What makes Paying for SEX - Wrong ?

[PubliusInfinitum]

PI, I would say that, based on the popularity, prevalence and income of the pornography industry, that there is a very large number of adults who peruse porn. The number of those who are pedophiles is, I think, very small. So one does not seem to lead to the other.

Perhaps those who would be pedophiles are hastened along in their ways by easy access to pornography. I'll grant you that. But the same might be true of having easy access to children's programming. Maybe children should not be allowed in public unless covered in heavy robes to conceal their forms, just in case it should stimulate a possible pedophile.

Your analogy of the bank withdrawal doesn't actually answer my question about actions you can take that are legal so long as no one pays for it. Again, it is perfectly legal to have sex with as many partners as you wish, as often as you wish (obviously assuming they are willing partners of proper age), but if any of them pay you for the act, it becomes illegal. Especially in a capitalist society such as ours, that seems odd to me.

I imagine this is another of those issues we are simply going to continue to disagree about. As always, I hope I am not misreading the meaning of your posts, and I'm not trying to say your opinions are invalid, just that I disagree with them or the reasoning that brought you to them.

Huh... Well Monty... what's the reasonable cut off for Pedophile production?

Certainly, as I stated, most people manage to realize the problem before the pursuit of porn becomes a crippling obession... You're saying that because of this, we should encourage pronography; when my position is that we should discourage it...

Allow my to provide an example...

Recently I had a problem on one of my computers... in the following day or two I was talking to an associate who operates another business which paralells my business, so we see one another frequently on various job-sites.

He's a younger guy, married with one crumb cruncher and he makes the comment that I should be careful about the porn I download. To which I responded that I not only do not download porn; but I do not look at porn.

To say he was doubtful would be an understatement.

So I explained to him pretty much what I posted above... placing the emphasis on his marriage and not pedophilia.

Now I can't sit here and tell you that this guy went home and cleaned his pix files... and swore off pornography; but at the end of our discussion he returned to remark that much of what I had said was true; that he had never thought of it in those terms... and had never felt particularly good about looking at it; and so on.

Now I didn't slice him up and point a boney finger of condemnation... casting him out, bannishing him from my orbit... I simply let him know that what he wasdoing, was ultimately destructive to himself, his marriage and his child... and that I had always respected him, but that such could not be maintained, where I knew him to be a self destructive individual, who would risk his child being exposed to raw pornography and his wife's trust.

In short, I discouraged him... I made it clear that such was not acceptable to me and that such was not acceptable to the sanctity of his marriage or the mental health or innocence of his child, thus not acceptable for his marriage... and I let him know that I did not participate in such, nor accept as company, those who do.

Sadly, Monty, I have to scoot... But perhaps we can continue this in the near future.

 

[Montrovant]

I wouldn't say I believe porn should be encouraged. In fact, as far as age restriction goes, I'm all for discouragement. I simply think it should continue to be allowed, legally.

 

[caterpillar]

i've never understood how porn is legal, but prostitution is not.

This I do agree with. If one or the other is to be legal, prostitution should be legal and so-called "porn" illegal. Children can and do easily access "porn" yet they can't access prostitution. Prostitution is also not generally as perverted as the nonsensical filth protrayed as normal and commonplace in hardcore "porn." This rubbish has completely changed how most people view sex. Its very sad. Thousands of years of prostitution didn't take the passion out of lovemaking the way a couple of decades of pervasive "porn" has done. That trash is not speech and should never have been declared as such.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I wouldn't say I believe porn should be encouraged. In fact, as far as age restriction goes, I'm all for discouragement. I simply think it should continue to be allowed, legally.

Yeah I tend to agree with strong reservations.

I think its a fools errand to legalize that which is to be discouraged.

 

[Agnapostate]

Age restrictions? Little logical support for that, I've found.

 

[auditor0007]

It makes it easier to combat the real problem, which is Child Prostitution.

Yeah, but for Bozo Bobby here, that would be anyone under 45.

Why is it, when they like me, I don't like them, and when I like them, they don't like me?

More than that, why should you have to pay for it, when if you do a little work, you'll get it for free?

Sex is free? Since when? There is always a price to be paid for sex. I imagine for many, prostitution would be the cheaper way to go.

 

[frazzledgear]

What makes Paying for SEX - Wrong ?

Is it Wrong because 75% of Americans are Cowards ?

Is it wrong because most Americans don't have to pay for sex ?

Is it wrong for myself to go to a House somewhere
( make it like a benefit for us VETS )
and pay so I can be with an attractive gal ?

It seems like Non-White women
are more open to more sexual partners.
Besides I believe most women done with reproduction
are don having sex on a regular basis.
Us guys can reproduce till the day we die.
Besides I'm a very Talented guy.

