What would you do?

[xotoxi]

Sorry...I found your answer.

Would it be considered murder if "they" were fundamentalists and granny was a child?

Yes, yes it would.

Exactly as I thought.

Another question, Allie:

If the grandmother was conscious and specifically requested that the tubes be removed and that no trach be performed, would you consider following her wishes ASSISTED SUICIDE?

 

[sealybobo]

Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but given that the family made the decision for her, it appears that the grandmother had some other issues that were fairly serious.

As we are lacking a great deal of info, I'd rather give the family the benefit of the doubt that they did what they thought was best for a suffering woman. Not all families are in a position to provide elder care for someone who needs a lot of attention and whose condition is hopeless.

This is the big ethical issue in health care these days - how extraordinary should the measure be to extend life a bit longer when the quality is very questionable? That is a very personal decision; it's best to have a living will so that the loved ones are able to follow the wishes of the patient.

(Personally, I'd rather be allowed to die peacefully than to live in a mentally unaware state with no hope of recovery - but all of us are different in this regard.)

And we were mad at the doctors for suggesting it at first. And my brothers doctor friend made him feel like the trach procedure wasn't a big deal too.

We thought the doctors were being lazy and just didn't want to try on a 90 year old.

But then why would EVERY nurse and EVERY doctor give us the same advice. And they PLEADED with us not to make her suffer the trach procedure.

Then we realized, my brothers doctor friend is in Florida, so how can she diagnose? Plus, she's just telling my brother what he wanted to hear.

If we did the wrong thing, then all the doctors working on my gramma are lying murderers, and I doubt that.

 

[sealybobo]

My family faced a somewhat similar situation with my maternal grandfather.

My grandparents lived halfway across the country. Grandpa was quite a bit older than Grandma. He developed Alzheimers and, eventually, Grandma could no longer take care of him. She did not want to move out of the small town in which they had lived for 40 years - so she put him in a nursing home.

He went through a phase where he thought he was being held captive in a concentration camp - and would beg the nurses to let him escape. His lucid moments became few and far between. After a year, his prostate cancer reappeared; he was 92. Grandma decided not to have him go through the invasive treatment to remove the cancer. He died within a couple of months. I believe that was the most merciful course of action given his deteriorated mental state and advanced years.

We aren't designed to live forever - and clinging to keep someone alive who is clearly suffering is not merciful - and a bit self-absorbed, imo. There is Grace in letting someone go surrounded by love.

Another family in the waiting room was going thru the same thing you did. Yea, you don't give a 90 year old Chemotherapy.

 

[sealybobo]

That's just silly. We're all in the dying process. Diabetes is a debilitating disease, and kids with it don't generally live long lives and can end up comatose or dead before they're 40.

Treatment of ANY life-threatening disease, injury or illness is only prolonging the dying process.

Try again.

Do you know any Type I diabetics?

Yes. A good friend of mine died a couple of years ago from it. He was 30 years old.
A gradeschool friend of mine died at 7.

I've cared for people in nursing homes who are comatose as a result of it.
My father died from throat cancer. He had a trache for more than a year and was happy to have it.

If we thought my gramma would one day get better, we would have done the trach.

PS. You said in a previous post that we could take care of her at home? My parents tried and couldn't do it. Some people can, some can't.

I could do it. I'd eventually get over the fact that I'm wiping my mothers ass. My parents could not do it.

 

[sealybobo]

Boedicca has summed up the diverse situations rather well. When someone cannot expect any quality of life, then every measure is vain; all that is done is to prolong the suffering of the person being treated. Children typically have far better recuperative powers than elderly patients so a procedure with no hope for the aged may have great promise for the youth. Not a life free of pain, but a life which can be enjoyed.
Physicians and families face increasing pressure to engage in medical procedures which may not actually give any increased chance of life that a person would wish to live. It is easy for someone on the outside looking in to make a harsh judgment and call either decision a mistake.
If the life is extended, one is open to a charge of extending the patient's suffering. If not, one is called a murderer. How righteous such name-callers must feel, to trod upon the pain of another and make it worse, just so they can spout their holier than thou platitudes.

Amen. And my family understands that my brother had the best intentions. He didn't want her to suffer. But he also didn't want to give up. He truly hoped/believed that she might get better and one day be at family get togethers again. But he was wrong. He wasn't up there every day. And no, she didn't seem to be in pain on day 13 when the tube was down her throat, even though she was clearly uncomfortable. So he didn't want to let a woman go when she's looking at us and isn't in pain. But the tube had to come out and the trach procedure would have been torture, plus pointless. Unless Allie knows more than the doctors.

And she wasn't getting any better. Without the trach or tube, she was never going to breathe on her own.

So my brother didn't want her to live her last months in a bed with a tube in her neck, but that is what his decision would have caused. We would have hated to see that. And then we would feel guilty prolonging her suffering. And was he going to go see her every day? I doubt it. She didn't want to live that way.

