What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[Ray From Cleveland]

So what? All this tells me is that foreigners are coming here to lower the wages of professionals as well. That's supposed to be encouraging?

Between now and 2024 we would have a maximum of 6 million additional workers to fill 24 million new jobs. With the labor shortage, there should be no worry about lower wages. What workers in the US should be worried about is the lack of critical skill workers sending businesses and all their jobs overseas.

So tell me, how many times since you were alive have you seen a booming economy for over several years? This boom may last another two months, two years, who knows?

So many things can put a damper on our economy. A major terrorist attack similar to 911. A breakout of war with another country. A communications attack on the US via computers. A bankruptcy by a major bank or company like Verizon.

Any good economy is fragile to negative news. We don't know how many workers we will need next year yet alone in six years. It's just a cheap excuse to try and change the minds of anti-invasion Americans.

The longest economic expansion I have seen was
Mar 1991–Mar 2001 - 120 months.
We are currently 108 months into the current expansion. The slow recovery indicates it may well have a serveral years of expansion.

Even if the economy is interrupted by a recession which the average length is about 14 months, there is every reason to expect the 24 million figure will be reached because we are going to get 18 million job openings from boomer retirements even it there is no growth. If current job growth continues at the current level, we would have 13 million jobs from growth. No matter how you cut it the probability is pretty high that we will have far more jobs than we can possibly fill.

Keep in mind the immigration quotas are targets, the president can lower those numbers if needed.

No, I said booming economy, not steady or interrupted by a recession.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Economically, the 1990's were not only the longest period of economic expansions in history but one the strongest with steady job creation averaging 250,000/mo, low inflation, rising productivity, and a surging stock market.

I'm not going to debate that. What I will debate is that we will run out of people to do the work in this country. There is something wrong when you live in a country where there is more work than people, and 40 million people are still collecting food stamps.

Something is wrong, and it's not that we don't have enough people to do the work.

 

[danielpalos]

A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage!

Higher paid labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Again, you might as well take the standard deduction, then...

But keep pretending Trump didn't screw working people to help the rich. I know you really need to believe that.

Why should I not? I'm a working person and I'm doing much better under Trump than DumBama. I don't have to worry about stupid penalties, I will have more in my income tax return, and who knows, maybe I'll find a better job since there are more jobs out there and the economy is booming.

You people who live in these liberal states or cities that are always crying for higher taxes are sure speaking out now when they lose a deduction or two. You've allowed your cost of living to soar along with taxation, and now you don't get to write those high costs off.

Okay... We currently spend 19% of GDP on health care. Our GDP is 20 Trillion. So we are currently spending about 4 Trillion on health care. We just saved 0.8 Trillion. Of course, it means poor people will get the same access to health care you get, so I'm sure that horrifies you.

We don't pay our healthcare bills out of the GDP. GDP is only used to make comparisons. If we fell for Socialized medicine, that will be paid by tax dollars.

The Founders didn't want to keep people out. They totally wanted more people to come in for the rich to exploit. In fact, our whole history is based on exploiting immigrant labor. (This has been cleverly hidden from you in things called "books".)

I'm sure at the time, they wanted more horse breeders and carriage makers too. But guess what? We don't need horses and carriages anymore just like we don't need immigrants anymore. Yes, immigrants were good for this country at one time. Now they are nothing but a problem.

Yeah, given what I see on a daily basis, that's not going to happen any time soon. If anything, what I see is that these colleges put out kids and they usually have no idea how to write well.

I mean, I can find a video that will show me how to play the guitar, but I'm not going to become David Gilmour or Eric Clapton. And a video isn't going to teach a kid how to become me.

But driving in a straight line, anyone can figure that one out.

Anybody can figure it out and that's why we need over 30,000 drivers right now that we can't find. Most serious accidents happen driving in a straight line. It's not figuring it out, it's doing the job proficiently and maintaining an excellent driving record which many can't do. Too many points and nobody will insure you. DUI? You need about five years to clear that off your record and even then, some employers will not hire you.

Learning a musical instrument and writing something down on a piece of paper is an awful comparison. When I was teaching, my worst students were those who tried to learn themselves. You have to undo everything they did and start all over again.