Burbank Bob

What makes it wrong to kill? Or rob and steal? Or assault someone? Or rape? What makes it wrong to sell your baby? What makes it wrong to pay someone to give you their kidney? For those who believe that their existence is a random and meaningless event anyway -then why abide by ANY of the rules of society if they happen to get in your way? If life has no meaning anyway, then the notion of "right and wrong" is a false and phony one being unfairly inflicted on you anyway. Why not ask why violating any of these rules is wrong instead of picking out just this one because its one YOU personally don't like? Even though you know that millions in this country DO see something wrong with violating that rule. So its one rule YOU disagree with and would like to live in a society where it is legal - even while millions and the vast majority all want it to be ourlawed in the society THEY live in.

I happen to believe that people who form a society have the right to determine the rules they want to live by. Different societies have different rules even while some rules are universal. Prohibiting prostitution is nearly universal and the norm in more countries than not -by a WIDE margin. Throughout history the overwhelming and vast majority of all people DO NOT WANT to live in a society where it is legal. For a reason -see if you can figure out what that is.

In case you didn't know it, the rules chosen by any society exist to make it EASIER for the people of that society to live in close quarters with and near each other. Not to make it easier for one gender to exploit the other. Maybe you really don't have any problems if you live in a society where government not only tolerates prostitution - but offers to be your daughter's pimp, provide a place for her to spread her legs or suck some stranger's dick for a few bucks (and takes its cut of her earnings of course) -while guaranteeing her john that she is clean for HIS benefit. But most people in the WORLD do have a problem with that and reject having a society that would allow or tolerate that. The vast majority of people have always and will always reject the notion of government as pimp. It is a fact that simply allowing prostitution without government becoming the pimp results in increases in all sorts of crimes and creates entire areas that are unsafe for people, there is zero benefit to simply legalizing it. So legalizing it must involve government regulating prostitution and becoming a major player in the sex trade business. But the vast majority of people have always and will always reject the notion of government as pimp. Like the vast majority in the world -I just don't want to live in a society where my government is pimping some of its own citizens for the sexual benefit of other citizens.

I know some people, and men in particular, who seem to believe that women go into prostitution because they just LOVE it. They just LOVE spreading their legs and sucking the dicks of total strangers who may or may not have all sorts of STDs or crabs and scabies. And it is primarily men who seem to think that if society just treated it like a legitimate "career", all of society as well as the individual would all somehow benefit. Get real -no society in history has ever benefitted by legalizing prostitution. Not once -so pretending it would do so today is the same fantasy that propelled some societies to give it a try in the past. The best reason for not legalizing prostitution is the past. It has already been tried several times throughout history -and never once did it work out. And every society that experimented with it eventually outlawed it again. Just as the few countries experimenting with it today will end up doing as well. Once the unwanted and unintended consequences become intolerable to the majority -prostitution is criminalized again.

In reality women go into prostitution out of desperation -not because they hoped to grow up to be a whore who spread her legs to total strangers in exchange for money. It is the act of last resort by the financially desperate and always has been. Legalizing it essentially tells such women they need not bother looking for a better way to make ends meet. A way that doesn't take such a terrible physical, emotional, mental and spiritual toll on them.

For the life of me I do not understand the people who think it is the proper role of government to act as a PIMP, guaranteeing its customers that their whores are clean and reasonably priced. They sure aren't promising the prostitutes that their johns are clean though, are they? So legalized prostitution exists for the benefit of MEN, it would be to make it easier and safer for MEN to satisfy their lust. In spite of ALWAYS claiming otherwise, legalizing it is NEVER really for the benefit of the financially desperate women driven to sell their bodies because at all times they will still be fully exposed to the same nonstop risks of disease and violence in spite of having government as their pimp. Like ALL pimps, government as pimp would still be about customer service -and their customers are not their stable of whores. Having government as pimp -is not a step forward in my book. Not for society, women or our species.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Comparing prostitution to murder, assault, and rape makes absolutely no sense. The difference is that the latter 3 are non-consensual forms of aggression against another person, whereas prostitution is a consensual act.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Comparing prostitution to murder, assault, and rape makes absolutely no sense. The difference is that the latter 3 are non-consensual forms of aggression against another person, whereas prostitution is a consensual act.

Kevin... Come on... Of course it is... but such is not relevant, as without regard to consent, MURDER IS WRONG.

If I consent for you to kill me... you're going to commit murder the INSTANT you take my life.

Prostitution is rape by consent... it is an exchange of consideration for one individual to enter the body of another individual and to engage in the act which nature designed for PROCREATION. Thus where such a transaction results in the conception of an individual, the result is that another human being has been conceived, where the whore will either be strapped to it's sustanance or she will kill it.

It's your responsibility, which comes with your RIGHT TO PURSUE THE FULFILLMENT OF YOUR LIFE< TO NOT EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS TO THE DETRIMENT OF ANOTHER.

