What if the Confederacy had been allowed to secede peacefully?

[gipper]

Imo, the only chance for some political compromise really passed with Buchanan. The South believed they'd never see a friendly potus and have senate majority again.

I do not believe that. The entire western world eliminated slavery peacefully, except the USA. Now how the hell does that happen? In fact, slavery was outlawed in several Northern states a few years before the Civil War and no war resulted.

The fact is the war WAS NEVER ABOUT SLAVERY. It was about POWER AND WEALTH...and centralizing it in Washington DC under the total and complete authority of the Republican Party.

There were terrible extremists on both sides who desired war. Had Lincoln been a real leader and statesman in the mold of Jefferson, he would have sought a compromise. Lincoln NEVER sought a compromise. He wanted war and he got it.

His philosophy can be summed simply as "Pay up or die."

And you see, I don't think Lincoln did want war. It is precisely because he saw himself as a representative of the people and not a dictator that he refused to do anything about slavery, a constitutional reality, even though opposed it personally. He saw his role as one to find ways to compromise being opposing factions in the country.

He was a segregationist, however, and did not want all the southern black people to flee north. And it was that which prompted the Emancipation Proclamation after the war was already underway.

I know that isn't the romantic version of history, but I do believe it is the accurate one.

But all that is sort of beside the point. The interesting component of the OP is how the two countries might have gotten along just fine side by side if Lincoln and the Union Congress had chosen to allow the secession rather than try to forcibly reverse it.

Lincoln did not WANT war...agreed, but he was fully prepared to prosecute a war against fellow Americans (and he approved of TOTAL war methods against Americans, killing over 50k civilians and destroying enormous amounts of private property) to impose his will. Completely in contradiction to Jeffersonian principles, but very much in line with Hamiltonian principles. He was a statist first and foremost....not unlike most of our recent presidents and certainly very much like the current occupant.

He also absolutely refused to compromise or negotiate with the South. His bastardized view of the Constitution, which he repeatedly breached, while claiming to abide by it, allowed him to wrongly believe the states did not have the right to secede.

Lincoln, like many in the North and South, thought the war would be over in weeks or a few months. When it dragged on, he waged total war on fellow Americans.

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

 

[PrometheusBound]

As long as they gave up claims to the West and concentrated on annexing northern Mexico and the islands of the Caribbean. The slaves would probably have been turned into non-unionized working class, just like most of the Whites up North. Criminals would have been lynched, completely avoiding what has happened in our cities today.

 

[Foxfyre]

I do not believe that. The entire western world eliminated slavery peacefully, except the USA. Now how the hell does that happen? In fact, slavery was outlawed in several Northern states a few years before the Civil War and no war resulted.

The fact is the war WAS NEVER ABOUT SLAVERY. It was about POWER AND WEALTH...and centralizing it in Washington DC under the total and complete authority of the Republican Party.

There were terrible extremists on both sides who desired war. Had Lincoln been a real leader and statesman in the mold of Jefferson, he would have sought a compromise. Lincoln NEVER sought a compromise. He wanted war and he got it.

His philosophy can be summed simply as "Pay up or die."

And you see, I don't think Lincoln did want war. It is precisely because he saw himself as a representative of the people and not a dictator that he refused to do anything about slavery, a constitutional reality, even though opposed it personally. He saw his role as one to find ways to compromise being opposing factions in the country.

He was a segregationist, however, and did not want all the southern black people to flee north. And it was that which prompted the Emancipation Proclamation after the war was already underway.

I know that isn't the romantic version of history, but I do believe it is the accurate one.

But all that is sort of beside the point. The interesting component of the OP is how the two countries might have gotten along just fine side by side if Lincoln and the Union Congress had chosen to allow the secession rather than try to forcibly reverse it.

Lincoln did not WANT war...agreed, but he was fully prepared to prosecute a war against fellow Americans (and he approved of TOTAL war methods against Americans, killing over 50k civilians and destroying enormous amounts of private property) to impose his will. Completely in contradiction to Jeffersonian principles, but very much in line with Hamiltonian principles. He was a statist first and foremost....not unlike most of our recent presidents and certainly very much like the current occupant.

He also absolutely refused to compromise or negotiate with the South. His bastardized view of the Constitution, which he repeatedly breached, while claiming to abide by it, allowed him to wrongly believe the states did not have the right to secede.

Lincoln, like many in the North and South, thought the war would be over in weeks or a few months. When it dragged on, he waged total war on fellow Americans.

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

I'm sorry but I just can't see him as the despicable character that you seem to assign to him. He opposed slavery but he also opposed inteference in states' rights. Many close to him argued that he should just allow the southern states to secede without interference, but Lincoln could not bring himself to do that. He was without any precedent to guide him and he was without the benefit of hindsight that we all have.

