What does "from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free" mean?

I am not sure about martial law but you have areas (call it disputed or call it occupied) where Israeli’s are governed by civil laws do Palestinians by military law). Shouldn’t they be governed by the same?

Depends. Do they want self-determination or do they not? The only way to be governed the same as Israelis is for them to become Israelis. Do you think that this should be forced on them? I'm thinking of people like the Tamimi family of Nabi Saleh as an example.

(Also, somehow, I don't really think that's what they mean by "river to sea". Do you?)
 
I am not sure about martial law but you have areas (call it disputed or call it occupied) where Israeli’s are governed by civil laws do Palestinians by military law). Shouldn’t they be governed by the same?

Depends. Do they want self-determination or do they not? The only way to be governed the same as Israelis is for them to become Israelis. Do you think that this should be forced on them? I'm thinking of people like the Tamimi family of Nabi Saleh as an example.

(Also, somehow, I don't really think that's what they mean by "river to sea". Do you?)

You did not ask what they meant but rather what it meant to us. If a territory is in dispute, and not part of Israel, all in it should be governed by military law don’t you think?
 
Maybe that means end the occupation.

Sure. End the occupation from the river to the sea. So what does THAT entail? How will we know when that has been accomplished?

Simple; The.destruction of Israel. Nothing about the “ 67 Borders” we hear so much about . “ The River to the Sea” looking at a map includes all of Israel
 
This is primarily a question for Team Palestine.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine must be free". What does this mean to you? How will we know that Palestine is free? What are the conditions which much be met?
Marc might be an undercover Hamas plant.
If so, he's right at home here at a pro Hamas website .
He did find a comfortable home with the Democratic Party and CNN Leftie fake news.

Not to worry, there's more where that came from.
I know that some of CNN news is anti-Israel. Which is no reason to accuse all of CNN as giving false news, which is what the US President would like all his followers to believe.

Not all Republicans are for Israel. Not all Democrats are anti Israel.

Let us look at each news separately without generalizing everyone in one organization, Station, etc.

Lamont did go to the UN and say what he said at the UN.

CNN did the right thing.
Who invited him to speak there, I do not know.
It was definitely not the right thing to do. Clearly a pro Palestinian, anti Israel group was responsible for granting him a time to speak at the UN, which we know ( as full of anti Jews/Israel people/countries, as it is) was going to let him, or anyone else speak against Israel and not bring any actual point of contribution to ending the conflict, except for repeating the Arab/Muslim mantra, of "No Israel, no Peace, No Anything with non Muslims.
CNN is today is one of the main propoganda mouthpieces of the Democratic Party and the Left. And the Democratic party is now home to the Muslim Brotherhood, Nation of Islam, and numerous other anti Israel antisemtic groups and individuals. Jewish Americans who are still Democrats are fools that are in denial of what the Democratic Party has transformed into.
 
You did not ask what they meant but rather what it meant to us. If a territory is in dispute, and not part of Israel, all in it should be governed by military law don’t you think?

No, I don't think. Though admittedly, I'm going to go look some things up, as it is not an area of expertise for me. But at first blush, I'm going to suggest that laws should be applied based on nationality of individuals, and not on the territory they reside when discussing territories under dispute. As it is now, Israeli citizens living in Area C are subject to Israeli law and military law, while Arab Palestinians are subject to Jordanian law and military law. I would suggest it is unconscionable to require people living in disputed territory to be under the law of a foreign nation. It would be especially unconscionable to apply that to Israelis since Jordanian law specifically identifies them as "enemies of the State".
 
Either as one or multiple states or city states with a defined territory, self governing, with an economy, trade, peaceful relations with it's neighbots and a recognized member of the international community. Such entities would control their own borders, and negotiate their own agreements and provide for their people as best they can.

Achievement would be recognized when those conditions are met.

Which of those conditions have not yet been met, and how can they be met?
That is an incredibly compex question. But I am sitting in traffic on the interstate behind a probable accident and not going anywhere any time soon so I have time to answer.