When one takes to entering the vagina of a female and ejactulates their sperm into that female, even where condoms are utilized to prevent the sperm from accessing the reproductive system of the female, or where chemical warfare is applied to kill the sperm to prevent their means to fertilize the egg... one is STILL subjecting THAT PERSON to the VERY HIGH LIKELIHOOD that they will conceive and thus face the unenviable alternatives of raising a child which was not conceived in love; which is not sustainable through their means OR... killing their own child.

And for what? $100... $1000... $10,000

That sir is NOT a fair exchange of value; I know it; you know it; the whore knows it and to rationalize that "SHE ASKED FOR IT" is absurd. She doesn't have the right to destroy her life... That life is a result of an endowment; it is a gift; it is her responsibility to defend it; just like everyone else.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Comparing prostitution to murder, assault, and rape makes absolutely no sense. The difference is that the latter 3 are non-consensual forms of aggression against another person, whereas prostitution is a consensual act.

Kevin... Come on... Of course it is... but such is not relevant, as without regard to consent, MURDER IS WRONG.

If I consent for you to kill me... you're going to commit murder the INSTANT you take my life.

Prostitution is rape by consent... it is an exchange of consideration for one individual to enter the body of another individual and to engage in the act which nature designed for PROCREATION. Thus where such a transaction results in the conception of an individual, the result is that another human being has been conceived, where the whore will either be strapped to it's sustanance or she will kill it.

It's your responsibility, which comes with your RIGHT TO PURSUE THE FULFILLMENT OF YOUR LIFE< TO NOT EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS TO THE DETRIMENT OF ANOTHER.

When one takes to entering the vagina of a female and ejactulates their sperm into that female, even where condoms are utilized to prevent the sperm from accessing the reproductive system of the female, or where chemical warfare is applied to kill the sperm to prevent their means to fertilize the egg... one is STILL subjecting THAT PERSON to the VERY HIGH LIKELIHOOD that they will conceive and thus face the unenviable alternatives of raising a child which was not conceived in love; which is not sustainable through their means OR... killing their own child.

And for what? $100... $1000... $10,000

That sir is NOT a fair exchange of value; I know it; you know it; the whore knows it and to rationalize that "SHE ASKED FOR IT" is absurd. She doesn't have the right to destroy her life... That life is a result of an endowment; it is a gift; it is her responsibility to defend it; just like everyone else.

I'm not trying to argue that prostitution is good in any way, what I'm saying is that no one has the right to tell anyone else whether they can engage in prostitution. I'm sure everyone knows the risks of having sex, and that risk remains whether you pay for the sex or not.

 

[BaltimoreBob]

No woman (those that have been on the Howard Stern show)
that are in the Porn Business say there into it
because they enjoy Sex and the money it provides them.

Howard keeps trying to find if any of them were Molested
at an early age.
But I haven't heard any as yet.

One of my old girlfriends 1st sexual incident was at age 9
by her Uncle.
But she seemed fine and I did ask her for her hand in marriage.
It was my first of two turn downs.

Baltimore Bob

 

[frazzledgear]

Comparing prostitution to murder, assault, and rape makes absolutely no sense. The difference is that the latter 3 are non-consensual forms of aggression against another person, whereas prostitution is a consensual act.

That's it? That's your response to what I wrote? ROFLMAO! I didn't compare prostitution to murder, assault and rape. Or to baby selling. Or the selling of body parts -which I noticed you ignored. What I said was that those things are ALL deemed wrong by society itself. Society is made up of PEOPLE -so it is people who have deemed such acts to be wrong and acts they do NOT want in their society. Just like they have deemed prostitution to be wrong and unwanted in society. It doesn't matter WHY people have deemed any of those things wrong. You only pointed out WHY people might consider murder, rape and assault to be wrong -which we all already know. You also know why society has deemed baby selling and the selling of body parts to be wrong. And you also know why society and the overwhelming vast majority of people in the WORLD have deemed prostitution to be wrong -but want to pretend people have no legitimate justification to do so. I pointed out that they certainly do.

The judgment of what is right and wrong is made by PEOPLE -for whatever reasons they use to do so. The list of reasons why people might consider certain acts to be wrong can be as varied as the number of people being asked the question. The vast majority of people in the WORLD right now and throughout history have deemed exchanging money for sex to be WRONG -for whatever reasons they have. Their reasons are no less legitimate than their reasons for considering murder to be wrong. Even though the reasons they consider murder to be wrong are different from why they consider baby selling to be wrong, which are different from their reasons for finding selling body parts to be wrong, which are different yet again from their reasons for considering prostitution to be wrong - and are still different from their reasons for believing allowing your dog to crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up to be wrong. All of which are still different from considering the desecration of a corpse or the consumption of human flesh to also be wrong. Harm comes in many forms and certain acts may be deemed to harm society itself. Harming society itself is just as legitimate a reason to ban a specific act as banning an act that inflicts physical harm to an individual. No one wants to live in a society plagued by rampant immorality with a government that not only tolerates but aids and abets immoral activities.

