What is school for?

[Agnapostate]

Come now, is that really the best you can do?

 

[Agnapostate]

Actually, after some consideration, it may be best to start out with John Taylor Gatto's [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487/ref=pd_cp_b_2?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1591810094&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0CNV5D9VW5DG30AKXF3M"]Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling[/ame].

This radical treatise on public education has been a New Society Publishers' bestseller for 10 years! Thirty years of award-winning teaching in New York City's public schools led John Gatto to the sad conclusion that compulsory governmental schooling does little but teach young people to follow orders as cogs in the industrial machine. In celebration of the ten-year anniversary of Dumbing Us Down and to keep this classic current, we are renewing the cover art, adding new material about John and the impact of the book, and a new Foreword.

Youth who wish to attest to the authoritarian and coercive conditions of school are largely ignored by "educators" with their own agendas, which is why a work from an award winning teacher is especially potent.

 

[Amanda]

Actually, after some consideration, it may be best to start out with John Taylor Gatto's Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling.

This radical treatise on public education has been a New Society Publishers' bestseller for 10 years! Thirty years of award-winning teaching in New York City's public schools led John Gatto to the sad conclusion that compulsory governmental schooling does little but teach young people to follow orders as cogs in the industrial machine. In celebration of the ten-year anniversary of Dumbing Us Down and to keep this classic current, we are renewing the cover art, adding new material about John and the impact of the book, and a new Foreword.

Youth who wish to attest to the authoritarian and coercive conditions of school are largely ignored by "educators" with their own agendas, which is why a work from an award winning teacher is especially potent.

I think I mentioned it in a PM before Agna, but I've heard Mr Gatto speak and got a chance to talk with him personally. He's very smart and really knows his stuff, I would whole heartedly recommend anything he's written.

 

[Red Dawn]

I read an interesting blog post by Seth Godin, who some of you may know for his work in marketing, particularly as it relates to new media, web 2.0, etc. Anyway, here was his list of things school is for. I thought it might make an interesting discussion. I'm sure some of you will have some additional ideas or take exception to some of these.

I put in bold the ones I feel are especially true in how schools are run. Not necessarily how they should be run, but how I felt they were being run when I was there.


Become an informed citizen
Be able to read for pleasure
Be trained in the rudimentary skills necessary for employment
Do well on standardized tests
Homogenize society, at least a bit
Pasteurize out the dangerous ideas
Give kids something to do while parents work
Teach future citizens how to conform
Teach future consumers how to desire
Build a social fabric
Create leaders who help us compete on a world stage
Generate future scientists who will advance medicine and technology
Learn for the sake of learning
Help people become interesting and productive
Defang the proletariat
Establish a floor below which a typical person is unlikely to fall
Find and celebrate prodigies, geniuses and the gifted
Make sure kids learn to exercise, eat right and avoid common health problems
Teach future citizens to obey authority
Teach future employees to do the same
Increase appreciation for art and culture
Teach creativity and problem solving
Minimize public spelling mistakes
Increase emotional intelligence
Decrease crime by teaching civics and ethics
Increase understanding of a life well lived
Make sure the sports teams have enough players

So, what do you think?

I think its a traditional "conservative" view of education. And I don't mean that as a slam on republicans. This is beyond petty, provincial politics. This is a world view that education is merely a tool to make a good work force and a civil and docile citizenry. It's Orewllian, at a certain level.

I think the traditional liberal view of education is one more of self enlightenment and fullfillment. Teaching "conformity" is certainly not a liberal value. "Pasturizing" dangerous ideas is totally Orwellian, and not within the enlightened and liberal view of education.

 

[Agnapostate]

It's a traditional authoritarian view, and thus can be a component of either conventional political liberalism or conservatism. A libertarian perspective is necessary to identify the coercive and authoritarian nature of modern American "education" and the deleterious effects that it passes on to students. Even a Marxist perspective can shed light on the reality of the school system as a component of the subordination of labor under capital.

Hence, I would recommend one more book, namely Samuel Bowles's and Herbert Gintis's [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Schooling-Capitalist-America-Educational-Contradictions/dp/0465097189/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233781241&sr=1-1"]Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic Life [/ame]. This book examines the nature in which the hierarchical framework of education establishes a basis for the subordination of the worker under the employer and the more general trend of the subordination of labor under capital in a capitalist economy.

 

[random3434]

I'll make sure to let all my first, second and third grade special needs kids that education is bad. God forbid people be for public schools. Never mind that I'm teaching them to read, even though some are way below grade level, and math, so they can someday (hopefully) move onto having their own checking account as they get older.


Yep, damn government schools. When I go back to work next Monday I'll tell them they don't need to come to school anymore, because according to some of you, the teachers are worthless, and so are the schools.

Oh goodie, I just got neg repped from agnaperv for this post!

 

[Agnapostate]

Oh goodie, I just got neg repped from agnaperv for this post!

When you offer intelligent commentary, you'll receive equivalent replies. You're apparently incapable of doing so. Learn this early: An analysis such as the following one, for instance, is far above your little head.

It's a traditional authoritarian view, and thus can be a component of either conventional political liberalism or conservatism. A libertarian perspective is necessary to identify the coercive and authoritarian nature of modern American "education" and the deleterious effects that it passes on to students. Even a Marxist perspective can shed light on the reality of the school system as a component of the subordination of labor under capital.

Hence, I would recommend one more book, namely Samuel Bowles's and Herbert Gintis's Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic Life . This book examines the nature in which the hierarchical framework of education establishes a basis for the subordination of the worker under the employer and the more general trend of the subordination of labor under capital in a capitalist economy.