In terms of the Palestinian people...there is Gaza and WB. None of those conditions are completely met. Gaza had partial autonomy. West Bank similar. West Bank operates under three different, and often inequitable systems of law which makes no sense. There are large portions of Palestine thst are ambiguous. Are they psrt of Israel or not? There is considerable resistence to allowing the Palestinians to be recognized in the international community and efforts to do so have usually been met with retribution on Israel's part. In terms of peaceful relations with their neighbors, Gaza has not met that condition but WB by and large has. The government is not answerable to the people, and corruption is a huge problem.

In terms of Israel, it has met many conditions regatding pursuing friendly relations, trade, recognized standing in the international community. It's government is anwerable to its citizens and protects their rights for the most part but there are problems.

To meet the conditions of freedom...

Palestinians need to make a decision..do they want an autonomous state or two? Do they want semi autonomous regions as part of a larger Greater Israel state or Caliphates. They need to start holding their leaders accountsble for their state of affairs first and then work on pushing for political not violent solutions and international recognition with or without Israel's permission. They need to renounce terrorist acts and stop rewarding them.

In terms of Israel, it needs quit sitting on the occupied territories and make a decision. Either take the area and ALL its inhabitants as Israeli citizens with full and equal rights, or allow it independence. You can not have freedom when on portion of the populationis subject to military law and the other to civil law. When pn portion can participate on a democracy and the other is excluded.

20 min and traffic hasnt moved at all...

I apologize for not fully responding to this since you made such an effort with it on your phone. Expression of sympathy for the traffic! Ugh.

Mostly, I didn't respond because I largely agree with your broad assessment of what both Israel and Palestine need to do.

Other than the point made concerning military/civil law in another post, the only other thing I would question is how Israel can "allow" Palestine independence. What specific actions would Israel take which would "allow" this?
 
And, I'd also add that this whole idea of "two systems of law" is another poorly understood, but oft-repeated sound bite used explicitly to paint Israel as immoral or evil. Israel is, in fact, following international law by not imposing Israeli law on the conflict territories or the residents of those conflict territories.
 
You did not ask what they meant but rather what it meant to us. If a territory is in dispute, and not part of Israel, all in it should be governed by military law don’t you think?

No, I don't think. Though admittedly, I'm going to go look some things up, as it is not an area of expertise for me. But at first blush, I'm going to suggest that laws should be applied based on nationality of individuals, and not on the territory they reside when discussing territories under dispute. As it is now, Israeli citizens living in Area C are subject to Israeli law and military law, while Arab Palestinians are subject to Jordanian law and military law. I would suggest it is unconscionable to require people living in disputed territory to be under the law of a foreign nation. It would be especially unconscionable to apply that to Israelis since Jordanian law specifically identifies them as "enemies of the State".
I do not believe Israelis are subject to military law at all. Only Palestinians. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.
 
Either as one or multiple states or city states with a defined territory, self governing, with an economy, trade, peaceful relations with it's neighbots and a recognized member of the international community. Such entities would control their own borders, and negotiate their own agreements and provide for their people as best they can.

Achievement would be recognized when those conditions are met.

Which of those conditions have not yet been met, and how can they be met?
That is an incredibly compex question. But I am sitting in traffic on the interstate behind a probable accident and not going anywhere any time soon so I have time to answer.

In terms of the Palestinian people...there is Gaza and WB. None of those conditions are completely met. Gaza had partial autonomy. West Bank similar. West Bank operates under three different, and often inequitable systems of law which makes no sense. There are large portions of Palestine thst are ambiguous. Are they psrt of Israel or not? There is considerable resistence to allowing the Palestinians to be recognized in the international community and efforts to do so have usually been met with retribution on Israel's part. In terms of peaceful relations with their neighbors, Gaza has not met that condition but WB by and large has. The government is not answerable to the people, and corruption is a huge problem.

In terms of Israel, it has met many conditions regatding pursuing friendly relations, trade, recognized standing in the international community. It's government is anwerable to its citizens and protects their rights for the most part but there are problems.