History has repeatedly proven that for a society to flourish and continue to exist, it is a critical mass of the MAJORITY that must be satisfied by the conditions within that society. Not the minority. As long as the acts being banned do not involve TRUE civil rights or human rights -then the majority in all societies have the right to decide the laws and rules they want to live by. While all societies ban certain acts like murder, there is a HUGE range of other acts that societies may also LEGITIMATELY ban if the members of that society decide they do not want those activities allowed in THEIR society. And whether you like it or not, one of those acts throughout history and for the vast majority in the world -is prostitution. While forbidding owners to let their dog crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up is much less a universal ban. But both can be legitimately banned because there is no more a "right" to prostitute oneself than there is a "right" to let your dog crap on the sidewalk and not clean it up.

YOU and other pro-legalized prostitution people are actually saying that only certain reasons are legitimate reasons to ban a certain act from society, that it must involve physical harm to another person to be legitimately banned -and I am saying there are all sorts of legitimate reasons to ban certain acts a society has deemed to be undesirable. It isn't just acts that involve direct physical harm to another living person that are not allowed in societies. Everyone understands the idea of "cause and effect" as well as the reality that some acts that may not cause direct physical harm to others do have unwanted and undesirable consequences that harm society itself.

Government as pimp is not considered to be a desirable thing by most people -ever. People really don't want to live in a society where their government is involved in the sex trade business. It doesn't matter if YOU think having government enrich itself from prostitution and act as pimp peddling the flesh of some citizens to other citizens and guaranteeing it has a stable of "clean" whores is a terrific idea, the vast majority of people in the world would, can and do vigorously disagree. And nothing you could say would change their mind on that. There is nothing you could say that would convince me legalizing prostitution would benefit our society MORE than having it remain illegal. And history has proven I am right on that one -no society has ever benefitted more by legalizing prostitution than they did by making it illegal. In fact, every society that legalized it eventually decided to criminalize it again once the unwanted, unintended and undesirable consequences become intolerable to the majority.

So if society would not receive MORE benefits by legalizing it than they receive by criminalizing it - then what's your point? I don't care if I cannot identify a specific victim in a specific act of prostitution because I already know that no society has flourished or benefitted by legalized prostitution. And therefore absolutely no reason to believe OUR society would. Unless abridging the true human or civil rights of people, if a society has deemed a certain act to be undesirable and unwanted in their society -then they have the right to forbid it. Even if a minority of people disagree. We are not supposed to allow the tyranny and rule by the minority in this country. That is how civil wars usually get started you know.

Legalizing prostitution without government becoming the pimp is not ever a viable option since that only rapidly increases all sorts of other crimes and makes the quality of life for more members of society more difficult and far more dangerous. Which makes the majority in society unhappy and who will respond by quickly make it illegal again. So to legalize prostitution requires government becoming the pimp in order to try and avoid rapidly increasing the rates of other crimes. But pimping off some citizens for the sexual gratification of other citizens, offering up government-endorsed and government-guaranteed whores to other citizens, being a player in the sex trade business and enriching itself from prostitution is NOT considered a proper role of government by the vast majority of people in the world. In fact a better argument could be made that is a government actively involved in the oppression of a certain class of its own citizens. The vast majority in the world don't want their government involved in prostitution on ANY level-except law enforcement.

Since there is no such thing as a civil or human right to prostitute oneself, the majority have the RIGHT to live in a society where that is not allowed. Just as they have the RIGHT to live in a society where murder is forbidden or the selling of body parts is forbidden or the selling of babies is forbidden or allowing your dog to crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up is forbidden -whatever they decide they do not want in their society. All because as long as the TRUE rights of human beings are not being infringed upon, the members of any society have the right to decide the rules and laws they will live by.

Deal with it. When all is said and done, the vast majority of people in the entire world and throughout history have repeatedly and consistently deemed prostitution to be immoral and an activity that is undesirable in society -as is their right. And I see nothing coming from any proponents about why the minority should be allowed to impose their will on the majority against their will and legalize prostitution.

Your response to the entirety of my post was as limp as it gets and amounted to nothing at all.

 

[Montrovant]

frazzled, what about the fact that it is legal to engage in the same sexual acts so long as no money is exchanged? It is not, apparently, sex with multiple partners that is an issue, only doing so for compensation.

As far as the vast majority considering prostitution wrong throughout history, I'm not sure that's true. Some quick searching about the history of prostitution showed a number of instances of legal prostitution by various cultures in the past. In the modern world, I think the vast majority opposes it; that I agree with.

 

[Father Time]

So frazzledgear is saying that what makes thing right or wrong is what society/the people deem right and wrong?

So I guess the people of the Middle East aren't doing anything wrong when they're outlawing Christianity, executing gays and forcing women to cover nearly everything, after all it's what their society is declaring right and wrong who cares what the reasons are.