Nobody needs to look over your shoulder when writing a resume. You need a music teacher to watch the several necessary things to alert you of your mistakes while playing: holding your neck properly, missing notes, tapping your foot, not looking back at your neck while reading; just a bunch of things.

However after a few years of lessons, a person is then capable of learning things off of videos because they already have the basics mastered.

It's not a serious problem to point out that most of you dumb white people who keep voting Republican and keep getting screwed by the One percenters is really kind of dumb.

I got screwed several times under DumBama; not once under Trump. You were saying????

 

[AZGAL]

• SOROS open societies encourages Immigration lawyers to teach ILLEGALS all the dirty tricks of how to play a victim, how to extend your time, how to commit immigration fraud, etc.
• from a MN law firm blog:

How long is the wait? Wilson Law Group is tracking the U visa approvals obtained by our clients for the current fiscal year. The approved U visas received by our office so far were filed with the VSC between May and August, 2013. More than a two year wait. In some cases two and a half years.

Waitlisted applicants are not completely without benefit. They are eligible for employment authorization for the duration of their time in limbo. However, time on the U visa waitlist does not count toward the 3 years “in U visa status” that applicants need in order to apply for permanent residence. Waitlisted applicants cannot lawfully travel outside of the U.S. Many U visa applicants have not had the ability to see family and friends in their home countries for prolonged periods of time. Every year spent on the waitlist delays the acquisition of permanent, stable status in the U.S.

Jan22
Alternatives to Temporary Protected Status
In the past few months the current administration has announced the ending of Temporary Protective Status (TPS) for multiple countries including El Salvador, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Sudan. If you are losing your TPS, there may be another way for you to obtain status in the United States. A few of these pathways are listed below.

If you entered the U.S. lawfully and have a spouse, parent , or child over 21 who is a United States citizen or permanent resident, you may be able to apply for residency. Individuals with family members meeting these categories may apply for residency within the...

 

[danielpalos]

• SOROS open societies encourages Immigration lawyers to teach ILLEGALS all the dirty tricks of how to play a victim, how to extend your time, how to commit immigration fraud, etc.
• from a MN law firm blog:

How long is the wait? Wilson Law Group is tracking the U visa approvals obtained by our clients for the current fiscal year. The approved U visas received by our office so far were filed with the VSC between May and August, 2013. More than a two year wait. In some cases two and a half years.

Waitlisted applicants are not completely without benefit. They are eligible for employment authorization for the duration of their time in limbo. However, time on the U visa waitlist does not count toward the 3 years “in U visa status” that applicants need in order to apply for permanent residence. Waitlisted applicants cannot lawfully travel outside of the U.S. Many U visa applicants have not had the ability to see family and friends in their home countries for prolonged periods of time. Every year spent on the waitlist delays the acquisition of permanent, stable status in the U.S.

Jan22
Alternatives to Temporary Protected Status
In the past few months the current administration has announced the ending of Temporary Protective Status (TPS) for multiple countries including El Salvador, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Sudan. If you are losing your TPS, there may be another way for you to obtain status in the United States. A few of these pathways are listed below.

If you entered the U.S. lawfully and have a spouse, parent , or child over 21 who is a United States citizen or permanent resident, you may be able to apply for residency. Individuals with family members meeting these categories may apply for residency within the...

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

 

[AZGAL]

Still the "children in cages" bullshit !! Here is some serious Trump Derangement Syndrome"!:

Secret Agent Number Six‏ @DesignationSix Aug 8

If @McDonalds sponsors Fox "News" and @FoxNews advocates for separating families and putting children in cages, then McDonald's is not a kid friendly or a family restaurant. I have @McDonalds tagged here so they will get notifications every time you LIKE,RETWEET or COMMENT

4:25 PM - 8 Aug 2018

 

[Flopper]

Between now and 2024 we would have a maximum of 6 million additional workers to fill 24 million new jobs. With the labor shortage, there should be no worry about lower wages. What workers in the US should be worried about is the lack of critical skill workers sending businesses and all their jobs overseas.

So tell me, how many times since you were alive have you seen a booming economy for over several years? This boom may last another two months, two years, who knows?