But the bottom line is, Lincoln consented to war to preserve the union. The abolishment of slavery became a methodology and consequence of that, and not the reason for it.

Sojourner Truth, in October 1864, told President Lincoln that he was the first American President to help American Negros. President Lincoln responded: "And the only one who ever had such opportunity. Had our friends in the South behaved themselves, I could have done nothing whatever."

 

[RKMBrown]

And you see, I don't think Lincoln did want war. It is precisely because he saw himself as a representative of the people and not a dictator that he refused to do anything about slavery, a constitutional reality, even though opposed it personally. He saw his role as one to find ways to compromise being opposing factions in the country.

He was a segregationist, however, and did not want all the southern black people to flee north. And it was that which prompted the Emancipation Proclamation after the war was already underway.

I know that isn't the romantic version of history, but I do believe it is the accurate one.

But all that is sort of beside the point. The interesting component of the OP is how the two countries might have gotten along just fine side by side if Lincoln and the Union Congress had chosen to allow the secession rather than try to forcibly reverse it.

Lincoln did not WANT war...agreed, but he was fully prepared to prosecute a war against fellow Americans (and he approved of TOTAL war methods against Americans, killing over 50k civilians and destroying enormous amounts of private property) to impose his will. Completely in contradiction to Jeffersonian principles, but very much in line with Hamiltonian principles. He was a statist first and foremost....not unlike most of our recent presidents and certainly very much like the current occupant.

He also absolutely refused to compromise or negotiate with the South. His bastardized view of the Constitution, which he repeatedly breached, while claiming to abide by it, allowed him to wrongly believe the states did not have the right to secede.

Lincoln, like many in the North and South, thought the war would be over in weeks or a few months. When it dragged on, he waged total war on fellow Americans.

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

I'm sorry but I just can't see him as the despicable character that you seem to assign to him. He opposed slavery but he also opposed inteference in states' rights. Many close to him argued that he should just allow the southern states to secede without interference, but Lincoln could not bring himself to do that. He was without any precedent to guide him and he was without the benefit of hindsight that we all have.

But the bottom line is, Lincoln consented to war to preserve the union. The abolishment of slavery became a methodology and consequence of that, and not the reason for it.

Sojourner Truth, in October 1864, told President Lincoln that he was the first American President to help American Negros. President Lincoln responded: "And the only one who ever had such opportunity. Had our friends in the South behaved themselves, I could have done nothing whatever."

How many people would have had to die in the Civil War before you would see him as despicable? 2million? Half the population?

How many war crimes were committed by the North? The burning of Atlanta? Really? Not despicable?

What would your president have to do to his "subjects" before you would call it despicable? Seriously is there anything? Anything at all that Lincoln could have done to sway your opinion?

 

[Unkotare]

The entire western world eliminated slavery peacefully, except the USA.

That's not true.

 

[Unkotare]

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

 

[Unkotare]

The fact is the war WAS NEVER ABOUT SLAVERY.

Yes, it was. Many factors played a role, but all were grounded in the issue of slavery.

 

[RKMBrown]

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

That's like patting a husband on the back for shooting one of his kids and threatening to kill the rest if the wife did not come back. Union? What Union? You don't create a union at the point of a gun, more like a conquered people.

 

[Unkotare]

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

Union? What Union? You don't create a union at the point of a gun, more like a conquered people.

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

 

[RKMBrown]

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

Union? What Union? You don't create a union at the point of a gun, more like a conquered people.

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

 

[RKMBrown]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srD7PDSY6fc]Realizing Government's Abuse of Power - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Unkotare]

Union? What Union? You don't create a union at the point of a gun, more like a conquered people.

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

Yeah those fools wanted to be free ...

Wanted to be 'what'? What was that word you used?

 

[Unkotare]

Union? What Union? You don't create a union at the point of a gun, more like a conquered people.

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

You're a citizen, aren't you? Did you vote? Did your friends and neighbors? Do you think obama got elected just by voters in Northern states? Do you think that voters made that mistake - twice - because of some imaginary division relative to a war that ended with the crushing of a traitorous, evil rebellion over 150 years ago? The American Civil War is over, let it go. And if you don't think that a whole lot of people in whatever state you live in didn't make the mistake of voting for obama, you're crazy.

We are one country, whether you personally like it or not. Get used to the idea or get the fuck out and go live in some other country. And no, we're not breaking off a piece of this country for fools sucking on ancient sour grapes to occupy. Tough shit, go look elsewhere.