Also you've yet to prove that legalized prostitution will hurt society, the U.S. still flourished when it had legalized prostitution all you've done is claim you have proof and shown nothing.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Comparing prostitution to murder, assault, and rape makes absolutely no sense. The difference is that the latter 3 are non-consensual forms of aggression against another person, whereas prostitution is a consensual act.

That's it? That's your response to what I wrote? ROFLMAO! I didn't compare prostitution to murder, assault and rape. Or to baby selling. Or the selling of body parts -which I noticed you ignored. What I said was that those things are ALL deemed wrong by society itself. Society is made up of PEOPLE -so it is people who have deemed such acts to be wrong and acts they do NOT want in their society. Just like they have deemed prostitution to be wrong and unwanted in society. It doesn't matter WHY people have deemed any of those things wrong. You only pointed out WHY people might consider murder, rape and assault to be wrong -which we all already know. You also know why society has deemed baby selling and the selling of body parts to be wrong. And you also know why society and the overwhelming vast majority of people in the WORLD have deemed prostitution to be wrong -but want to pretend people have no legitimate justification to do so. I pointed out that they certainly do.

The judgment of what is right and wrong is made by PEOPLE -for whatever reasons they use to do so. The list of reasons why people might consider certain acts to be wrong can be as varied as the number of people being asked the question. The vast majority of people in the WORLD right now and throughout history have deemed exchanging money for sex to be WRONG -for whatever reasons they have. Their reasons are no less legitimate than their reasons for considering murder to be wrong. Even though the reasons they consider murder to be wrong are different from why they consider baby selling to be wrong, which are different from their reasons for finding selling body parts to be wrong, which are different yet again from their reasons for considering prostitution to be wrong - and are still different from their reasons for believing allowing your dog to crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up to be wrong. All of which are still different from considering the desecration of a corpse or the consumption of human flesh to also be wrong. Harm comes in many forms and certain acts may be deemed to harm society itself. Harming society itself is just as legitimate a reason to ban a specific act as banning an act that inflicts physical harm to an individual. No one wants to live in a society plagued by rampant immorality with a government that not only tolerates but aids and abets immoral activities.

History has repeatedly proven that for a society to flourish and continue to exist, it is a critical mass of the MAJORITY that must be satisfied by the conditions within that society. Not the minority. As long as the acts being banned do not involve TRUE civil rights or human rights -then the majority in all societies have the right to decide the laws and rules they want to live by. While all societies ban certain acts like murder, there is a HUGE range of other acts that societies may also LEGITIMATELY ban if the members of that society decide they do not want those activities allowed in THEIR society. And whether you like it or not, one of those acts throughout history and for the vast majority in the world -is prostitution. While forbidding owners to let their dog crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up is much less a universal ban. But both can be legitimately banned because there is no more a "right" to prostitute oneself than there is a "right" to let your dog crap on the sidewalk and not clean it up.

YOU and other pro-legalized prostitution people are actually saying that only certain reasons are legitimate reasons to ban a certain act from society, that it must involve physical harm to another person to be legitimately banned -and I am saying there are all sorts of legitimate reasons to ban certain acts a society has deemed to be undesirable. It isn't just acts that involve direct physical harm to another living person that are not allowed in societies. Everyone understands the idea of "cause and effect" as well as the reality that some acts that may not cause direct physical harm to others do have unwanted and undesirable consequences that harm society itself.

Government as pimp is not considered to be a desirable thing by most people -ever. People really don't want to live in a society where their government is involved in the sex trade business. It doesn't matter if YOU think having government enrich itself from prostitution and act as pimp peddling the flesh of some citizens to other citizens and guaranteeing it has a stable of "clean" whores is a terrific idea, the vast majority of people in the world would, can and do vigorously disagree. And nothing you could say would change their mind on that. There is nothing you could say that would convince me legalizing prostitution would benefit our society MORE than having it remain illegal. And history has proven I am right on that one -no society has ever benefitted more by legalizing prostitution than they did by making it illegal. In fact, every society that legalized it eventually decided to criminalize it again once the unwanted, unintended and undesirable consequences become intolerable to the majority.

So if society would not receive MORE benefits by legalizing it than they receive by criminalizing it - then what's your point? I don't care if I cannot identify a specific victim in a specific act of prostitution because I already know that no society has flourished or benefitted by legalized prostitution. And therefore absolutely no reason to believe OUR society would. Unless abridging the true human or civil rights of people, if a society has deemed a certain act to be undesirable and unwanted in their society -then they have the right to forbid it. Even if a minority of people disagree. We are not supposed to allow the tyranny and rule by the minority in this country. That is how civil wars usually get started you know.