So many things can put a damper on our economy. A major terrorist attack similar to 911. A breakout of war with another country. A communications attack on the US via computers. A bankruptcy by a major bank or company like Verizon.

Any good economy is fragile to negative news. We don't know how many workers we will need next year yet alone in six years. It's just a cheap excuse to try and change the minds of anti-invasion Americans.

The longest economic expansion I have seen was
Mar 1991–Mar 2001 - 120 months.
We are currently 108 months into the current expansion. The slow recovery indicates it may well have a serveral years of expansion.

Even if the economy is interrupted by a recession which the average length is about 14 months, there is every reason to expect the 24 million figure will be reached because we are going to get 18 million job openings from boomer retirements even it there is no growth. If current job growth continues at the current level, we would have 13 million jobs from growth. No matter how you cut it the probability is pretty high that we will have far more jobs than we can possibly fill.

Keep in mind the immigration quotas are targets, the president can lower those numbers if needed.

No, I said booming economy, not steady or interrupted by a recession.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Economically, the 1990's were not only the longest period of economic expansions in history but one the strongest with steady job creation averaging 250,000/mo, low inflation, rising productivity, and a surging stock market.

I'm not going to debate that. What I will debate is that we will run out of people to do the work in this country. There is something wrong when you live in a country where there is more work than people, and 40 million people are still collecting food stamps.

Something is wrong, and it's not that we don't have enough people to do the work.

No, there is nothing wrong because when Welfare was reformed, social services were gradually reduced as family income increased. The idea was there would be no sharp cutoffs of benefits to encourage families to turn down work to keep benefits. So instead of a family of 4 losing all food stamps benefits when family income reached say $28,000, benefits started decreasing from $500 a month as income increased. When income reached say $36,000, food stamp benefits had gradually reduced to $30/mo. So we have millions of people on SNAP getting very little in benefits.

We could probably cut 10 million people off of SNAP rolls and no one would go hunger. However, we would have a sharp cut off so if you make a dollar more than cutoff, you lost all benefits.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So tell me, how many times since you were alive have you seen a booming economy for over several years? This boom may last another two months, two years, who knows?

So many things can put a damper on our economy. A major terrorist attack similar to 911. A breakout of war with another country. A communications attack on the US via computers. A bankruptcy by a major bank or company like Verizon.

Any good economy is fragile to negative news. We don't know how many workers we will need next year yet alone in six years. It's just a cheap excuse to try and change the minds of anti-invasion Americans.

The longest economic expansion I have seen was
Mar 1991–Mar 2001 - 120 months.
We are currently 108 months into the current expansion. The slow recovery indicates it may well have a serveral years of expansion.

Even if the economy is interrupted by a recession which the average length is about 14 months, there is every reason to expect the 24 million figure will be reached because we are going to get 18 million job openings from boomer retirements even it there is no growth. If current job growth continues at the current level, we would have 13 million jobs from growth. No matter how you cut it the probability is pretty high that we will have far more jobs than we can possibly fill.

Keep in mind the immigration quotas are targets, the president can lower those numbers if needed.

No, I said booming economy, not steady or interrupted by a recession.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Economically, the 1990's were not only the longest period of economic expansions in history but one the strongest with steady job creation averaging 250,000/mo, low inflation, rising productivity, and a surging stock market.

I'm not going to debate that. What I will debate is that we will run out of people to do the work in this country. There is something wrong when you live in a country where there is more work than people, and 40 million people are still collecting food stamps.

Something is wrong, and it's not that we don't have enough people to do the work.

No, there is nothing wrong because when Welfare was reformed, social services were gradually reduced as family income increased. The idea was there would be no sharp cutoffs of benefits to encourage families to turn down work to keep benefits. So instead of a family of 4 losing all food stamps benefits when family income reached say $28,000, benefits started decreasing from $500 a month as income increased. When income reached say $36,000, food stamp benefits had gradually reduced to $30/mo. So we have millions of people on SNAP getting very little in benefits.

We could probably cut 10 million people off of SNAP rolls and no one would go hunger. However, we would have a sharp cut off so if you make a dollar more than cutoff, you lost all benefits.

So in other words, what you are saying is that our social programs encourage people to not create income of their own. I couldn't agree more.

