Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[koshergrl]

The truth is, our society started to decline sharply when we stepped away from traditional values, starting in the late 60s. That is when we bought the hype that no-fault divorce would be a good thing, that promiscuity is normal and acceptable, that abortion could legally replace responsible behavior and non-fatal methods of birth control, and a single parent could do "just as good" a job as a two-parent family.

Obviously, we were duped.

 

[Steelplate]

yeou're right avatar....things were so much nicer in the 50's when things were cheap, jobs were plentiful and good paying and people's stress level wasn't nearly what it is today.You don't think that the financial decline of a large percentage of our population has something to do with issues like divorce, single parenthood, and promescuity? It all works hand in hand.,..I believe.

Back in the good old days, unwed pregnant women were sent off to baby farms, forced to bear a child and then forced to give it up for adoption.

And then picked up their lives where they left off.

Now they are forced to abortion clinics, where they are forced to kill their babies.

In the first instance, nobody dies. In the second instance, one person always dies...and sometimes 2.

However, your comment doesn't speak to the discussion.

No one forces anyone to have an abortion....well, a mother might strongly suggest it to her daughter.... the father of the child might pressure the mother....but make no mistake...That CHOICE is the pregnant woman's.
I don't know where you get your information...but I'd like to see your words backed up by hard data that says Women in this country are FORCED to have an abortion.

You said it, prove it.

 

[koshergrl]

Of course women get forced to have abortions.

In China, it's government policy.

"Recent reports of women being coerced into late-term abortions by local officials have thrust China’s population control policy into the spotlight and ignited an outcry among policy advisers and scholars who are seeking to push central officials to fundamentally change or repeal a law that penalizes families for having more than one child. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/w...-one-child-law-is-growing.html?pagewanted=all

In the US, it's a problem that is increasingly recognized as a human rights violation.

"
Earlier this month, a 32-year-old pregnant woman, known only as Mary Moe, narrowly avoided being subjected to a forced abortion and sterilization--at the hands of her own parents.
The story has outraged thousands on either side of the political aisle. Moe, who suffers from schizophrenia and bipolar mood disorder, was being treated in a Massachusetts hospital. When she became pregnant, doctors were purportedly concerned that her medications could harm the unborn child. So they recommended an abortion.
The problem is, Moe is a Catholic, who has expressed vocal opposition to abortion.
Since Moe planned to keep her baby, her parents, in conjunction with the doctors, filed a petition with the local courts, which would give them the power to force her to get an abortion."

Massachusetts Forced Abortion Order Shocks U.S. | Population Research Institute

 

[koshergrl]

unless you provide supporting evidence. I've had one say that 2/3 of abortions occur for medical reasons (which I easily and completely revealed as a lie..not a mistake, but a lie) and now you have said that "no" women are coerced into abortion...equally easily exposed as a lie.

 

[koshergrl]

"
The judge ordered that Moe's parents be appointed as coguardians and that Moe could be "coaxed, bribed, or even enticed ... by ruse" into a hospital where she would be sedated and an abortion performed. Additionally, sua sponte, and without notice, the judge directed that any medical facility that performed the abortion also sterilize Moe at the same time "to avoid this painful situation from recurring in the future."

"
The parties estimate that Moe may be up to five months pregnant.
"

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/z-pdf-archive/120119_mary_moe.pdf

And the order was vacated.

 

[koshergrl]

Women who get more than one abortion are most likely to be coerced/abused:

"Among other factors, a history of physical or sexual abuse was associated with repeat induced abortion. Presentation for repeat abortion may be an important indication to screen for a current or past history of relationship violence and sexual abuse. "

Characteristics of women undergoing repeat induced abortion
CMAJ March 1, 2005 vol. 172 no. 5 doi: 10.1503/cmaj.1040341

 

[koshergrl]

Studies show that women with abusive partners are much more likely to get abortions, and that women who get abortion are very likely to have abusive partners:

"Men aged 18 to 35 years (n = 1318) completed assessments of perpetration of intimate partner violence (IPV), abortion involvement, and conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV was associated with greater involvement by men in pregnancies ending in abortion and greater conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV should be considered within family planning and abortion services; policies requiring women to notify or obtain consent of partners before seeking an abortion should be reconsidered; they may facilitate endangerment and coercion regarding such decisions."