To meet the conditions of freedom...

Palestinians need to make a decision..do they want an autonomous state or two? Do they want semi autonomous regions as part of a larger Greater Israel state or Caliphates. They need to start holding their leaders accountsble for their state of affairs first and then work on pushing for political not violent solutions and international recognition with or without Israel's permission. They need to renounce terrorist acts and stop rewarding them.

In terms of Israel, it needs quit sitting on the occupied territories and make a decision. Either take the area and ALL its inhabitants as Israeli citizens with full and equal rights, or allow it independence. You can not have freedom when on portion of the populationis subject to military law and the other to civil law. When pn portion can participate on a democracy and the other is excluded.

20 min and traffic hasnt moved at all...

I apologize for not fully responding to this since you made such an effort with it on your phone. Expression of sympathy for the traffic! Ugh.

Mostly, I didn't respond because I largely agree with your broad assessment of what both Israel and Palestine need to do.

Other than the point made concerning military/civil law in another post, the only other thing I would question is how Israel can "allow" Palestine independence. What specific actions would Israel take which would "allow" this?

For specific actions...

First off...there has to be Palestinian leadership that truly acts in the interests of its people.
Second, this leadership needs to recognize Israel’s rights as a nation to exist, and press for it’s own rights within that.
Until then it is almost impossible for Israel to move towards allowing complete autonomy.

Honestly much of the onus to begin this is on the Palestinian side to begin with.

What Israel can do is openly, with out qualifications recognize the Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place but those rights can not be made contingent on the demise of Israel or it’s Jewish identity.

Small steps in the meantime could include:

Greater attempts to invest in Israel’s Arab community and make them feel a welcome part of Israel...not an unwanted minority.

Be cognizant that from it’s founding...Israel is a multi ethnic multi religious state. There should be no preferred class. That is one concern with the new national law...

Israel MUST make a decision on those areas it controls but won’t incorperate into it’s state. It puts non Israeli citizens in a perpetual limbo with no real rights, no real legal recourse...nothing. So to put it crudely....shit or get off the pot. Offer residents full citizenship or permanent resident status...their choice. Get rid of the grotesquely unfair military justice system, put them all under Israeli civil law and be done with it. That then leaves the area under Palestinian control in a yet to be determined status.
 
And, I'd also add that this whole idea of "two systems of law" is another poorly understood, but oft-repeated sound bite used explicitly to paint Israel as immoral or evil. Israel is, in fact, following international law by not imposing Israeli law on the conflict territories or the residents of those conflict territories.
But it isn’t TWO systems...it is THREE and military law offers far fewer protections and rights than either civil law system plus as I understand it, it only applies to Palestinians.
 
I do not believe Israelis are subject to military law at all. Only Palestinians. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

Israelis are subject to military law in Area C. Not in Israel "proper".
 
I do not believe Israelis are subject to military law at all. Only Palestinians. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.

Israelis are subject to military law in Area C. Not in Israel "proper".

Not in practice: The Military Courts

It should also be emphasized that although the security legislation empowers the courts in the West Bank to try any person who commits an offense within their area or jurisdiction, in practice the military courts deal solely with cases relating to Palestinian residents. All cases involving settlers who have committed criminal and/or security offenses in the West Bank are brought before the civilian courts within the State of Israel.
 
But it isn’t TWO systems...it is THREE and military law offers far fewer protections and rights than either civil law system plus as I understand it, it only applies to Palestinians.

Sure. Three systems. Israeli law for Israelis. Jordanian law for Arab Palestinians. And additionally military law for residents of Area C under full Israeli control, used primarily for security issues as I understand it.

How does this pose a problem?
 
Honestly much of the onus to begin this is on the Palestinian side ...
Could not possibly agree more.

What Israel can do is openly, with out qualifications recognize the Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place ...
I believe this has been acknowledged by Israel for a hundred years and counting.

Be cognizant that from it’s founding...Israel is a multi ethnic multi religious state. There should be no preferred class. That is one concern with the new national law...
Hard no on this one.