So then the concept switches from needing more people to do the work to redoing our social programs so that social programs do encourage people to work. Again, I agree with that.

In other words, you stated that in the near future, we are going to need 6 million more workers than we have now so we must allow immigration. What's wrong with taking those 6 million collecting food stamps today from our food stamp and welfare pool? It would still leave 34 million on the dole!

Now.....doing the calculations, those 6 million foreigners would still be here to fill in the gap since we bring in over a million people a year into this country plus work Visa's and permits.

We don't need anymore immigration than what we have now. That's the point.

 

[JoeB131]

That's what your lefty media tells you. And like a good leftist soldier, you repeat it to us. Ho hum. Now for the reality. Its the lefy that keeps opposing all voter ID. (not just the citizenship part)

And a "National ID system, compete with biometrics" wasn't the question. So once again >> Would you oppose having an ID law requiring proof of citizenship ? To keep aliens from voting ?

Since that isn't happening, I'm not that concerned with it. You guys have been looking for the elusive illegal alien voter since 2000 and haven't found him yet.

It's the right that opposes a national ID system, not the left.

 

[JoeB131]

We haven’t had this good of an economy in a long time. Unlike last good economies, it’s not built on a bubble like tech or housing. Yes, our labor participation rate increased a little, but not nearly enough. So maybe instead of looking to bring in people that will destroy this country, look at our social programs that are keeping people from taking these jobs. That’s where the problem is.

Yeah, those Darkies need to take starvation wages and be happy with it!

Says the guy who can't get health insurance and won't find a better job.

In other words, you stated that in the near future, we are going to need 6 million more workers than we have now so we must allow immigration. What's wrong with taking those 6 million collecting food stamps today from our food stamp and welfare pool? It would still leave 34 million on the dole!

Look, you stupid shit, the thing is, able bodies working adults aren't the ones on food stamps. The few who are already have jobs, working for companies that don't pay enough.

this has been explained to you a bunch of times.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm not going to debate that. What I will debate is that we will run out of people to do the work in this country. There is something wrong when you live in a country where there is more work than people, and 40 million people are still collecting food stamps.

Something is wrong, and it's not that we don't have enough people to do the work.

Most of those 40 million people are elderly, disabled or children and can't work.

 

[JoeB131]

Why should I not? I'm a working person and I'm doing much better under Trump than DumBama. I don't have to worry about stupid penalties, I will have more in my income tax return, and who knows, maybe I'll find a better job since there are more jobs out there and the economy is booming.

That would require you to get off your ass and stop whining...

But I guess if having a white guy in the White HOuse makes you feel better for one year before the next recession hits, have at it.

You people who live in these liberal states or cities that are always crying for higher taxes are sure speaking out now when they lose a deduction or two. You've allowed your cost of living to soar along with taxation, and now you don't get to write those high costs off.

State income tax in IL- 4.95%
State income tax in OH- 4.997%

Anybody can figure it out and that's why we need over 30,000 drivers right now that we can't find. Most serious accidents happen driving in a straight line. It's not figuring it out, it's doing the job proficiently and maintaining an excellent driving record which many can't do. Too many points and nobody will insure you. DUI? You need about five years to clear that off your record and even then, some employers will not hire you.

And yet you can't find a job that offers health insurance with all that.

Nobody needs to look over your shoulder when writing a resume. You need a music teacher to watch the several necessary things to alert you of your mistakes while playing: holding your neck properly, missing notes, tapping your foot, not looking back at your neck while reading; just a bunch of things.

Um, actually, you do. Because you write stuff down, you know exactly what you are talking about... but most other people won't. Most people suck at writing resumes because they can't be objective about their own jobs. Trust me, I've managed to make up a whole list of mistakes people commonly make writing resumes...

My personal favorite is people who take their job description from HR and plop it into their resume... usually complete with "Responsible for" and third person verb tenses like nobody is going to notice. I would say 40% of resumes I see, people try to get away with that.

 

[JoeB131]

I got screwed several times under DumBama; not once under Trump. You were saying????

The only screwing you got was the inadequacy you felt when a black man accomplished more than you ever will.... that's kind of on you.