Legalizing prostitution without government becoming the pimp is not ever a viable option since that only rapidly increases all sorts of other crimes and makes the quality of life for more members of society more difficult and far more dangerous. Which makes the majority in society unhappy and who will respond by quickly make it illegal again. So to legalize prostitution requires government becoming the pimp in order to try and avoid rapidly increasing the rates of other crimes. But pimping off some citizens for the sexual gratification of other citizens, offering up government-endorsed and government-guaranteed whores to other citizens, being a player in the sex trade business and enriching itself from prostitution is NOT considered a proper role of government by the vast majority of people in the world. In fact a better argument could be made that is a government actively involved in the oppression of a certain class of its own citizens. The vast majority in the world don't want their government involved in prostitution on ANY level-except law enforcement.

Since there is no such thing as a civil or human right to prostitute oneself, the majority have the RIGHT to live in a society where that is not allowed. Just as they have the RIGHT to live in a society where murder is forbidden or the selling of body parts is forbidden or the selling of babies is forbidden or allowing your dog to crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up is forbidden -whatever they decide they do not want in their society. All because as long as the TRUE rights of human beings are not being infringed upon, the members of any society have the right to decide the rules and laws they will live by.

Deal with it. When all is said and done, the vast majority of people in the entire world and throughout history have repeatedly and consistently deemed prostitution to be immoral and an activity that is undesirable in society -as is their right. And I see nothing coming from any proponents about why the minority should be allowed to impose their will on the majority against their will and legalize prostitution.

Your response to the entirety of my post was as limp as it gets and amounted to nothing at all.

Well I'm sorry I don't have the desire to write out an essay here on the subject, but I think I've made my point throughout the thread. I'm also sorry I haven't read this full post, so I may miss some of your points.

If you believe in the right of self-ownership then you have to accept that some people are going to do things you don't like. If some lady wants to engage in prostitution then it has no effect on your life whatsoever, so what do you care? What does the rest of society care? The fact is that neither you nor the government has the right to tell anyone what they can do with their own body, so long as they're not hurting you or anybody else.

 

[frazzledgear]

frazzled, what about the fact that it is legal to engage in the same sexual acts so long as no money is exchanged? It is not, apparently, sex with multiple partners that is an issue, only doing so for compensation.

As far as the vast majority considering prostitution wrong throughout history, I'm not sure that's true. Some quick searching about the history of prostitution showed a number of instances of legal prostitution by various cultures in the past. In the modern world, I think the vast majority opposes it; that I agree with.

I already pointed out that some past societies had experimented with legalized prostitution -and they ALL either collapsed entirely or decided to criminalize it again after being confronted with the inevitable unwanted consequences.

I don't understand your point about the fact that it is legal to engage in those same sexual acts as long as no money is exchanged. Criminalizing prostitution isn't an attempt to criminalize those sex acts. And I hope you aren't suggesting there is no moral difference between a consensual relationship based on at least a mutual (even if fleeting) attraction or the existence of a relationship -and prostitution. Someone's personal relationship with another person is a personal relationship -period. But prostitution is a business, a line of commerce. It is a specific kind of commerce and business that societies throughout history have consistently deemed to be unwanted in their societies.

The legalization of prostitution has been the exception in human history and the criminalization of prostitution has been the norm. That doesn't mean some societies have not experimented with it -because clearly some have and even some today are doing so. But based on history and the review of past societies that did legalize prostitution - the ultimate outcome of that experiment is already a foregone conclusion. Even in those countries with legalized prostitution there is a growing recognition that it fuels the sex slave trade and that such countries are ending up involved as a significant hub in sex slavery. Selling sex -no matter how it is done, no matter what justification is used to allow it - is really an issue of the subjugation of women that simply reduces women to the sum of their orifices and nothing but a commodity. A commodity that exists for the sole purpose of satisfying men. It is but a short step from legalized prostitution to forced prostitution and you don't have to look very far in any country with legalized prostitution to find evidence that one follows the other very quickly. Legalizing prostitution doesn't rid any society of the street corner prostitute, it doesn't reduce the risk of disease or violence for prostitutes because they still face that with every trick. It only creates a new layer of prostitution and a new layer of sex trade by legalizing it. It just means government wants its cut from the sex trade too as it helps perpetuate and participate in the sex trade and all its ugly consequences.

Again, spreading their legs for a stranger and sucking a stranger's dick, exposing themselves to the risk of disease and violence - is not something little girls hope to be doing to support themselves when they grow up. And what kind of society would even encourage little girls to consider it, much less turn around and put its stamp of approval on it by legalizing it? Historically true and still true to this day, prostitution is the occupation of financially desperate women with low self esteem and little education who see it as their most realistic means of support given their limitations. I don't want a government that helps pimp these desperate women and I don't want a society that says that is the best these women should hope for themselves and legalizing it says just that. Like most people I don't want to live in a society where government participates in the sex trade, I don't want a society that puts its stamp of approval on an act the overwhelming majority of people agree is immoral. I want a society that works to open other doors for such women by expanding their possibilities to find other legitimate means of support - ones that are far less destructive to the body and soul.