First, there is NO preferred "class" in Israel, all people are equal under the law.

Second, Israel's founding was SPECIFICALLY to address the self-determination of the Jewish people. It was not intended to be a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- it was specifically designed to the be the ONE State in the world where Jewish culture took precedence. This is entirely normal. The break up of Yugoslavia, as an example among MANY, was NOT to create six new multi-ethnic States -- it was to create six definitive States where each could preserve and protect its own unique culture. This is not to say that newly created nations must be thoroughly ethnically cleansed. Most of these states have a minority that remained. Again, this is normal and the fact that Israel is uniquely condemned for both having an Arab minority and for alleged mistreatment of its Arab minority for this is TELLING. The fact that Israel is uniquely required to be multi-ethnic is TELLING. And frankly, no one is DEMANDING that Arab Palestine develop as a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state. In point of fact, the international community, yourself included, is DEMANDING a Jew-free state for Arab Palestine. It is DEMANDING that Jews not be included in any territory which may one day be part of an Arab Palestine state. The point is that national liberation movements revolve around unique cultural and ethnic groups and to require Israel, uniquely, to provide a "multi-ethnic" state is a double standard.

Third, the new national law is exactly identical to numerous national laws in dozens and dozens of countries. Indeed, MOST countries exist exactly for the reason to preserve and protect a specific indigenous culture, and this is especially true of new countries which have emerged in the past 100 years. Now, if you want to suggest that ALL countries created in the past 100 years based on the self-determination of a specific cultural group be rejected, please inform.

Israel MUST make a decision on those areas it controls but won’t incorperate into it’s state. It puts non Israeli citizens in a perpetual limbo with no real rights, no real legal recourse...nothing. So to put it crudely....shit or get off the pot. Offer residents full citizenship or permanent resident status...their choice. Get rid of the grotesquely unfair military justice system, put them all under Israeli civil law and be done with it. That then leaves the area under Palestinian control in a yet to be determined status.
Well, in point of international law, Israel MUST refrain from making unilateral decisions to annex disputed territory. And frankly, I'm a little surprised that you would suggest such a thing. That said, I'm actually inclined to agree with you. In the absence of either a peace process or any sort of Arab Palestinian drive toward peace, self-governance and mutual recognition, the only options are to maintain the status quo or to make unilateral decisions. The problem with annexation, of course, is the risk of creating yet another enclave of shitiness like Gaza or to create a border threat like Iran's Hezbollah in Lebanon. Neither especially good options, though perfectly manageable by Israel as already demonstrated. But, in order to avoid a civil war, on top of the threat from Gaza, from Lebanon and from a newly created West Bank Palestine, I'd be inclined to suggest that the choice of full citizenship or permanent resident status to be unworkable. For the 300,000 Arabs in the areas Israel annexes the choice should be citizenship or nicely compensated "voluntary" deportation.

And finally, "perpetual limbo with no real rights and no real legal recourse" is a direct correlation to violence and harm against Israel. The solution is to be found in the absence of violence and terrorism.
 
Honestly much of the onus to begin this is on the Palestinian side ...
Could not possibly agree more.

What Israel can do is openly, with out qualifications recognize the Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place ...
I believe this has been acknowledged by Israel for a hundred years and counting.

Be cognizant that from it’s founding...Israel is a multi ethnic multi religious state. There should be no preferred class. That is one concern with the new national law...
Hard no on this one.

First, there is NO preferred "class" in Israel, all people are equal under the law.

Second, Israel's founding was SPECIFICALLY to address the self-determination of the Jewish people. It was not intended to be a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- it was specifically designed to the be the ONE State in the world where Jewish culture took precedence. This is entirely normal. The break up of Yugoslavia, as an example among MANY, was NOT to create six new multi-ethnic States -- it was to create six definitive States where each could preserve and protect its own unique culture. This is not to say that newly created nations must be thoroughly ethnically cleansed. Most of these states have a minority that remained. Again, this is normal and the fact that Israel is uniquely condemned for both having an Arab minority and for alleged mistreatment of its Arab minority for this is TELLING. The fact that Israel is uniquely required to be multi-ethnic is TELLING. And frankly, no one is DEMANDING that Arab Palestine develop as a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state. In point of fact, the international community, yourself included, is DEMANDING a Jew-free state for Arab Palestine. It is DEMANDING that Jews not be included in any territory which may one day be part of an Arab Palestine state. The point is that national liberation movements revolve around unique cultural and ethnic groups and to require Israel, uniquely, to provide a "multi-ethnic" state is a double standard.

