What is school for?

[Annie]

Interesting, the great Agna, aka as the great troller, cannot answer either EZ or myself. But he can neg rep with the best of the trolls. Both of us have taken serious hits from him. Would be good if some could help us out.

Rep whoring in process...

You haven't asked any unanswered questions.

right. Seriously, I do understand now why I was advised to ignore you.

 

[Agnapostate]

right. Seriously, I do understand now why I was advised to ignore you.

Ask me a question!

 

[random3434]

No, you try to explain to me how the education of our youth is going to be paid for in your "Utopian" school society. Since educators don't know Jack shit about teaching, when 'your kind' take over our schools, how will you pay for it? Can you answer a question on your own without citing something written by someone else for once?

Why would a change in funding be necessary? To the extent that schools themselves would be necessary, (and I'm a great advocate of unschooling, obviously, having left the authoritarian school system behind two years early), I don't see any reason why they couldn't subsist on public funding.

But if all the educators are so bad,who are going to teach all these children? How will the teachers get trained? Who pays for that training of teaching the teachers how to teach this new way of utopian education? If the government is still funding the schools, that's not the libertarian way now, is it?

 

[Agnapostate]

But if all the educators are so bad,who are going to teach all these children? How will the teachers get trained? Who pays for that training of teaching the teachers how to teach this new way of utopian education? If the government is still funding the schools, that's not the libertarian way now, is it?

Ah, so you've taken "libertarian" to mean some relation to funding. Though this is a consequence of capitalists' obfuscation of political economy, I would have thought that you'd have considered my reference to Bowles and Gintis and my critique of schools as a coercive component of the capitalist mode of production to understand this issue properly.

But no, that's not an accurate understanding of a libertarian educational system. To understand my meaning, refer to Summerhill School, in which the school functions as a democratic community managed based on consensus from students.

 

[random3434]

But if all the educators are so bad,who are going to teach all these children? How will the teachers get trained? Who pays for that training of teaching the teachers how to teach this new way of utopian education? If the government is still funding the schools, that's not the libertarian way now, is it?

Ah, so you've taken "libertarian" to mean some relation to funding. Though this is a consequence of capitalists' obfuscation of political economy, I would have thought that you'd have considered my reference to Bowles and Gintis and my critique of schools as a coercive component of the capitalist mode of production to understand this issue properly.

But no, that's not an accurate understanding of a libertarian educational system. To understand my meaning, refer to Summerhill School, in which the school functions as a democratic community managed based on consensus from students.

No, you brought up the word Libertarian, along with Marxist, relating to education.

You still are avoiding my questions though, nice try.

 

[Agnapostate]

No, you brought up the word Libertarian, along with Marxist, relating to education.

You still are avoiding my questions though, nice try.

I did not bring up the word Libertarian in relation to this topic, as that would imply association with the U.S. Libertarian Party. The fact that you mistakenly associate libertarianism with capitalism is not my fault. I did point out Bowles's and Gintis's Marxist perspective on education as a component of the capitalist mode of production, as it prepares students for a low position in a hierarchical chain of command, and no one has addressed that comment.

You asked about funding. Of course, I favor the abolition of money and wages, so that would eventually be a nonissue, but I replied that public schooling could be largely scaled back in favor of unschooling and self-directed learning, but that whatever democratic schools did exist could be funded through public monies. What question have I not answered satisfactorily?

 

[random3434]

No, you brought up the word Libertarian, along with Marxist, relating to education.

You still are avoiding my questions though, nice try.

I did not bring up the word Libertarian in relation to this topic, as that would imply association with the U.S. Libertarian Party. The fact that you mistakenly associate libertarianism with capitalism is not my fault. I did point out Bowles's and Gintis's Marxist perspective on education as a component of the capitalist mode of production, as it prepares students for a low position in a hierarchical chain of command, and no one has addressed that comment.

You asked about funding. Of course, I favor the abolition of money and wages, so that would eventually be a nonissue, but I replied that public schooling could be largely scaled back in favor of unschooling and self-directed learning, but that whatever democratic schools did exist could be funded through public monies. What question have I not answered satisfactorily?