Hard to believe that anyone or any nation that claims to be enlightened would even support legalized prostitution frankly. It is a dismal, depressing, door slamming and soul destroying business that traps women into a life of subjugation and constant exposure to the risk of disease, unwanted pregnancy and violence with every trick. That is true no matter where that trick is performed and no matter whether government or some dude is acting as their pimp. People are fully justified in deciding they do not want it in their society.

 

[Father Time]

frazzled, what about the fact that it is legal to engage in the same sexual acts so long as no money is exchanged? It is not, apparently, sex with multiple partners that is an issue, only doing so for compensation.

As far as the vast majority considering prostitution wrong throughout history, I'm not sure that's true. Some quick searching about the history of prostitution showed a number of instances of legal prostitution by various cultures in the past. In the modern world, I think the vast majority opposes it; that I agree with.

I already pointed out that some past societies had experimented with legalized prostitution -and they ALL either collapsed entirely or decided to criminalize it again after being confronted with the inevitable unwanted consequences.

Societies can collapse for all sorts of reasons, what proof is there that legalized prostitution led to that collapse?

I don't understand your point about the fact that it is legal to engage in those same sexual acts as long as no money is exchanged. Criminalizing prostitution isn't an attempt to criminalize those sex acts. And I hope you aren't suggesting there is no moral difference between a consensual relationship based on at least a mutual (even if fleeting) attraction or the existence of a relationship -and prostitution.

No but sex with strangers for free is perfectly legal so...

The legalization of prostitution has been the exception in human history and the criminalization of prostitution has been the norm. That doesn't mean some societies have not experimented with it -because clearly some have and even some today are doing so. But based on history and the review of past societies that did legalize prostitution - the ultimate outcome of that experiment is already a foregone conclusion. Even in those countries with legalized prostitution there is a growing recognition that it fuels the sex slave trade and that such countries are ending up involved as a significant hub in sex slavery. Selling sex -no matter how it is done, no matter what justification is used to allow it - is really an issue of the subjugation of women that simply reduces women to the sum of their orifices and nothing but a commodity.

You do know that men can be prostitutes too right?

A commodity that exists for the sole purpose of satisfying men. It is but a short step from legalized prostitution to forced prostitution and you don't have to look very far in any country with legalized prostitution to find evidence that one follows the other very quickly.

Show me the evidence.

Legalizing prostitution doesn't rid any society of the street corner prostitute, it doesn't reduce the risk of disease or violence for prostitutes because they still face that with every trick.

Yes it will, if a prostitute gets raped or beaten she could go to the police under legalized prostitution but if it's criminalized she can't and the violent johns know that.

Again, spreading their legs for a stranger and sucking a stranger's dick, exposing themselves to the risk of disease and violence - is not something little girls hope to be doing to support themselves when they grow up. And what kind of society would even encourage little girls to consider it, much less turn around and put its stamp of approval on it by legalizing it? Historically true and still true to this day, prostitution is the occupation of financially desperate women with low self esteem and little education who see it as their most realistic means of support given their limitations. I don't want a government that helps pimp these desperate women and I don't want a society that says that is the best these women should hope for themselves and legalizing it says just that.

And I don't want the government we have that arrests these desperate women because they felt prostitution was the only way to maintain themselves financially. The fact that government adds costs to prostitution and yet some women still do it tells me there will always be women desperate or crazy enough to decide to do it so I see little reason to arrest them for it.

Like most people I don't want to live in a society where government participates in the sex trade, I don't want a society that puts its stamp of approval on an act the overwhelming majority of people agree is immoral.

There's a difference between stamp of approval and legalizing it. Look at some of the crazy groups like the WBC, they say all sorts of stupid crap, nobody agrees with them and yet we give them the right to say those horrible things.

I want a society that works to open other doors for such women by expanding their possibilities to find other legitimate means of support - ones that are far less destructive to the body and soul.

Some will still choose prostitution

Hard to believe that anyone or any nation that claims to be enlightened would even support legalized prostitution frankly. It is a dismal, depressing, door slamming and soul destroying business that traps women into a life of subjugation and constant exposure to the risk of disease, unwanted pregnancy and violence with every trick. That is true no matter where that trick is performed and no matter whether government or some dude is acting as their pimp. People are fully justified in deciding they do not want it in their society.

It only gets worse if it's criminalized.

 

[frazzledgear]

It only gets worse if it's criminalized.

Let's cut to the chase on this one, ok? Where is YOUR proof that ANY crime becomes worse and more prevalent in society by making it a crime? That one is a real hoot. What kind of mental gymnastics did it take to come up with that one? I guess that means all societies, if they REALLY want to reduce all crimes -should just legalize them all! Oh sure, our murder rates got worse by making it illegal, right? And MORE people want to survive by being paid whores if doing so is made illegal, right? ROFLMAO! Get real. Laws are not created for people who are not going to engage in the banned act whether it is legal or not. Laws are created for the people who would engage in it were it not for the fact it was illegal. It is a hard fact that some people will still commit certain acts even if made illegal. It is also a known fact that the only thing keeping some people from committing those acts is the fact it is illegal. It is only the fear of being caught and punished that prevents them from committing those acts -and it is EXACTLY those people for whom laws are created in the first place. Not those who would never commit them whether legal or not. So making those acts illegal REDUCED the number of those acts -not increased them. Which is why societies that do not want certain acts committed in their society -make them ILLEGAL -not legal. Catching on to the logic there yet?