PS. The old folks homes are disgusting!!! We need to make those places better. I heard horror stories about them. They are like the Walter Reed VA hospitals. No one gives a shit and they ignore those poor people and abuse them sometimes, bed sores, infections, etc.

If she was 60, we would have done the trach. But not at 90.

 

[xsited1]

Hi everyone. My 90 year old grandmother just died. They had a ventalator tube down her throat for 14 days. They said they can't keep the tube in any longer than 14 days, so our options were to go to a Trakeotomy tube in her neck, or just let her go in piece.

Every doctor and nurse said to let her go in piece. BUT, one doctor who's a friend of the family said that the trake procedure isn't that bad and that she could possibly one day get better and go back to just oxygen.

But more likely she'd go to a really crappy old folks home and live her last days with a tube connected to her neck. Unable to speak, walk, eat, etc.

Anyways, I had one relative who wanted to do the trake procedure. He's mad at us for not trying everything, and we can't believe he doesn't see our side of it.

What would you guys do? Would you keep them alive and try even though its probably pointless and you would just prolong their suffering? Or would you take the tube out of their throat and just let them go in piece, with lots of morphine to take away the pain?

You should all let your families know what you want for yourselves. Now we know that none of us want the trake in the throat, unless we are young enough that we will recover. But if we only have a 20% chance of getting better and having a good quality of life, we all said NO, let us go in piece.

I'm assuming religious people might say do everything you can, no matter what. I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

Your Grandmother said "where there is life there is hope." It sounds like she would've wanted to try the trach. But the family already made the decision for her. She's dead, so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[AllieBaba]

It sounds like the most merciful thing to do was to let go. You didn't say if your grandmother left a livign will, instructions, or a do not resuscitate order. As most of the family was unified, I'd be at peace with the decision.

Couldn't discuss it with her. And my mom didn't want to talk about it either. Now they wish they did. But gramma did say, "where there is life there is hope", so we tried.

Doesn't sound like you tried. You pushed your family to make a decision they were reluctant to make, in the face of what you knew your grandmother believed.

But I'm sure you feel great about it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Boedicca has summed up the diverse situations rather well. When someone cannot expect any quality of life, then every measure is vain; all that is done is to prolong the suffering of the person being treated. Children typically have far better recuperative powers than elderly patients so a procedure with no hope for the aged may have great promise for the youth. Not a life free of pain, but a life which can be enjoyed.
Physicians and families face increasing pressure to engage in medical procedures which may not actually give any increased chance of life that a person would wish to live. It is easy for someone on the outside looking in to make a harsh judgment and call either decision a mistake.
If the life is extended, one is open to a charge of extending the patient's suffering. If not, one is called a murderer. How righteous such name-callers must feel, to trod upon the pain of another and make it worse, just so they can spout their holier than thou platitudes.

Amen. And my family understands that my brother had the best intentions. He didn't want her to suffer. But he also didn't want to give up. He truly hoped/believed that she might get better and one day be at family get togethers again. But he was wrong. He wasn't up there every day. And no, she didn't seem to be in pain on day 13 when the tube was down her throat, even though she was clearly uncomfortable. So he didn't want to let a woman go when she's looking at us and isn't in pain. But the tube had to come out and the trach procedure would have been torture, plus pointless. Unless Allie knows more than the doctors.

And she wasn't getting any better. Without the trach or tube, she was never going to breathe on her own.

So my brother didn't want her to live her last months in a bed with a tube in her neck, but that is what his decision would have caused. We would have hated to see that. And then we would feel guilty prolonging her suffering. And was he going to go see her every day? I doubt it. She didn't want to live that way.

PS. The old folks homes are disgusting!!! We need to make those places better. I heard horror stories about them. They are like the Walter Reed VA hospitals. No one gives a shit and they ignore those poor people and abuse them sometimes, bed sores, infections, etc.

If she was 60, we would have done the trach. But not at 90.

My grandma lived until she was 99.
And make up your mind...if she needed a trache to breath, that doesn't mean she couldn't breathe on her own. You already said that they were taking her off the venilator, so I assume she could breathe on her own, but her throat was damaged?

Who knows, you won't say.

Anyway, good for you. You bullied your family into killing your grandma, who you say didn't let anyone know what she wanted...though she always said "where there's life there's hope".

 

[AllieBaba]

Sorry...I found your answer.

Would it be considered murder if "they" were fundamentalists and granny was a child?

Yes, yes it would.

Exactly as I thought.

Another question, Allie:

If the grandmother was conscious and specifically requested that the tubes be removed and that no trach be performed, would you consider following her wishes ASSISTED SUICIDE?

What are you blathering about now? I see you admit I answered the question some time ago, at any rate. Perhaps you're sobering up.

And yes, if she specifically requested that she be suffocated, it would be assisted suicide.

 

[xotoxi]

Anyway, good for you. You bullied your family into killing your grandma, who you say didn't let anyone know what she wanted...though she always said "where there's life there's hope".

You get the award for the Cruelest ***** on the Board.

I hope that when your time comes, it is agonizing.