Third, the new national law is exactly identical to numerous national laws in dozens and dozens of countries. Indeed, MOST countries exist exactly for the reason to preserve and protect a specific indigenous culture, and this is especially true of new countries which have emerged in the past 100 years. Now, if you want to suggest that ALL countries created in the past 100 years based on the self-determination of a specific cultural group be rejected, please inform.

Israel MUST make a decision on those areas it controls but won’t incorperate into it’s state. It puts non Israeli citizens in a perpetual limbo with no real rights, no real legal recourse...nothing. So to put it crudely....shit or get off the pot. Offer residents full citizenship or permanent resident status...their choice. Get rid of the grotesquely unfair military justice system, put them all under Israeli civil law and be done with it. That then leaves the area under Palestinian control in a yet to be determined status.
Well, in point of international law, Israel MUST refrain from making unilateral decisions to annex disputed territory. And frankly, I'm a little surprised that you would suggest such a thing. That said, I'm actually inclined to agree with you. In the absence of either a peace process or any sort of Arab Palestinian drive toward peace, self-governance and mutual recognition, the only options are to maintain the status quo or to make unilateral decisions. The problem with annexation, of course, is the risk of creating yet another enclave of shitiness like Gaza or to create a border threat like Iran's Hezbollah in Lebanon. Neither especially good options, though perfectly manageable by Israel as already demonstrated. But, in order to avoid a civil war, on top of the threat from Gaza, from Lebanon and from a newly created West Bank Palestine, I'd be inclined to suggest that the choice of full citizenship or permanent resident status to be unworkable. For the 300,000 Arabs in the areas Israel annexes the choice should be citizenship or nicely compensated "voluntary" deportation.

And finally, "perpetual limbo with no real rights and no real legal recourse" is a direct correlation to violence and harm against Israel. The solution is to be found in the absence of violence and terrorism.
A couple of things.

You put voluntary in quotation marks. What exactly does that mean?

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

And no...I do not agree that Israel has ever openly acknowledged Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place. There is a degree of lip service at times but the persistent propaganda that they are “just Arab Mosley’s” or a fake people kind of makes it ring false.
 
Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

Oh come on. Now you are just parroting the same sound bytes Tinmore uses all the time.

Are you saying that indigenous or long-term peoples have no right to reclaim their homeland? That once a land is invaded, conquered and colonized that the existing peoples have no rights?! That if you live there -- its yours? Cool. Then Israel conquered the shit out of that place and they live there and its theirs now.

You are literally the last person on this board with even a shred of balanced thinking. Please don't give in to the simple sound bytes.
 
15th post
Honestly much of the onus to begin this is on the Palestinian side ...
Could not possibly agree more.

What Israel can do is openly, with out qualifications recognize the Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place ...
I believe this has been acknowledged by Israel for a hundred years and counting.

Be cognizant that from it’s founding...Israel is a multi ethnic multi religious state. There should be no preferred class. That is one concern with the new national law...
Hard no on this one.

First, there is NO preferred "class" in Israel, all people are equal under the law.