 

[protectionist]

Since that isn't happening, I'm not that concerned with it. You guys have been looking for the elusive illegal alien voter since 2000 and haven't found him yet.

It's the right that opposes a national ID system, not the left.

So your answer is yes, you would oppose having an ID law requiring proof of citizenship ? To keep aliens from voting. Well sure, because that would keep your illegal alien friends from voting, and helping to get Democrats elected.

And deflecting to how many illegals are voting or not, is a DODGE. Simply enacting a citizenship requirement isn't a big deal. It's inexpensive both with time and money, it's easy, and should be done, regardless of anybody's estimate of the illegality taking place.

And for the illegal alien voter, there's nothing "elusive" about him to me. I've talked to them all across the country, in voting halls, on construction sites, in office buildings doing janitorial work, around my apartment complex doing landscaping, etc. And they're always willing to brag about how many laws they break (voting no exception)

Whatever gave you the idea we hadn't found them ? Let me guess >> CNN, MSNBC, look no further.

 

[danielpalos]

So tell me, how many times since you were alive have you seen a booming economy for over several years? This boom may last another two months, two years, who knows?

So many things can put a damper on our economy. A major terrorist attack similar to 911. A breakout of war with another country. A communications attack on the US via computers. A bankruptcy by a major bank or company like Verizon.

Any good economy is fragile to negative news. We don't know how many workers we will need next year yet alone in six years. It's just a cheap excuse to try and change the minds of anti-invasion Americans.

The longest economic expansion I have seen was
Mar 1991–Mar 2001 - 120 months.
We are currently 108 months into the current expansion. The slow recovery indicates it may well have a serveral years of expansion.

Even if the economy is interrupted by a recession which the average length is about 14 months, there is every reason to expect the 24 million figure will be reached because we are going to get 18 million job openings from boomer retirements even it there is no growth. If current job growth continues at the current level, we would have 13 million jobs from growth. No matter how you cut it the probability is pretty high that we will have far more jobs than we can possibly fill.

Keep in mind the immigration quotas are targets, the president can lower those numbers if needed.

No, I said booming economy, not steady or interrupted by a recession.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

Economically, the 1990's were not only the longest period of economic expansions in history but one the strongest with steady job creation averaging 250,000/mo, low inflation, rising productivity, and a surging stock market.

I'm not going to debate that. What I will debate is that we will run out of people to do the work in this country. There is something wrong when you live in a country where there is more work than people, and 40 million people are still collecting food stamps.

Something is wrong, and it's not that we don't have enough people to do the work.

No, there is nothing wrong because when Welfare was reformed, social services were gradually reduced as family income increased. The idea was there would be no sharp cutoffs of benefits to encourage families to turn down work to keep benefits. So instead of a family of 4 losing all food stamps benefits when family income reached say $28,000, benefits started decreasing from $500 a month as income increased. When income reached say $36,000, food stamp benefits had gradually reduced to $30/mo. So we have millions of people on SNAP getting very little in benefits.

We could probably cut 10 million people off of SNAP rolls and no one would go hunger. However, we would have a sharp cut off so if you make a dollar more than cutoff, you lost all benefits.

the poor need a tax credit for an accountant.

 

[RealDave]

Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump:

"If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law," Attorney General Jeff Sessions said Monday at a law enforcement conference in Scottsdale, Arizona. "If you don't like that, then don't smuggle children over our border."

Administration officials explained that the goal of the program is 100 percent prosecution of all who enter the U.S. illegally. When adults are prosecuted and jailed, their children will be separated from them, just as would happen for a U.S. citizen convicted and jailed.​

Anguish at Southwest border as more immigrant children are separated from parents

The Trump administration's willingness to take children from their parents has raised concerns about how far authorities should go to stem unauthorized border crossings and what human cost is acceptable in the name of border security and immigration control.

"There is something terrible happening here that Americans would not support if they understood it," said F. Scott McCown, director of the Children’s Rights Clinic at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law.​

I don't care how much you hate illegal immigrants this is EVIL. You are punishing the children. It's abhorrant and wrong and inexcusable. I hope they rot in hell for this. 700 children so far have been seperated from the only family they know and lost to our often incompetent and mismanaged child care system. I fail to see how any parent could support actions like these.