 

[uscitizen]

Difficult to decide for someone else.
For myself I plan on taking myself out when things get too bad.
And I have a living will incase someting makes me a vegetable before then.

Everyone should have a living will to take the pressure off of the family.

Gramma never wanted to talk about it.

It was tough. The doctors were asking my mom and her sister what to do and they couldn't pull the trigger. So finally I spoke up and said, "they don't want the trake"

And then the doctors were going to give them a day or two to think about it and I said, "no, today! NOW!" and everyone started talking. But until I pushed my mom and her sister, they didn't want to make the decision. They kept putting it off and asking questions that were irrelivent.


We did the right thing.

I thnk so as well. It is never easy and my hat is off to you for doing what you had to do.

 

[AllieBaba]

How would you know?

Or are you just pro-euthanasia, regardless of who it is or what they want?

 

[uscitizen]

Boedicca has summed up the diverse situations rather well. When someone cannot expect any quality of life, then every measure is vain; all that is done is to prolong the suffering of the person being treated. Children typically have far better recuperative powers than elderly patients so a procedure with no hope for the aged may have great promise for the youth. Not a life free of pain, but a life which can be enjoyed.
Physicians and families face increasing pressure to engage in medical procedures which may not actually give any increased chance of life that a person would wish to live. It is easy for someone on the outside looking in to make a harsh judgment and call either decision a mistake.
If the life is extended, one is open to a charge of extending the patient's suffering. If not, one is called a murderer. How righteous such name-callers must feel, to trod upon the pain of another and make it worse, just so they can spout their holier than thou platitudes.

Amen. And my family understands that my brother had the best intentions. He didn't want her to suffer. But he also didn't want to give up. He truly hoped/believed that she might get better and one day be at family get togethers again. But he was wrong. He wasn't up there every day. And no, she didn't seem to be in pain on day 13 when the tube was down her throat, even though she was clearly uncomfortable. So he didn't want to let a woman go when she's looking at us and isn't in pain. But the tube had to come out and the trach procedure would have been torture, plus pointless. Unless Allie knows more than the doctors.

And she wasn't getting any better. Without the trach or tube, she was never going to breathe on her own.

So my brother didn't want her to live her last months in a bed with a tube in her neck, but that is what his decision would have caused. We would have hated to see that. And then we would feel guilty prolonging her suffering. And was he going to go see her every day? I doubt it. She didn't want to live that way.

PS. The old folks homes are disgusting!!! We need to make those places better. I heard horror stories about them. They are like the Walter Reed VA hospitals. No one gives a shit and they ignore those poor people and abuse them sometimes, bed sores, infections, etc.

If she was 60, we would have done the trach. But not at 90.

My grandma lived until she was 99.
And make up your mind...if she needed a trache to breath, that doesn't mean she couldn't breathe on her own. You already said that they were taking her off the venilator, so I assume she could breathe on her own, but her throat was damaged?

Who knows, you won't say.

Anyway, good for you. You bullied your family into killing your grandma, who you say didn't let anyone know what she wanted...though she always said "where there's life there's hope".

You deserve to be married to Rush. You are both cold hearless sub humans/

 

[AllieBaba]

Yeah, we're the sub-humans because we don't think people should be sacrificed to save dweebs like you and bobo from the horror of having to spend a day wiping the ass of a loved one.

There's something intrinsically wrong when it becomes "civilized" to kill off the people who burden us, or who can't speak up for themselves...and the people who are called names are the ones who protect the vulnerable, sick and weak.

 

[Anguille]

Yeah, we're the sub-humans because we don't think people should be sacrificed to save dweebs like you and bobo from the horror of having to spend a day wiping the ass of a loved one.

There's something intrinsically wrong when it becomes "civilized" to kill off the people who burden us, or who can't speak up for themselves...and the people who are called names are the ones who protect the vulnerable, sick and weak.

Unless it's one of your Christians doing it to a defenseless child in the name of religious freedom.

 

[AllieBaba]

Can't have one without the other. If you think families should decide to deny treatment, you have to let them all do it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Anyway, good for you. You bullied your family into killing your grandma, who you say didn't let anyone know what she wanted...though she always said "where there's life there's hope".

You get the award for the Cruelest ***** on the Board.

I hope that when your time comes, it is agonizing.

Of course it won't be...assholes like you will be lining up to make sure I'm killed off as soon as I can't fight you off the "off" switch.

 

[uscitizen]

Anyway, good for you. You bullied your family into killing your grandma, who you say didn't let anyone know what she wanted...though she always said "where there's life there's hope".

You get the award for the Cruelest ***** on the Board.

I hope that when your time comes, it is agonizing.

Of course it won't be...assholes like you will be lining up to make sure I'm killed off as soon as I can't fight you off the "off" switch.

a good reason to treat you children nice now

 

[AllieBaba]

As I said before..the people in my family don't die in nursing homes.

And we don't kill them off when they become a nuisance. If we did I would have offed my mom years ago.

 

[Anguille]

Can't have one without the other. If you think families should decide to deny treatment, you have to let them all do it.

Not without good reason.