license to engage in Jihadism, Fedayeen Activism, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.

One more observation: Just because the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) and those that support the unlawful behaviors keep repeating the chant "liberation from colonial and foreign domination" does not mean it applies to the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The leadership of the Arab Palestinian People agreed to the Special Provisions of Area "C." Nor does it apply to Israeli Sovereign territory. The HoAP cannot back the clock and rewrite history.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Every time it is implied that the Arab Palestinians have the Right to a peoples' struggle for liberation from colonial and foreign domination and alíen subjugation by all available means, including armed struggle; the CCPR is violated.

How so? Israel violates every law on the books yet the Palestine resistance is expected to be pristine.

 

[rylah]

How so? Israel violates every law on the books yet the Palestine resistance is expected to be pristine.

What is "pristine" about shooting indiscriminate rockets,
or "resistance" in murdering random people in restaurants?

Israel is the actual implementation of every law in the books,
which is why none of the said UN resolutions Israel is
accused of violating, cite law or legally binding.

Israelis are an example to all indigenous nations and minorities,
to liberate themselves from the yoke of Arab imperialism.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who are the Israelis?
SUBTOPIC: Violations
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

(PREFACE)

It would be absolutely foolish of me to say that the Israeli Defense, Intelligence, Security, and Police Forces have, for more than a half-century, defended the Citizens of Israel and the sovereignty of the nation from the continuous onslaught of unjustified attacks by Arab Palestinian Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters which operate under many difference banners - and not have made a mistake. In fact, I am very much surprised that more questionable incidents have not occurred. The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint. It would be beyond the laws of probability that the Israelis have prosecuted both active and defensive operations against the uninterrupted threat of many types by the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) and not made mistakes. Having said that, it goes without saying that since the time Yassar Arafat formed Fatah (AKA Palestinian National Liberation Movement) (1950s) armed resistance became the order of the day and the HoAP have been trying to justify their brand of operations ever since.

How so? Israel violates every law on the books yet the Palestine resistance is expected to be pristine.

(COMMENT)

The HoAP (and its many factions) set the new standard for the conduct of activities and expanded the new expectation of targeting (simultaneous Airline Hijackings of Sept 1970 or examples like the 1972 Olympics or the 1978 Coast Road Massacre), the Arab Palestinian resistance movements changed the face of the terrorism and demanded a new emphasis on counter-terrorism operations. No reasonable person with analytical abilities and human emotion can expect the Jewish Nation's protectors to set these striking impacts and terrorist impressions aside and dawn a smiley face. In 2014 the Israeli Operation Protective Edge was the response to the HoAP launching over 4000 rockets into Israel in the preceding 8 months. Try launching that number of rockets into any border state in America, and see how many cowboys show-up on your doorstep.

In 2018, a senior HAMAS official was quoted as saying, “What’s the problem with hundreds of thousands breaking through a fence that is not a border?” It was not an Idol threat. While a bit exaggerated, some 10-20 thousand HoAP approached the border in a threatening manner. They came persistently day-after-day. At the peak, the numbers reach 30,000; but, not sustained. Now who, in their right mind expected Israel not to form a positive defense of the border to oppose the hostiles approaching the security infrastructure and fence? How in their right mind did any one at all not expect that if the HoAP made such a threatening move, no one would get hurt or killed?

Yes, the Arab Palestinian and the associated foolish can argue all they want about the way the Israelis defend themselves. And yes, maybe you can find suspicious incidents that might need further investigation. But I am not prone to have too much sympathy. The next time a HoAP tries to drive into a crowd of people, or walks up and stabs someone while shopping, try to justify that.

OK, I'm off the soapbox...

Just my impression,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who are the Israelis?
SUBTOPIC: Violations
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

(PREFACE)

It would be absolutely foolish of me to say that the Israeli Defense, Intelligence, Security, and Police Forces have, for more than a half-century, defended the Citizens of Israel and the sovereignty of the nation from the continuous onslaught of unjustified attacks by Arab Palestinian Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters which operate under many difference banners - and not have made a mistake. In fact, I am very much surprised that more questionable incidents have not occurred. The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint. It would be beyond the laws of probability that the Israelis have prosecuted both active and defensive operations against the uninterrupted threat of many types by the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) and not made mistakes. Having said that, it goes without saying that since the time Yassar Arafat formed Fatah (AKA Palestinian National Liberation Movement) (1950s) armed resistance became the order of the day and the HoAP have been trying to justify their brand of operations ever since.