When parents are held for prosecution, their children are turned over to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. The children are then designated as "unaccompanied minors," and the government tries to connect them to family members who are already in the U.S. Until then, children wait in shelters or are sent to federally contracted foster homes, often without parents being told exactly where they are, immigration advocates said.

It may soon become even more difficult to place children with relatives. The Department of Homeland Security is proposing immigration checks be done on all people in a household who may take in these "unaccompanied" children, which means relatives who are undocumented may be less likely to come forward.

In the meantime, space in shelters and foster homes is limited; The Washington Post reported the administration plans to open facilities at military bases to house some of the separated children.​

Yes, this is terrible. I think I know of a solution though: If you have children, STF away from our borders.

Of course you. being a chickenshit, would punish the children.

 

[RealDave]

Since that isn't happening, I'm not that concerned with it. You guys have been looking for the elusive illegal alien voter since 2000 and haven't found him yet.

It's the right that opposes a national ID system, not the left.

So your answer is yes, you would oppose having an ID law requiring proof of citizenship ? To keep aliens from voting. Well sure, because that would keep your illegal alien friends from voting, and helping to get Democrats elected.

And deflecting to how many illegals are voting or not, is a DODGE. Simply enacting a citizenship requirement isn't a big deal. It's inexpensive both with time and money, it's easy, and should be done, regardless of anybody's estimate of the illegality taking place.

And for the illegal alien voter, there's nothing "elusive" about him to me. I've talked to them all across the country, in voting halls, on construction sites, in office buildings doing janitorial work, around my apartment complex doing landscaping, etc. And they're always willing to brag about how many laws they break (voting no exception)

Whatever gave you the idea we hadn't found them ? Let me guess >> CNN, MSNBC, look no further.

Illegals are not voting.

Why would a person hiding from the law walk into a government run facility where they may be asked to show ID?

 

[protectionist]

Illegals are not voting.

Why would a person hiding from the law walk into a government run facility where they may be asked to show ID?

1. You make a statement. you present no evidence.

2. They are NOT asked to show CITIZENSHIP ID. Showing ordinary personal ID is something anyone can do, and has nothing to do with citizenship, or being an illegal alien (or legal alien) People in voting places have no idea if anyone is a citizen or not.

 

[JoeB131]

So your answer is yes, you would oppose having an ID law requiring proof of citizenship ? To keep aliens from voting. Well sure, because that would keep your illegal alien friends from voting, and helping to get Democrats elected.

You have yet to prove that they are voting, and these laws are being used to keep citizens of color from voting because they can't afford an ID.

And deflecting to how many illegals are voting or not, is a DODGE. Simply enacting a citizenship requirement isn't a big deal. It's inexpensive both with time and money, it's easy, and should be done, regardless of anybody's estimate of the illegality taking place.

Well, guy, I'm only for finding solutions to problems that ACTUALLY EXIST. If so few illegals are voting that it won't really effect the outcome of an election, then this really isn't a problem.

THere are good reasons to have a national ID Card. Employment verification being the obvious one. But the Right doesn't want to give that kind of power to the Federal Government.

And for the illegal alien voter, there's nothing "elusive" about him to me. I've talked to them all across the country, in voting halls, on construction sites, in office buildings doing janitorial work, around my apartment complex doing landscaping, etc. And they're always willing to brag about how many laws they break (voting no exception)

Really, buddy you talk to the janitor? doesn't seem likely.

And then they totally admit that they are breaking laws... that doesn't seem very smart.

1. You make a statement. you present no evidence.

2. They are NOT asked to show CITIZENSHIP ID. Showing ordinary personal ID is something anyone can do, and has nothing to do with citizenship, or being an illegal alien (or legal alien) People in voting places have no idea if anyone is a citizen or not.

NO, what happens is that when I go to vote, I am asked to sign my card, and it is compared to the signature they have on file for me.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You have yet to prove that they are voting, and these laws are being used to keep citizens of color from voting because they can't afford an ID.

No, because the state offers it for free for those who can't afford it.

NO, what happens is that when I go to vote, I am asked to sign my card, and it is compared to the signature they have on file for me.

Yep, and that 85 year old guy sitting behind a table is a handwriting expert too!