Which Seems More Plausible..... ?

[Meriweather]

That's cool, that's your opinion. It's still lacking an adequate, rational reason to believe any of the man-made religions.

It is opinion based on both study and experience. God is not "man-made" but what man has observed, which many have--and still do--testify.

 

[G.T.]

That's cool, that's your opinion. It's still lacking an adequate, rational reason to believe any of the man-made religions.

It is opinion based on both study and experience. God is not "man-made" but what man has observed, which many have--and still do--testify.

My study and experience tells me different, and as always.... I stand right there in the pocket of rational discourse.. . awaiting a good, rational reason to believe in the man made religions (how many are there? alawtt)....and all Ive received was "eyewitness testimony" which...is dismissable as hearsay without anything empirical to support it. Im not fast and loose in discovery, there are less mistakes this way.

 

[Taz]

The reality is that anyone who has spent any time at all earnestly studying nature and the evolution of space and time cannot help but see purpose in creation.

Sp what's the purpose?

For intelligence to evolve in consciousness which requires it to evolve in conscience.

Dumbest answer yet. Prove it.

 

[ding]

The reality is that anyone who has spent any time at all earnestly studying nature and the evolution of space and time cannot help but see purpose in creation.

Sp what's the purpose?

For intelligence to evolve in consciousness which requires it to evolve in conscience.

Dumbest answer yet. Prove it.

Which part that the universe became self aware or that consciousness is evolving or that for consciousness to evolve conscience must evolve?

 

[AVG-JOE]

THE Creator of Life and The Universe singling out an individual male from The Middle East as "The Apple of HIS Eye",

or


Arab ego?


Hows about we stop squabbling over the past and which ancient Arab story is the true and correct pathway to The God of Abraham as described in The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an, instead celebrate The God of (insert your name here), and start looking forward to our species working together to explore the stars?


Just a thought....

Or it could be that the Jews were chosen because of their tradition of passing down their history orally.

The reality is that anyone who has spent any time at all earnestly studying nature and the evolution of space and time cannot help but see purpose in creation.

Or, the ego of Abraham had him telling his kids and grand kids that God chose him alone from among all men, and the stories managed to survive history.

The universe is a pretty big place and Earth is NOTHING in the grand scheme of it, and Time is a vast expanse that humans have occupied for an immeasurably small percentage.

Which is more plausible: God choosing Abraham, or Abraham choosing God?

My vote remains: Arab ego.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Poll needs more options.

Also, David.

This is America, Bud. You can ALWAYS vote 'none of the above' and describe your thoughts in a post.

 

[AVG-JOE]

As far as the stars, look what we've done to our own planet and to each other in the very short time we've existed on it. The last thing the stars need is humanity in the neighborhood.

Maybe... only one way to find out. Perhaps the relevant spin on the 21st Century is that, so begins The Time of Man.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Abraham just wanted to be known as starting the "one true religion"
Little did he know, at a later time, people would figure out he was just plagiarizing the religion he grew up with

I heard a guy say that he didn't know if he was atheist or agnostic because he's atheistic towards the man made religions (a positive case that they're a fraud) whereas he's agnostic towards the cosmos itself. I thought it was interesting and might call for the invention of a new term....but, I think also that agnosticism still fits that scenario just fine.

Until God Himself picks a religion, all things are possible.

Sentient intelligence gives us the tools to ponder the plausible...

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

Abraham just wanted to be known as starting the "one true religion"
Little did he know, at a later time, people would figure out he was just plagiarizing the religion he grew up with

I heard a guy say that he didn't know if he was atheist or agnostic because he's atheistic towards the man made religions (a positive case that they're a fraud) whereas he's agnostic towards the cosmos itself. I thought it was interesting and might call for the invention of a new term....but, I think also that agnosticism still fits that scenario just fine.

Thats a good way to describe where i am at.

I actually like the idea of 'God'.

That said, the only thing I can fathom of such a Being is that She/He/It is WAY bigger than ALL the ancient stories, let alone any one or two of them.

If God is, defining Him in such narrow terms as are found in The Torah, The New Testament and / or The Qur'an is a bullshit, futile exercise in making Him more human.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Who's squabbling over the past? The Torah is timeless. Ask-a-Jew.

The Torah is timeless in the same way that math is timeless.

I disagree.