 

[RKMBrown]

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

You're a citizen, aren't you? Did you vote? Did your friends and neighbors? Do you think obama got elected just by voters in Northern states? Do you think that voters made that mistake - twice - because of some imaginary division relative to a war that ended with the crushing of a traitorous, evil rebellion over 150 years ago? The American Civil War is over, let it go. And if you don't think that a whole lot of people in whatever state you live in didn't make the mistake of voting for obama, you're crazy.

We are one country, whether you personally like it or not. Get used to the idea or get the fuck out and go live in some other country. And no, we're not breaking off a piece of this country for fools sucking on ancient sour grapes to occupy. Tough shit, go look elsewhere.

Nah I'll stay right here in Texas where men are men, women are women, and pussies like you that need government to take care of them from cradle to grave are far between. What's it like being a helpless, useless piece of shit that needs re-distribution checks taken by force to make ends meat?

 

[rdean]

Think "South Africa".

 

[gipper]

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

Yeah...he saved the Union by killing and destroying half of it, for nefarious reasons. That is a great president in the minds of the Lincoln Cultists.

Is it any wonder many Americans allow their government to take their rights and impose tyrannical rule by elites?

 

[MuadDib]

The United States of America. He didn't "create" the Union, he saved it from ill-intentioned traitors who drew horrific numbers of their fellow Americans into certain death for the sake, when all is said and done, of an utterly evil institution and the ambitions of fools.

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

You're a citizen, aren't you? Did you vote? Did your friends and neighbors? Do you think obama got elected just by voters in Northern states? Do you think that voters made that mistake - twice - because of some imaginary division relative to a war that ended with the crushing of a traitorous, evil rebellion over 150 years ago? The American Civil War is over, let it go. And if you don't think that a whole lot of people in whatever state you live in didn't make the mistake of voting for obama, you're crazy.

We are one country, whether you personally like it or not. Get used to the idea or get the fuck out and go live in some other country. And no, we're not breaking off a piece of this country for fools sucking on ancient sour grapes to occupy. Tough shit, go look elsewhere.

Not really. Unfortunately, there are Libtards in the South too.

However, Obama's idol, Lincoln, was elected even though he did not appear on the ballots in any of the Southern states because of his support for the Morrill Tariff.

 

[Unkotare]

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

You're a citizen, aren't you? Did you vote? Did your friends and neighbors? Do you think obama got elected just by voters in Northern states? Do you think that voters made that mistake - twice - because of some imaginary division relative to a war that ended with the crushing of a traitorous, evil rebellion over 150 years ago? The American Civil War is over, let it go. And if you don't think that a whole lot of people in whatever state you live in didn't make the mistake of voting for obama, you're crazy.

We are one country, whether you personally like it or not. Get used to the idea or get the fuck out and go live in some other country. And no, we're not breaking off a piece of this country for fools sucking on ancient sour grapes to occupy. Tough shit, go look elsewhere.

Nah I'll stay right here in Texas

Oh, you'll stay in the United States? Start acting like an American then. The American Civil War is long over. The rebellious traitors lost. Get over it. Start being a citizen and stop being a little bitch.

 

[Unkotare]

IMHO he should have been impeached and he should be despised by all Americans today.

Your opinion is shit. He saved the Union and is rightly lauded by all clear-thinking Americans as perhaps our greatest president.

Yeah...he saved the Union by killing and destroying half of it

No, he didn't. He could have, but he didn't. You should be grateful, not bitter.

 

[Unkotare]

Yeah those fools wanted to be free, now we are all slaves of the all powerful Uncle Sam. Jack Boots for everyone, we are here we are proud, please ignore the rapes, murders, killings, slave labor tax system, all in the name of the American Empire. Hail Obama, Hail the North!

You're a citizen, aren't you? Did you vote? Did your friends and neighbors? Do you think obama got elected just by voters in Northern states? Do you think that voters made that mistake - twice - because of some imaginary division relative to a war that ended with the crushing of a traitorous, evil rebellion over 150 years ago? The American Civil War is over, let it go. And if you don't think that a whole lot of people in whatever state you live in didn't make the mistake of voting for obama, you're crazy.

We are one country, whether you personally like it or not. Get used to the idea or get the fuck out and go live in some other country. And no, we're not breaking off a piece of this country for fools sucking on ancient sour grapes to occupy. Tough shit, go look elsewhere.

Not really. Unfortunately, there are Libtards in the South too.

However, Obama's idol, Lincoln, was elected even though he did not appear on the ballots in any of the Southern states because of his support for the Morrill Tariff.

obama's "idol" is FDR. He just invokes the name of Lincoln for crass political purposes.