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2009.173393
So I think we have established that women are forced into abortion, quite frequently. None of these peer-reviewed articles indicate it is a rarity at all, but rather that it happens quite often and needs to be considered very carefully.

Which of course, it isn't.

 

[catzmeow]

Abortion is murder. It is that simple. Just cause it is murder made legal by morally debased hedonism driven people does not change this.

No one is suggesting that you should have one. I have no problem with your ethical views, but you aren't entitled to force other people to live based upon your ethics.

 

[catzmeow]

Studies show that women with abusive partners are much more likely to get abortions, and that women who get abortion are very likely to have abusive partners:

"Men aged 18 to 35 years (n = 1318) completed assessments of perpetration of intimate partner violence (IPV), abortion involvement, and conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV was associated with greater involvement by men in pregnancies ending in abortion and greater conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV should be considered within family planning and abortion services; policies requiring women to notify or obtain consent of partners before seeking an abortion should be reconsidered; they may facilitate endangerment and coercion regarding such decisions."

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So I think we have established that women are forced into abortion, quite frequently. None of these peer-reviewed articles indicate it is a rarity at all, but rather that it happens quite often and needs to be considered very carefully.

Which of course, it isn't.

Your study doesn't prove what you suggest it does. Your study proves that men are more often involved in abortion decisions when there is IPV present. It doesn't show that this occurs often (most relationships don't experience IPV).

 

[koshergrl]

When it comes to human rights violations, or perceived human rights violations, the "you aren't entitled to interfere" argument no longer applies.

Abortion is seen as a human rights violation by those who believe an innocent is being killed; and is unquestionably a human rights violations in many situations that include coercion. So this is one situation where the trite argument "it's none of your business" does not apply.

 

[koshergrl]

Studies show that women with abusive partners are much more likely to get abortions, and that women who get abortion are very likely to have abusive partners:

"Men aged 18 to 35 years (n = 1318) completed assessments of perpetration of intimate partner violence (IPV), abortion involvement, and conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV was associated with greater involvement by men in pregnancies ending in abortion and greater conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV should be considered within family planning and abortion services; policies requiring women to notify or obtain consent of partners before seeking an abortion should be reconsidered; they may facilitate endangerment and coercion regarding such decisions."

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So I think we have established that women are forced into abortion, quite frequently. None of these peer-reviewed articles indicate it is a rarity at all, but rather that it happens quite often and needs to be considered very carefully.

Which of course, it isn't.

Your study doesn't prove what you suggest it does. Your study proves that men are more often involved in abortion decisions when there is IPV present. It doesn't show that this occurs often (most relationships don't experience IPV).

Yes, it shows exactly what I suggest it does, as I did not state that most relationships involve interpersonal violence.

 

[Vidi]

I don't think they should be, but then, when I see a pregnant woman smoking, it makes me mad. If you choose to have your baby, you must want it to be as healthy as possible, and I hate it when women just smoke and drink and assume the baby will be okay.

Is your anger and hate relevant to the discussion somehow?

My anger has no bearing on the discussion, it is just an opinion.

I disagree. Its when we are outraged that we are more likely to demand a "fix'. I would say anger is very much a part of the issue.

Now let me challenge you, if I may...

When you see a pregnant woman smoking and drinking, you are outraged because of the harm it can do that child, correct?

Now, IF one believes that a child is alive immediately upon conception, then wouldnt the act of abortion cause just as much if not more outrage?

After all, what more harm can be done to a child than taking its whole existence away?

 

[koshergrl]

In an abstract way.

But your personal feelings have no place in a clean debate.

 

[Intense]

In an abstract way.

But your personal feelings have no place in a clean debate.

I would disagree with that.

 

[Vidi]

In an abstract way.

But your personal feelings have no place in a clean debate.

I would disagree.

In many arguments, you will find conflicting science. This argument in fact would fall into that category. We do not agree on the facts. When ddoes like begin being the biggest example.

I can throw in my feelings on the subject, but I cannot say with 100% certainty that I am correct because science cannot say when exactly human life begins. We CAN say this and this and this have to happen in order to create human life, but not when the conciousness or the soul ( if one believes in the soul as Im sure both you and I do ) enters that body.

So all we can go on is our feelings on the subject.

In fact, I would say in your case, feelings are very much a part of the subject. And I mean that without ANY malice whatsoever. I think from your posts that you are someone who feels that abortion is murder and you feel the deaths of those children deeply. Its what makes you such a passionate advocate for your point of view and I think something to take pride in, not something to run away from.