Math can be repeated in a controlled environment and repeated and is therefore provable, while The Torah is at best literature that is mostly the opinions of the authors.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Believing in stories just because is irrational.....the skeptic wins there because they're not laboring under the false pretenses that word of mouth is simply "good enough," which we all know through our human experience has been a repeatable failure. That's why eye-witness testimony is the least accurate, because of the literal functioning of the brain and its mechanisms which deceive our cognition.

Believing Abraham had an experience of God because it is a story handed down through time is not irrational. It tells us people can have such experiences. Going forward with the belief that if we seek we shall find, is a much different mindset from, "Doubt if I'll find anything...." Or, "If I do, it's just my brain deceiving me."

Understood.

Now, against the backdrop of all of the knowledge and history of the last 7,000 years - is it plausible?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Hows about we stop squabbling over the past and which ancient Arab story is the true and correct pathway to The God of Abraham as described in The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an, instead celebrate The God of (insert your name here), and start looking forward to our species working together to explore the stars?

Not just the Abrahamic religions. If there's only one God, aren't the polytheistic religions of chief god and sub-gods just another version of God and the angels?

Definitely. I limited my thesis to the Abrahamic religions because of their current popularity and the ease with which folks today can relate, but you are absolutely correct... any religion will do in this discussion.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I always watch my words in intellectual discussions, fair Meriweather. It's respectful and wastes less of the other person's time. When I engaged the word "proper," what I meant was to doubt in the absence of empirical evidence, BUT with an open mind. A person unwilling to absorb knowledge which may contradict his or her own is not engaging in proper skepticism, they're just a douchebag

Here is the situation: We cannot present physical evidence that Abraham ever lived, that he had a son, that he had an experience with God that revealed God did not want child sacrifice, God desires life, not death. Here is where Jews stand out in ancient times, a tradition that is still documented during Roman times, but not followed by Jews. Non-Jews were of the mind that the father held ownership of his wife, children, and property until he passed on. That means adult children were still under his ownership. The father could put children to death (offer them as sacrifice).

With Abraham, Jews learned not only did God desire life, not death, no child belongs to anyone but God. No child is the property of his/her father. Therefore, Jewish children were not sacrificed by a parent in honor of an ancestor. That child did not belong to any ancestor, only to God.

We see the difference in cultures here, cultures that spanned thousands of years. The Jews trace their deviation from the original culture of patriarchal ownership and child sacrifice back to Abraham and his experience of God.

Jewish belief in God resulted in more experiences of God being recorded, the belief that God is with us. Since God is with us, in our midst, then we who live today, are able to encounter him. Have you searched for modern day encounters with God? More importantly, have you sought God for yourself? How much does the skeptic throw himself into seeking God?

What if 'The Jews' got it wrong when Abraham got it right?

What if God wants you, me, and everyone else to abandon our attempts to box Him in to one of the three popular ancient stories and seek Him on our own terms, just like Abraham did?

 

[Meriweather]

What if 'The Jews' got it wrong when Abraham got it right?

What if God wants you, me, and everyone else to abandon our attempts to box Him in to one of the three popular ancient stories and seek Him on our own terms, just like Abraham did?

What Jews--and I--have been trying to tell you all this time is that Abraham's faith in God led to his experiences of God. Let our faith do the same for us. No one got it "wrong". They faithfully handed down Abraham's testimony of God and his experience of God. This led to a nation of people who gave up the notion that children (and wives) were owned by their father until his death. Instead, we all belong to God and that is where our allegiance should lie.

I do not have God in a box. If you have Him there, then by all means open that box.

 

[Mike Dwight]

I'm with only pro-confederate side Presbyterians strict Westminster confessions High Church denominationalism However! Recognizing ecumenical revelation and sisterhood with and not limited to, the Korean Presbyterian Church Abroad daughter of the Korean Presbyterian Church of Korea, and a repentant Church of Scotland, and asking people how their day went is what matters. Some say its one person's journey, some say its the great community , I say exactly 10 million interdispersed nationalities with no language or nationality , or power, hooray! Because God says here is Israel for your people. You know here is God's covenant to a nation of people. Covenanters.



This of course was the only reason for the entire Civil War with a nation forgetting God, so if those outside the circle of 10 million Chosen threaten us again with Godless satanic ways, we know what to say as Stonewall Jackson gave us to say.

The time for war has not yet come, but it will come, and that soon; and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard.

• Speech to cadets at the Virginia Military Institute (March 1861)

 

[AVG-JOE]

What if 'The Jews' got it wrong when Abraham got it right?

What if God wants you, me, and everyone else to abandon our attempts to box Him in to one of the three popular ancient stories and seek Him on our own terms, just like Abraham did?