Second, Israel's founding was SPECIFICALLY to address the self-determination of the Jewish people. It was not intended to be a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- it was specifically designed to the be the ONE State in the world where Jewish culture took precedence. This is entirely normal. The break up of Yugoslavia, as an example among MANY, was NOT to create six new multi-ethnic States -- it was to create six definitive States where each could preserve and protect its own unique culture. This is not to say that newly created nations must be thoroughly ethnically cleansed. Most of these states have a minority that remained. Again, this is normal and the fact that Israel is uniquely condemned for both having an Arab minority and for alleged mistreatment of its Arab minority for this is TELLING. The fact that Israel is uniquely required to be multi-ethnic is TELLING. And frankly, no one is DEMANDING that Arab Palestine develop as a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state. In point of fact, the international community, yourself included, is DEMANDING a Jew-free state for Arab Palestine. It is DEMANDING that Jews not be included in any territory which may one day be part of an Arab Palestine state. The point is that national liberation movements revolve around unique cultural and ethnic groups and to require Israel, uniquely, to provide a "multi-ethnic" state is a double standard.

Third, the new national law is exactly identical to numerous national laws in dozens and dozens of countries. Indeed, MOST countries exist exactly for the reason to preserve and protect a specific indigenous culture, and this is especially true of new countries which have emerged in the past 100 years. Now, if you want to suggest that ALL countries created in the past 100 years based on the self-determination of a specific cultural group be rejected, please inform.

Israel MUST make a decision on those areas it controls but won’t incorperate into it’s state. It puts non Israeli citizens in a perpetual limbo with no real rights, no real legal recourse...nothing. So to put it crudely....shit or get off the pot. Offer residents full citizenship or permanent resident status...their choice. Get rid of the grotesquely unfair military justice system, put them all under Israeli civil law and be done with it. That then leaves the area under Palestinian control in a yet to be determined status.
Well, in point of international law, Israel MUST refrain from making unilateral decisions to annex disputed territory. And frankly, I'm a little surprised that you would suggest such a thing. That said, I'm actually inclined to agree with you. In the absence of either a peace process or any sort of Arab Palestinian drive toward peace, self-governance and mutual recognition, the only options are to maintain the status quo or to make unilateral decisions. The problem with annexation, of course, is the risk of creating yet another enclave of shitiness like Gaza or to create a border threat like Iran's Hezbollah in Lebanon. Neither especially good options, though perfectly manageable by Israel as already demonstrated. But, in order to avoid a civil war, on top of the threat from Gaza, from Lebanon and from a newly created West Bank Palestine, I'd be inclined to suggest that the choice of full citizenship or permanent resident status to be unworkable. For the 300,000 Arabs in the areas Israel annexes the choice should be citizenship or nicely compensated "voluntary" deportation.

And finally, "perpetual limbo with no real rights and no real legal recourse" is a direct correlation to violence and harm against Israel. The solution is to be found in the absence of violence and terrorism.
A couple of things.

You put voluntary in quotation marks. What exactly does that mean?

Israel may have been FOUNDED as a state for the Jewish people but it was placed smack dab on top a plethora of religious and ethnic people already living there.

And no...I do not agree that Israel has ever openly acknowledged Palestinians as a PEOPLE, who have rights of place. There is a degree of lip service at times but the persistent propaganda that they are “just Arab Mosley’s” or a fake people kind of makes it ring false.

Coyote still think Kavanaugh is guilty? Please spare me your history lesson. The Jews took back their land via conquest. If you and your Islamist terror buddies want it back then come and take. Please. We don’t need another mostly Islamist country as all
Mostly Muslim countries are simply not on par with modern values. In fact you cannot even name one. Thank goodness for Israel.
 
Coyote said:
To me it means that we have to first define what it means to be free. To me it means freedom from oppressive rule, a representative form of government, a recognition of basic rights and freedoms: freedom to worship, travel, speak and a free media. It neans equality of fundamental rights across the population.

In regards to Palestine, it means and end to ambiguosly governed territories where a segment of the population resides under military law and the under the far more rights conscious civil law.

It means that those territories either become fully autonomous or they become fully Istaeli with complete and equal citizenship for all residents in either case, and a constitutional protection for the freedom of minorities.
Like The Pali's Enjoy In Jordan ??
 
The Jewish people did not, in fact, take back the sovereignty over their homeland by conquest. They returned and created sovereignty in their historical homelands through peaceful and legal means, with the full blessing of the international community recognizing their existing right to do so.
 

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