 

[random3434]

Oh goodie, I just got neg repped from agnaperv for this post!

When you offer intelligent commentary, you'll receive equivalent replies. You're apparently incapable of doing so. Learn this early: An analysis such as the following one, for instance, is far above your little head.

It's a traditional authoritarian view, and thus can be a component of either conventional political liberalism or conservatism. A libertarian perspective is necessary to identify the coercive and authoritarian nature of modern American "education" and the deleterious effects that it passes on to students. Even a Marxist perspective can shed light on the reality of the school system as a component of the subordination of labor under capital.

Hence, I would recommend one more book, namely Samuel Bowles's and Herbert Gintis's Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic Life . This book examines the nature in which the hierarchical framework of education establishes a basis for the subordination of the worker under the employer and the more general trend of the subordination of labor under capital in a capitalist economy.

My mission in life is to get your approval agnaperv.



What is your great idea to educate America's children? Who is going to pay for it all?

 

[Agnapostate]

[My mission in life is to get your approval agnaperv.

What is your great idea to educate America's children? Who is going to pay for it all?

Perv? I'm thinking the perv is yourself, dear, obsessed with "perversion" as you are...

I've already identified several problems with conventional education in this thread, as well as several viable alternatives that can be sought. Read the entire thread, and see the recommended titles that I posted.

 

[random3434]

[My mission in life is to get your approval agnaperv.

What is your great idea to educate America's children? Who is going to pay for it all?

I've already identified several problems with conventional education in this thread, as well as several viable alternatives that can be sought. Read the entire thread, and see the recommended titles that I posted.

So, I take it you can't answer the question.

Who is going to pay for your "Brave New World" of educating America's youth?

 

[Agnapostate]

So, I take it you can't answer the question.

Who is going to pay for your "Brave New World" of educating America's youth?

I've already said that funding is irrelevant, and that there is little distinction between private and public schooling inasmuch as they implement the same authoritarian models.

Try to keep up.

 

[Annie]

I read an interesting blog post by Seth Godin, who some of you may know for his work in marketing, particularly as it relates to new media, web 2.0, etc. Anyway, here was his list of things school is for. I thought it might make an interesting discussion. I'm sure some of you will have some additional ideas or take exception to some of these.

I put in bold the ones I feel are especially true in how schools are run. Not necessarily how they should be run, but how I felt they were being run when I was there.


Become an informed citizen
Be able to read for pleasure
Be trained in the rudimentary skills necessary for employment
Do well on standardized tests
Homogenize society, at least a bit
Pasteurize out the dangerous ideas
Give kids something to do while parents work
Teach future citizens how to conform
Teach future consumers how to desire
Build a social fabric
Create leaders who help us compete on a world stage
Generate future scientists who will advance medicine and technology
Learn for the sake of learning
Help people become interesting and productive
Defang the proletariat
Establish a floor below which a typical person is unlikely to fall
Find and celebrate prodigies, geniuses and the gifted
Make sure kids learn to exercise, eat right and avoid common health problems
Teach future citizens to obey authority
Teach future employees to do the same
Increase appreciation for art and culture
Teach creativity and problem solving
Minimize public spelling mistakes
Increase emotional intelligence
Decrease crime by teaching civics and ethics
Increase understanding of a life well lived
Make sure the sports teams have enough players

So, what do you think?

Amanda, I think you are addressing high school, but much of what you post could apply to middle school. I've never taught to any test, nor do I intend to.

I teach to what I think middle school students should know:

1. ancient history
2. legacies of #1
3. Founder's thinking and influence
4. Framer's thinking and influence
5. What occurs after 3 & 4.

Agna just negged repped me for this post. Anyone else understand why? He didn't explain in his comments.

 

[Agnapostate]

Hit the wrong one. Go to the next one.

 

[Annie]

Hit the wrong one. Go to the next one.

"L"

 

[random3434]

So, I take it you can't answer the question.

Who is going to pay for your "Brave New World" of educating America's youth?

I've already said that funding is irrelevant, and that there is little distinction between private and public schooling inasmuch as they implement the same authoritarian models.

Try to keep up.

No, you try to explain to me how the education of our youth is going to be paid for in your "Utopian" school society. Since educators don't know Jack shit about teaching, when 'your kind' take over our schools, how will you pay for it? Can you answer a question on your own without citing something written by someone else for once?

 

[Agnapostate]

Hit the wrong one. Go to the next one.

"L"

My heart lies in tatters at the floor. How will I move on?

Oh, and careful when you're posting that image. Slowbum might think it's a Hustler centerfold.

 

[random3434]

Hit the wrong one. Go to the next one.

"L"

Don't post her pic around him Annie!

 

[Annie]

Interesting, the great Agna, aka as the great troller, cannot answer either EZ or myself. But he can neg rep with the best of the trolls. Both of us have taken serious hits from him. Would be good if some could help us out.

Rep whoring in process...

 

[Agnapostate]

No, you try to explain to me how the education of our youth is going to be paid for in your "Utopian" school society. Since educators don't know Jack shit about teaching, when 'your kind' take over our schools, how will you pay for it? Can you answer a question on your own without citing something written by someone else for once?

Why would a change in funding be necessary? To the extent that schools themselves would be necessary, (and I'm a great advocate of unschooling, obviously, having left the authoritarian school system behind two years early), I don't see any reason why they couldn't subsist on public funding.

 

[Agnapostate]

Interesting, the great Agna, aka as the great troller, cannot answer either EZ or myself. But he can neg rep with the best of the trolls. Both of us have taken serious hits from him. Would be good if some could help us out.

Rep whoring in process...

You haven't asked any unanswered questions.