Theres nothing wrong with passionate debate, as long as it doesnt become a trade of insults.

 

[catzmeow]

Studies show that women with abusive partners are much more likely to get abortions, and that women who get abortion are very likely to have abusive partners:

"Men aged 18 to 35 years (n = 1318) completed assessments of perpetration of intimate partner violence (IPV), abortion involvement, and conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV was associated with greater involvement by men in pregnancies ending in abortion and greater conflict regarding decisions to seek abortion. IPV should be considered within family planning and abortion services; policies requiring women to notify or obtain consent of partners before seeking an abortion should be reconsidered; they may facilitate endangerment and coercion regarding such decisions."

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So I think we have established that women are forced into abortion, quite frequently. None of these peer-reviewed articles indicate it is a rarity at all, but rather that it happens quite often and needs to be considered very carefully.

Which of course, it isn't.

Your study doesn't prove what you suggest it does. Your study proves that men are more often involved in abortion decisions when there is IPV present. It doesn't show that this occurs often (most relationships don't experience IPV).

Yes, it shows exactly what I suggest it does, as I did not state that most relationships involve interpersonal violence.

You stated that women are forced into abortion quite frequently. The study doesn't provide this information.

 

[FA_Q2]

There is something wrong, at the outset, with finding a violation of human rights when we expect a 14 year old to learn to control themselves. If you really want 14 year olds to start controlling themselves there has to be consequences. Such as a forced marriage. Kicked out of school, create a work permit category and tell these 14 year old fathers to start supporting their children. People aren't animals who can't control themselves when they are in the mood to rut. Make the consequences severe enough and they will stop finding a right to have sex at the local Wal Mart.

Sex at Walmart? say what now?

Apparently, there is an assumption about who it is that has abortions. FACT is, 2/3rds are medically necessary and the very last thing the woman wants.

Even if its not a wanted pregnancy, there is no such thing as a woman or young girl who starts out wanting an abortion.

You also occasionally hear of women who use abortion as a form of birth control. Nonsense, of course.

The 2/3rds figure has been proven false so I won’t go into that. As for women using abortion as a form of birth control, that can and does happen. I would doubt that it is overly prevalent but my sister in law was one such person. After her 4th abortion, she had an infection and it caused her to be sterile, and it served her right. She called my wife after looking for sympathy. Let’s just say the conversation went so well she would not even call her for a few years after that….

 

[FA_Q2]

But then who should be the ones to decide?

People... What an idea!!!

I will say that I agree with your statement that no theological reasons should be used, that is not the place of the government. Forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said ( I did not read over the last ten pages) but I place the line in the second trimester when the brain begins to form one coherent pice. The brain is what really defines us as people and I think that makes this a perfect place to set the line. It also gives those seeking abortion more than enough time to actually get one.


An abortion debit in the clean room... This should be interesting.

Reason has a place, Dogma, less so. You have no Right to be inside Someone Else's head, when They have a decision to make. It is not your or my place to decide what factors another Individual is allowed to base his or her decision on, Theological or not, a Vote is a Vote.

That is true but it totally ignores the fact that there is a third party involved in this, the child. I really do not care what you want to call it or how much you want to ignore its existence, abortion should not be legal at any time for any reason without regard to the child. That life has rights. Does that mean abortion should be illegal period? No. It also meant that third trimester abortions are abhorrent as well. There is a line and it must be drawn. The question we are faced with is where.

 

[Politico]

Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

When a bunch of strangers get together and start trying to tell someone what they can do.

 

[Noomi]

Is your anger and hate relevant to the discussion somehow?

My anger has no bearing on the discussion, it is just an opinion.

I disagree. Its when we are outraged that we are more likely to demand a "fix'. I would say anger is very much a part of the issue.

Now let me challenge you, if I may...

When you see a pregnant woman smoking and drinking, you are outraged because of the harm it can do that child, correct?

Now, IF one believes that a child is alive immediately upon conception, then wouldnt the act of abortion cause just as much if not more outrage?

After all, what more harm can be done to a child than taking its whole existence away?

Good question.

When I see a pregnant woman smoking, it is clear to me that she has chosen to have her baby. If she chooses to continue with her pregnancy, then I believe she should do everything she can to ensure the child is healthy - and smoking is the worst thing you can do when pregnant.