Did making it illegal in NYC to allow owners to let their dogs crap on the sidewalk without cleaning it up result in MORE dog shit on the sidewalks or less? And that is a less serious offense than prostitution in NYC. Think there are more dogs or prostitutes in NYC? Hint: there were more than 285,000 dogs in Manhattan alone -in 2005. More than a quarter of a million dogs just in one borough. All of which need to crap regularly -with the vast majority doing it outside. The number of prostitutes in the entire country is estimated to be just over one million. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that legalizing prostitution would actually reduce that number? Gee, it sure didn't work out that way in Denmark or Hong Kong! LOL In fact, Denmark is trying to reduce the number of their prostitutes by forbidding the most financially desperate of women to be prostitutes at all! Only women for whom prostitution doesn't represent the bulk of their income are allowed to be prostitutes now! WTF? Wasn't the whole point of legalizing it to help those very women? Only to STILL be facing the same criminal charges they were all along. LOL So what was the real point of legalizing it?

And the REAL question is -who REALLY benefitted by it? Because it sure wasn't the desperate people proponents of legalized prostitution in Denmark said would benefit when they convinced the people to turn their government into a pimp! Legalizing prostitution was done to benefit the CUSTOMER only -who are primarily MEN. With government guaranteeing prime choice product free from disease -but without EVER promising those women their johns are free from disease. Those women who were financially desperate in the first place -still are. The very same women still hooking illegally on street corners in Denmark and still risking arrest and punishment. Only now the government-endorsed hookers are cutting into their business and making it even more difficult for them.

Rewarding undesirable behavior results in getting MORE of it. Basic psychology. Legalizing prostitution will result in having MORE prostitutes -and all the unwanted, undesirable consequences that come with it along with all the ugly consequences of having a government as pimp and a player in the sex trade business.

You obviously don't have kids - because you would end up in a mental institution if you believed you could get them to stop any bad behavior by REWARDING it -because the dramatic increase in their bad behavior would drive you nuts!

As for past societies that had legalized prostitution and the influence it had on their society -take some college level world history classes. I certainly cannot sum up in a few paragraphs what the study of past civilizations has shown and the contributing decisions that ultimately led to their collapse or decision to change course. But suffice it to say that societies that adopted, encouraged or legalized activities the majority of people in the world even then considered to be immoral -didn't end up being very successful for very long once they did adopt it -or have a long lifespan if they did not change course.

 

[frazzledgear]

So frazzledgear is saying that what makes thing right or wrong is what society/the people deem right and wrong?

So I guess the people of the Middle East aren't doing anything wrong when they're outlawing Christianity, executing gays and forcing women to cover nearly everything, after all it's what their society is declaring right and wrong who cares what the reasons are.

Also you've yet to prove that legalized prostitution will hurt society, the U.S. still flourished when it had legalized prostitution all you've done is claim you have proof and shown nothing.

I guess you just ignored the part where I said that unless it involved infringing on the civil or human rights of others, societies had the right to decide what laws and rules they would live by, huh? Executing gays would certainly come under a human rights violation -don't ya think? And of course when I said societies had the right to decide what rules they wanted to live by -that assumes the members of that society are in the position to make that determination. Which is NEVER true in a totalitarian state.

For those who want to legalize a previously illegal activity -it is incumbent upon YOU to prove that legalizing it would result in MORE benefit to society than it receives by keeping it illegal. Trying to shift the burden to me about why it should REMAIN illegal is the tactic of the intellectually dishonest. But I have already made my case about why people are justified in not wanting to legalize prostitution. You have yet to make any case at all for the phony bullshit that legalizing it would result in more benefit to society than it receives by keeping it illegal. And you never will.

 

[Father Time]

Apparently frazzledgear doesn't consider the right to do with your body as you please a civil or human right. So I guess according to her laws that ban tattoos, piercings, razors etc. would be perfectly OK if society ever thought so, what a damn shame.

Oh and I was saying that criminalizing prostitution only results in worsened conditions for prostitutes, but if you want to know how it benefits society, it would mean more taxable money, less money into organized crime, and if we regulate condoms less spread of STDs.

Now come up with a good reason for why it should remain illegal. Also don't assume that just because something is illegal or has been illegal for a while, that it was made illegal for a good reason.

And speaking of intellectual dishonesty it's not my job to back up YOUR claims, that will be YOUR job. Although you've still have yet to prove your other claims such that legalizing it will increase the rate of crime. I'd love to see the proof for that one.