(COMMENT)

The HoAP (and its many factions) set the new standard for the conduct of activities and expanded the new expectation of targeting (simultaneous Airline Hijackings of Sept 1970 or examples like the 1972 Olympics or the 1978 Coast Road Massacre), the Arab Palestinian resistance movements changed the face of the terrorism and demanded a new emphasis on counter-terrorism operations. No reasonable person with analytical abilities and human emotion can expect the Jewish Nation's protectors to set these striking impacts and terrorist impressions aside and dawn a smiley face. In 2014 the Israeli Operation Protective Edge was the response to the HoAP launching over 4000 rockets into Israel in the preceding 8 months. Try launching that number of rockets into any border state in America, and see how many cowboys show-up on your doorstep.

In 2018, a senior HAMAS official was quoted as saying, “What’s the problem with hundreds of thousands breaking through a fence that is not a border?” It was not an Idol threat. While a bit exaggerated, some 10-20 thousand HoAP approached the border in a threatening manner. They came persistently day-after-day. At the peak, the numbers reach 30,000; but, not sustained. Now who, in their right mind expected Israel not to form a positive defense of the border to oppose the hostiles approaching the security infrastructure and fence? How in their right mind did any one at all not expect that if the HoAP made such a threatening move, no one would get hurt or killed?

Yes, the Arab Palestinian and the associated foolish can argue all they want about the way the Israelis defend themselves. And yes, maybe you can find suspicious incidents that might need further investigation. But I am not prone to have too much sympathy. The next time a HoAP tries to drive into a crowd of people, or walks up and stabs someone while shopping, try to justify that.

OK, I'm off the soapbox...

Just my impression,

Most Respectfully,
R

Nakba denier.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nakba denier.

The spread of Islam was certainly a disaster.

 

[rylah]

Nakba denier.

Ridiculing the Holocaust is the best you can when losing an argument?

Just when you started fooling us about your motives in the forum...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ridiculing the Holocaust is the best you can when losing an argument?

I never mention the Holocaust.

 

[rylah]

I never mention the Holocaust.

Using Holocaust terminology to frame
disagreement with your ideology,
is no less Holocaust ridicule.

More so against Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestinian family forced out of home in occupied East Jerusalem; settlers move in​

 

[rylah]

Palestinian family forced out of home in occupied East Jerusalem; settlers move in​

Another HamasTV bloodlibel.

Renting doesn't mean ownership,
the house is property of Kollel Galicia,
and now it's returned to its rightful owners.

Who would expect Al Jazeera prefer facts to appealing
to the emotion and the anti-Jewish prejudice of its audience?

 

[Rigby5]

Then what does that make the other 70% of people in Israel, Mongols or Brazilians. Or don't you like the truth about Israel being 60% Sephardic Jews with very few Ashkenazi Jews left. So this one small fact destroys your every post about the Jews being INVADERS and COLONISTS when in fact they are indigenous to the area. Unlike the arab muslims that are just bums from the surrounding lands.

That is just a lie.
The population of Israel/Palestine has never been more than 30% Jewish, and before 1920, the population of Israel/Palestine was only about 5% Jewish.

Russian Jews did not come from the Mideast at all, but were Khazars that came along with the Mongol invasion, and did a mass conversion to Judaism.
{...
The ruling elite of the Khazars was said by Judah Halevi and Abraham ibn Daud to have converted to Rabbinic Judaism in the 8th century,[
...}
Jews have no trace in Palestine until they invaded around 1000 BC.
Jews were eliminated from Palestine many times, and were not native to Palestine at all, but likely came from Egypt or the Sinai.
The Babylonian, Assyrian, and eventually the Romans force all Jews to leave.

Arabs not only are the original inhabitants of all of Palestine and the Land of Canaan, but Hebrew are a small Arab offshoot.

 

[Rigby5]

Another HamasTV bloodlibel.

Renting doesn't mean ownership,
the house is property of Kollel Galicia,
and now it's returned to its rightful owners.

Who would expect Al Jazeera prefer facts to appealing
to the emotion and the anti-Jewish prejudice of its audience?

That is a lie.
Jews were not even allowed to own property in Palestine until after WWI.
There are no legal Jewish landlords, since they never bought almost any land at all.
All the Jewish properties are illegally occupied by force.

 

[Rigby5]

They rejected themselves right into nothing.

Israel only exists because the US illegally armed the Zionists with b-17 bombers, P-51 Mustangs, M-4 Sherman tanks, etc. and murdered tens of thousands of Palestinians.
The existence of Israel is a war crime.

 

[Rigby5]

Ridiculing the Holocaust is the best you can when losing an argument?

Just when you started fooling us about your motives in the forum...

Liar.
All he did was mention the Nakba, which is the illegal murder and forced exile of millions of the legitimate Palestinians land owners by Zionist criminals.
That crime by Zionists has nothing at all to do with the Holocaust, and obviously the Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust either.
So it is wrong to even mention it.