What Jews--and I--have been trying to tell you all this time is that Abraham's faith in God led to his experiences of God. Let our faith do the same for us. No one got it "wrong". They faithfully handed down Abraham's testimony of God and his experience of God. This led to a nation of people who gave up the notion that children (and wives) were owned by their father until his death. Instead, we all belong to God and that is where our allegiance should lie.

I do not have God in a box. If you have Him there, then by all means open that box.

Kudos!

Abandoning the ancient stories and their varied religions is the first step towards a true relationship. Any true understanding contained within their pages turned to dust thousands of years ago, and should be considered no more than any other literature penned by humans.

 

[Meriweather]

Kudos!

Abandoning the ancient stories and their varied religions is the first step towards a true relationship. Any true understanding contained within their pages turned to dust thousands of years ago, and should be considered no more than any other literature penned by humans.

Don't be ridiculous. Quite the contrary! I followed them closely. True understanding came from not reading them, but by studying them, their culture, their history, their language. The dust of which you are so contemptuous is a mountain range of gold dust.

 

[G.T.]

Kudos!

Abandoning the ancient stories and their varied religions is the first step towards a true relationship. Any true understanding contained within their pages turned to dust thousands of years ago, and should be considered no more than any other literature penned by humans.

Don't be ridiculous. Quite the contrary! I followed them closely. True understanding came from not reading them, but by studying them, their culture, their history, their language. The dust of which you are so contemptuous is a mountain range of gold dust.

Are you here to posit any logic which would lead someone to belief, or just to make assertions and carry on? Religious discussions on the internet are typically interested in spitballing rationale, and certainly with your mountain of gold and your fountain of hearsay, youve come up with some sort of syllogism that lead to your conclusions....can you not articulate that? No pressure

 

[Meriweather]

Are you here to posit any logic which would lead someone to belief, or just to make assertions and carry on? Religious discussions on the internet are typically interested in spitballing rationale, and certainly with your mountain of gold and your fountain of hearsay, youve come up with some sort of syllogism that lead to your conclusions....can you not articulate that? No pressure

Apparently not to the deaf and the blind...

Seriously, I have already done as you asked, and it went zooming past. People of faith believe that humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit. Those who wish to solely focus on the physical and dismiss the spirit cannot be reached. They are like those settlers who refuse to cross the ocean, the Rocky Mountains, or reach the moon. They insist upon rooting themselves in what they know. And what they know is that there is nothing beyond the sea, the mountains, or the earth.

There is a spiritual realm. Advice two thousand years ago remains true today: Seek and you will find. Scripture abounds in accounts of those who did seek and what it was they found. There are people of faith even today who did seek, who did find God. We report, "It can be done, it can happen to you, just like it happened to Abraham, Moses, etc." But...people cling to doubt as it absolves them of further exploration.

 

[G.T.]

Are you here to posit any logic which would lead someone to belief, or just to make assertions and carry on? Religious discussions on the internet are typically interested in spitballing rationale, and certainly with your mountain of gold and your fountain of hearsay, youve come up with some sort of syllogism that lead to your conclusions....can you not articulate that? No pressure

Apparently not to the deaf and the blind...

Seriously, I have already done as you asked, and it went zooming past. People of faith believe that humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit. Those who wish to solely focus on the physical and dismiss the spirit cannot be reached. They are like those settlers who refuse to cross the ocean, the Rocky Mountains, or reach the moon. They insist upon rooting themselves in what they know. And what they know is that there is nothing beyond the sea, the mountains, or the earth.

There is a spiritual realm. Advice two thousand years ago remains true today: Seek and you will find. Scripture abounds in accounts of those who did seek and what it was they found. There are people of faith even today who did seek, who did find God. We report, "It can be done, it can happen to you, just like it happened to Abraham, Moses, etc." But...people cling to doubt as it absolves them of further exploration.

This is another false premise, you assume too much. You posit that since I dont conclude god, I havent adequately sought.

Thats not the only option, unfortunately. Theres a few more.

1. Your beliefs are misguided.
2. Gods too dumb to convey a clear message to all intelligence levels.

Again, you assert something: spiritual realm. Thats an unsupported assertion. That's not how reasoning works, and so I guess the answer to my post was "No, I cant articulate a syllogism that proves a deity."

That sentence says the same as your two wordy paragraphs, but is more concise and it leaves out all of the baseless assumptions and time wasted arguing improvable meta.