What's the point of claiming a religion you don't believe?

[Pedro de San Patricio]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

 

[there4eyeM]

What is the point of pushing it? If you don't care, don't care. If she gets the slightest comfort from this little fantasy, would you really want to deny her?
What is your interest in a finish? Why she does it is probably beyond your understanding, or even hers. What would she do if she didn't have this? She might be worse off.
Let it be.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Honestly, it's just that the inconsistency is irrationally annoying, and that goes for all groups. There's just a part of me that can't handle the contradiction of a virulently anti-dogma faithful Catholic, or a closeted and atheist Muslim apologist*, or the Jew who studiously observes every commandment to the letter despite knowing full well - and even lecturing the unsuspecting - on how the Torah those rules come from is a fucked up book of genocide and rape. I totally get that it's their business to believe what they want. I'm a-okay with them doing what they want. It just hurts my brain that people can be so utterly attached to two contradictory beliefs at once without even seeing the obvious contradiction at all.

*While the OP was about her, this guy was probably the most fun. He knew full well that the Qur'an he was trying to sell people on was BS. He knew full well that the society of his homeland where it's the law of the land would murder him if his cover were ever blown. It just... didn't matter to him. He felt like he still had to save souls he knew didn't exist from a Hell that would never come.

 

[Sonny Clark]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

For the same reasons many citizens are Republicans or Democrats. For the same reasons that many citizens were raised in a home that was racist, and they remain racist all their lives. It's difficult to get people to change once they accept certain things as "the way it's suppose to be", or that they consider to be "right and just". Change is hard for most people. In management school, we were taught that any major changes had to be implemented gradually in order to allow employees time to adjust and to accept the change. It's the same in society, whether it be a religion, political stance, or long-held routines.

People have a difficult time understanding how or why "another" religion would better suit their needs. They're mentally programmed from an early age that a certain religion is the only true religion. So, to them, loyalty, trust, and believing that they are doing the right thing and accepting the right religion is deeply ingrained into who they are, and how they fit into society.

Religion and faith are personal, and personally held concepts that define a certain part of a person's life. Some more so than others, but, generally speaking, almost everyone has something they believe in.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

I think the answer may be in your last sentence. You look at it as abandoning their religion. They may see it as abandoning God.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

That is an interesting perspective, but then why move so closely to it without actually crossing the line? Why throw out basically all of the important this-is-what-it-means-to-be-Catholic (or whatever you are/were) dogmas if you still think that they represent the perfect will of a supreme being?

 

[The Irish Ram]

How do you know they haven't done that and still feel there are qualities concerning their specific religion that are worth retaining? They may be discerning what to hold to and what to let go of. There is false dogma in every church we have. There's more than most, but abandoning the congregation is against Biblical advice. Where 2 or more gather, Christ is there.

 

[rdean]

If you read the Bible there are endless quotes about helping the poor and helping the sick. This right wing incarnation of Christianity where they believe in "let him die" and "feed the poor and they will breed" is so far away from the true religion it can almost be described as a Satanic cult. We know bearing false witness is a mortal sin and yet right wingers bear false witness every day. When they say Obama's mother was an X rated porn star or Obama was born in Kenya, they know it's lie but say it anyway. When Christ comes back, he will say to Republicans "You have a lot of 'splainin' to do".

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

That could possibly be her thought process. It's just strange seeing the outcome. I mean, a Christian who doesn't believe in Jesus might as well be an atheist, yeah? Like there's not much difference but that one claims to believe in a guy they don't actually believe in. All the people I mentioned in the OP were pretty close to breaking out of that mindset though.

 

[amrchaos]

If you read the Bible there are endless quotes about helping the poor and helping the sick. This right wing incarnation of Christianity where they believe in "let him die" and "feed the poor and they will breed" is so far away from the true religion it can almost be described as a Satanic cult. We know bearing false witness is a mortal sin and yet right wingers bear false witness every day. When they say Obama's mother was an X rated porn star or Obama was born in Kenya, they know it's lie but say it anyway. When Christ comes back, he will say to Republicans "You have a lot of 'splainin' to do".