And who pray tell, is teaching these people! At what point in their lives do they "self-teach" themselves? Who is teaching them to do that? Who taught you how to eat, and wipe, and read, and write? You telling me you taught yourself all of that? Also,,,,you favor the abolition of money and wages. Cool, so we are all just sitting around our free homes, not working or going to school, eating our free food, self-educating ourselves.


Excellent!

 

[Amanda]

... in which the school functions as a democratic community managed based on consensus from students.

Consensus from students? That will never do!

 

[Anguille]

Oh goodie, I just got neg repped from agnaperv for this post!

When you offer intelligent commentary, you'll receive equivalent replies. You're apparently incapable of doing so. Learn this early: An analysis such as the following one, for instance, is far above your little head.

It's a traditional authoritarian view

Agna, who is being authoritarian now?

 

[Agnapostate]

And who pray tell, is teaching these people! At what point in their lives do they "self-teach" themselves? Who is teaching them to do that? Who taught you how to eat, and wipe, and read, and write? You telling me you taught yourself all of that?

My mother taught me to read and write in Spanish, but I taught myself to read and write in English. But that matter is irrelevant to this discussion. My reference to self-directed learning is a reference to a tenet of autodidactism. I advocate for a framework in which children and youth can freely access educational resources without any form of coercion or force. I also advocate that they adopt a form of self-management in schools, and that schools be democratically governed by their students in the manner that Summerhill is operated. I would recommend that you have a look at John Holt's [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Children-Fail-Classics-Child-Development/dp/0201484021/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233795941&sr=1-1"]How Children Fail[/ame].

Also,,,,you favor the abolition of money and wages. Cool, so we are all just sitting around our free homes, not working or going to school, eating our free food, self-educating ourselves.

Excellent!

I can't imagine where you formulated ideas such as those, though they indicate that you're unfamiliar with political economy. Regardless, this is an unrelated topic. Study anarchist communism if you're genuinely interested in it.

 

[Said1]

I went to a school like that. The teacher's main purpose was to keep us from doing drugs and fighting. I only got six credits that year.

 

[Agnapostate]

I went to a school like that. The teacher's main purpose was to keep us from doing drugs and fighting. I only got six credits that year.

You went to a democratically managed school? Or did you instead go to a continuation school?

 

[Said1]

I went to a school like that. The teacher's main purpose was to keep us from doing drugs and fighting. I only got six credits that year.

You went to a democratically managed school? Or did you instead go to a continuation school?

Within reason, yes. The school was able to operate like this because there was never more than 50 students with 10 left at the end of the year. It was designed for self-education, with teachers there to provide help, but not instruction or structure. You did have to sign a contract upon acceptance committing to one lesson a week. There were other stipulations, but that's the only one that stands out as being heavy handed.

We also had to raise money for most of our trips, so we decided where and when.

 

[Agnapostate]

That doesn't sound pleasant. I wish I could have gone to a democratically managed school, but I had to settle for a continuation school...at least I could get about 25 credits a month.

 

[Said1]

That doesn't sound pleasant, actually.

It wasn't. It primarily used as a dumping ground for the worst students in the city. Most of them had some really serious problems and the drama of it all was very distracting.

I should say I attended another similar program at the high school I went to that was much better and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have graduated.

 

[Anguille]

That doesn't sound pleasant, actually.

It wasn't. It primarily used as a dumping ground for the worst students in the city. Most of them had some really serious problems and the drama of it all was very distracting.

I should say I attended another similar program at the high school I went to that was much better and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have graduated.

I think that the school, the teachers, the administrators and the other students matter just as much as the method of teaching used. That was my experience.

 

[Annie]

That doesn't sound pleasant, actually.

It wasn't. It primarily used as a dumping ground for the worst students in the city. Most of them had some really serious problems and the drama of it all was very distracting.

I should say I attended another similar program at the high school I went to that was much better and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have graduated.