Wha-wha-what?
Where in the hell this comes from? The thread was unfolding just fine until the above popped up

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Partisan threadjacking. They do that sometimes. There's a reason RDean is on my evergrowing ignore list.

 

[amrchaos]

OH--by the way

Religion can offer more than fantastical tales and commandments to follow. She's probably enjoy the things she liked about her religion. It is not surprising to see an atheist at some religious service. Why not go to one with her to get an idea why she refuse to leave.

What is the worst thing that could happen? you get converted to Catholicism?

 

[LittleNipper]

Hell is filled with people who think that they have been good enough to go to heaven. The reality is that unless someone believes that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, and died for one's sins --- that person is not entering into heaven no matter what else such a person may accept.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If you read the Bible there are endless quotes about helping the poor and helping the sick. This right wing incarnation of Christianity where they believe in "let him die" and "feed the poor and they will breed" is so far away from the true religion it can almost be described as a Satanic cult. We know bearing false witness is a mortal sin and yet right wingers bear false witness every day. When they say Obama's mother was an X rated porn star or Obama was born in Kenya, they know it's lie but say it anyway. When Christ comes back, he will say to Republicans "You have a lot of 'splainin' to do".

Utter bullshit. You wouldn't know true religion if it jumped up and bit you, therefore you've turned this into a political rant about Republicans. Instead you should be reminding us about the Democrats that started the KKK, and trying to prevent the emancipation of blacks and starting planned parenthood. Sweep your own porch is what Christ would say.

 

[BluePhantom]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

You assume this is a happy time for her. A devout theist going through a crisis of faith is nothing to be celebrated even by atheists. It is a time of terrible confusion, anger, insecurity....it's like going through a nasty divorce. Atheists may not understand this, but a person of faith in this place with their spirituality is going through all the same pains as a divorce, but a divorce from God. They feel betrayed and abandoned and they have no idea what to do or how to do it. By the way, pushing her to leave the church won't make you her hero. Usually, they will despise you for it because you are making them think something they don't want to think about. Sometimes they will blame you for driving a wedge between them and their spirituality. So if you value your relationship with this girl I would tread lightly and let her make her choices on her own. If you are interested in helping her, the best thing you can do is shut up and do a lot of listening and trying to understand her feelings of loss. This is a very painful time for a struggling theist. It's a time for compassion and not celebration

 

[sealybobo]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

when we first realize that all organized religions are b******* it doesn't dawn on us at first that there might not even be a god. we just think religions are man made and so blonde but if all religions are made up and maybe so too is the god concept. the fact is you can't prove God exists or doesn't exist. but when you think about it what arguments do you have in favor of a god existing other than you can't imagine a God not exist. if no religious text is proof of a god what evidence do you have at all?

 

[BluePhantom]

How do you know they haven't done that and still feel there are qualities concerning their specific religion that are worth retaining? They may be discerning what to hold to and what to let go of. There is false dogma in every church we have. There's more than most, but abandoning the congregation is against Biblical advice. Where 2 or more gather, Christ is there.

Exactly...and further, she may think the church has left God, but that doesn't mean she has. Frequently, people of faith can become disillusioned with the denomination they were raised in but it doesn't mean they are ready to leave God completely. Do some reading on Dr. James Fowler's stages of faith and pay close attention to the stage 3 to stage 4 transition.She may not be abandoning faith so much as transitioning to the next level where specific church affiliations are frequently abandoned in favor of a personal path.

 

[BluePhantom]

How do you know they haven't done that and still feel there are qualities concerning their specific religion that are worth retaining? They may be discerning what to hold to and what to let go of. There is false dogma in every church we have. There's more than most, but abandoning the congregation is against Biblical advice. Where 2 or more gather, Christ is there.

Exactly...and further, she may think the church has left God, but that doesn't mean she has. Frequently, people of faith can become disillusioned with the denomination they were raised in but it doesn't mean they are ready to leave God completely. Do some reading on Dr. James Fowler's stages of faith and pay close attention to the stage 3 to stage 4 transition.She may not be abandoning faith so much as transitioning to the next level where specific church affiliations are frequently abandoned in favor of a personal path.

Just to follow up on this...rejecting organized religion is not how people transition from stage 3 to stage 4. It's more of a natural side-effect. In stage 3 we cling very strongly to external authority figures, such as the influences of parents, respected communities, or pastors (organized religion). In stage 4, external authority figures are replaced by internal authority figures. In other words, you begin to place more value in what you are being told in your spirit by God, and less value in what a pastor or someone else tells you. You naturally begin to walk a personal path WITH God instead of following a prescribed path according to someone else. A such, church affiliations begin to drop away because one no longer needs someone else to find communion with God. One begins to forge their own relationship with Him instead of the one religious institutions demand. As such, there is no longer any need for the religious institution. So it is not that rejecting organized religion is the benchmark for transition into stage 4, it is that once you transition into stage 4 organized religion has less application for someone and it usually gets dropped as a natural side effect of the transition.

Stage 3 is all about accepting external interpretations and fitting in with the community. It is not about independent thoughts and personal relationships. It is 'pleasing God through someone or something else'. In stage four the middle man (the religious institution) gets thrown aside and you begin to interact with God one on one. Most people actually never progress beyond stage 3. There are a few posters on these boards who have...Jake Starkey , Meriweather , and TrinityPower to name a few have successfully transitioned into stage 4 or beyond. But, most are stuck in stage 3 or lower and that's as far as most of them will ever get.

One of the reason why is because transitioning between stages is usually natural until you come to transitioning between stages 3 and 4. That is an absolutely brutal transition because you are making a jump from 'what you have been told to believe' to 'what you really believe'. It is a brutal, chaotic transition. When I went through it I thought my world was over because everything I believed had to be abandoned and I had to start all over. Imagine the pain involved when everything you have believed in your entire life is suddenly gone. I was so furious with God I can't find the words to express it. But, you have two choices. Abandon it completely (this is the choice some posters like Guno, CCJ, or Sealybobo have made) or creating something new that works for you. That's what the aforementioned posters and I did. Your relationship with God will never be the same, but, if you can survive the transition, it will be better! That's the good news.

So if you care about this girl, do not direct her choices. That is what the religious institutions have done to her all her life and that is what she is rebelling against. She is experiencing dissonance between what she thought was right and what she is learning is right. But if you influence her toward atheism, you are no better than the religious institutions because you will both be guilty of indoctrination. Let her find her own path, and whatever she chooses, embrace it for her and hope that it makes her life better and has meaning and application for her.

I have had my say

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

PEDRO DE SAN PATRICIO SAID:

“It just puzzles me that she doesn't.”

No reason to be 'puzzled,' she remains for the same reason other theists adhere to their faith: fear.

 

[PratchettFan]

I've been engaged in several dialogues with a rapidly self-radicalizing dissident Catholic for the past several months. She's gotten to the point where she acknowledges that the pope is nuts and the church is wrong about almost everything. Despite this progress, she still adamantly claims to be just as Catholic as always and flies into a rage when the disconnect between her beliefs about much of church dogma being "ancient menfolk retardation" (her words) and most Catholics being "caught in the stupid" (also her words) and her cherished membership in a church she otherwise seems to despise is brought to her attention. As an atheist, I'm totally okay with her leaving. It just puzzles me that she doesn't.

She's not even the first person I've met like that either. I've known many Protestants like that - including even a few secretly atheist pastors. Lots of secular Muslims and almost exclusively atheist Jews as well. None were still actively attending services or nearly as defensive about it as she is though. Why do people do this? What's the point? I mean, you're almost to the finish line when you get to that point. You might as well push it out and abandon religion altogether.

If you don't like the President, disagree with what the Congress is doing, think government is totally screwed up.... does that make you no longer an American?