I think that the school, the teachers, the administrators and the other students matter just as much as the method of teaching used. That was my experience.

Indeed. Method has little to nothing to do with it. It's the mix of students, staff, and tone. Principals can screw it up or help it along, but their input is negligible.

 

[Said1]

That doesn't sound pleasant, actually.

It wasn't. It primarily used as a dumping ground for the worst students in the city. Most of them had some really serious problems and the drama of it all was very distracting.

I should say I attended another similar program at the high school I went to that was much better and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have graduated.

I think that the school, the teachers, the administrators and the other students matter just as much as the method of teaching used. That was my experience.

It was modeled in the same manner as the school you inked, only the worst students attended. I went because the idea of sleeping when I was tired was appealing and it was a way to get out of repeating grade 8.

How does the Summerhill adhere to your other link on Autodidacticism?

 

[Anguille]

It wasn't. It primarily used as a dumping ground for the worst students in the city. Most of them had some really serious problems and the drama of it all was very distracting.

I should say I attended another similar program at the high school I went to that was much better and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have graduated.

I think that the school, the teachers, the administrators and the other students matter just as much as the method of teaching used. That was my experience.

Indeed. Method has little to nothing to do with it. It's the mix of students, staff, and tone. Principals can screw it up or help it along, but their input is negligible.

I know little about education but I think that not all methods would be suited to all students or all teachers so though method matters, nor so much, like you say. Also, kids are flexible, even in the most rigid authoritarian classes, a kid who wants to learn will adapt. Not that I favor that kind of class at all, but I just want to say that learning is a two way thing. I learned much of what I know on my own and in college. Elementary school was crucial. Most of middle and high school was a waste, even detrimental to me but certain classes in high school stood out and I really learned more than I gave them credit for at the time. Also, although my mother taught me to read at 3 she had no luck with my brother. It wasn't till 3rd grade that his teacher got him reading. He ended up fine of course, now he outreads me, just had a slow start.

Teachers and school are expected to be perfect and provide everything. If you think like that, you are sure to lose out on what they do have to offer.

 

[Annie]

I think that the school, the teachers, the administrators and the other students matter just as much as the method of teaching used. That was my experience.

Indeed. Method has little to nothing to do with it. It's the mix of students, staff, and tone. Principals can screw it up or help it along, but their input is negligible.

I know little about education but I think that not all methods would be suited to all students or all teachers so though method matters, nor so much, like you say. Also, kids are flexible, even in the most rigid authoritarian classes, a kid who wants to learn will adapt. Not that I favor that kind of class at all, but I just want to say that learning is a two way thing. I learned much of what I know on my own and in college. Elementary school was crucial. Most of middle and high school was a waste, even detrimental to me but certain classes in high school stood out and I really learned more than I gave them credit for at the time. Also, although my mother taught me to read at 3 she had no luck with my brother. It wasn't till 3rd grade that his teacher got him reading. He ended up fine of course, now he outreads me, just had a slow start.

Teachers and school are expected to be perfect and provide everything. If you think like that, you are sure to lose out on what they do have to offer.

You said a mouthful there! No school is perfect for all children. I will say that my school has successfully dealt and helped many children I didn't think belonged there. Then there were more than a couple I was right about, where we really are liable. So far, none have come back and sued.

The positive: A girl kid comes into our school in 6th grade, her brother in 4th. Her mom is like, 'she's been in special ed from 2nd grade, I think she had problems, but not low, as they say."

"We'll do our best, but she needs to get in early for help and do all homework." She does. In 8th grade she takes the entrance exams for public high school. The recommend AP: English, History, Science. The mom is like, "no, she can't do that." The other middle school teachers agree. I don't. She works her butt off and while it takes her awhile to 'get it,' she does. I tell mom, "Let''s ask ****, what does she want? There will be mega reading and responses." Ask her, she says, "I'd like to try, just don't know I can do all that." I ask her,"Which would you like to try?" Her response, "All of them." Sold her mom. She can be move down in first 3 weeks. She knows that, as does mom. My guess, she'll rise to situation.