What does everyone think of this guy?

[Isaac Brock]

Just one quick question:

Does one's duty to our country supercede one's duty to one's morals?

 

[insein]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just one quick question:

Does one's duty to our country supercede one's duty to one's morals?

Well he was moral enough to join during peacetime and receive our tax money. So now his morals come in to question when its time to fight?

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just one quick question:

Does one's duty to our country supercede one's duty to one's morals?

Once you're in the military, you've taken an oathe of service. If you refuse to fight, you're going back on your honor. If you think your righteousness in not helping the rest of the country bear this burden outweighs your honor, then, by all means, go AWOL and accept our judgement of you as a coward (that's what happens when you go back on your honor) until such time that history proves us wrong, if it ever does. Now, the big question I have for these guys is, "Why now?" If they think this war is immoral enough that they consider protesting it more important than an oath to the country, then why didn't they say anything until more than a year after the war started. Surely they realized they could have been activated at any time. Why didn't they go to their commander at the beginning of the war, or any time after it started, anyway, and explain their problem, then file for consciencious objector status. That would be fine with me. Keeping silent until you find out you're being activated, then filing as a consciencious objector or running away and claiming it was in protest of the war just tells me that you're a coward looking for an excuse.

For example: Say I'm in the reserves, and we (heaven forbid) go to war against Israel. Now, I'm a supporter of Israel, and I believe the prophecies of Israel regaining its land and keeping it until the rapture. Well, I'm not going to want to fight this war. My religious views mean that I don't want to fight against the Jews. However, I am still bound by an oath and owe a debt to this country. Now, instead of keeping quiet, then running like a chicken and violating my oath, I would, at the outbreak of the war, explain that I am very much opposed to fighting Israel at all, and my religious views cause me to believe this. Even if there were no 1st ammendment views, the Army would quickly realize that it's far safer to keep me away from combat, where I can't defect to Israel. I'm still helping my country, but I'm not going against my morals. How hard is that?

 

[spillmind]

Bush wasn't awol. And if you plan on replying that he was in fact awol, don't bother unless you plan on providing proof and sources.

i guess these are all totally made up by tinfoil helmets microwave interferance?

oh, and for mister hobbit:

and for the record (and to stay on topic), he shouldn't have joined up if he didn't want to serve. if you don't have the mental fortitude to resist one of those meathead recruiters, you've no one to blame.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Hobbit
Now, I'm a supporter of Elves... Now, instead of keeping quiet, then running like a chicken and violating my oath, I would, at the outbreak of the war, explain that I am very much opposed to fighting the Elves at all, and my religious views cause me to believe this. [/B]

Stinking Hairfoot Elf-Loving Hobbit. Always knew you little ones were a little soft in the belley for slant-ears.

 

[Hobbit]

What's not to like about elves? Last time they were here, they gave us a lighthouse that only lit up when orcs were near. Not only did it wake everyone up for battle, but it blinded the orcs long enough for us to eat breakfast first.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Hobbit
What's not to like about elves? Last time they were here, they gave us a lighthouse that only lit up when orcs were near. Not only did it wake everyone up for battle, but it blinded the orcs long enough for us to eat breakfast first.

That and the damn glowing blades.

And then if its not enough, you guys go and light a fire for "Supper" in the middle of the night? Damn fool hobbits!

 

[kingjames04]

There's a time to ask for selective service, it's before you sign the dotted line.

After that you're accountable to the agreement.

It's not exactly a secret in America that politicians decide when troops are sent to fight.

If you don't like it, don't enlist.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by spillmind
i guess these are all totally made up by tinfoil helmets microwave interferance?

I guess the interference is getting to you. I see nothing that proves he was awol there. Nice try, Spilly.

 

[jcon96]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Just one quick question:

Does one's duty to our country supercede one's duty to one's morals?

Gee, this is tough...........Do Not Join! If your morals were such that you should not be around prostitutes, then do not offer to play piano in the whorehouse! And for the recor, lets all keep the story straight. AWOL and desertion are two different things. I believe this spineless coward is charged with desertion. A very serious crime. As for reassigning him to a non-combat job well, he signed on the dotted line for a certain job, then when that job takes you into combat, you chicken out? This is npot the goverments fault, or the Army's fault, nor the fault of the recruiter. This rests completely on the sholders of the one person who was given numerous chances to change his mind. The coward in question.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by acludem
Cowards? I think these men are very brave. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to your country and your army when you think they are wrong. I especially find Jeremy Heinzman's case to be interesting. I'm really surprised that you hard-core Christians haven't commented on the fact that he asked for consciencous objector status based upon religious views, and that he made, IMHO, a very reasonable request to be transferred to non-combat duties. The army could've handled this, they simply chose to be arrogant and not do so. The other kid also should've been allowed to leave...give him a dishonorable discharge if you want. As for Bill O'Lielly don't believe a word he says.

acludem

If he had any objection to fighting, why join the military in the first place? Did he plan on milking the taxpayers for all it was worth and pray for peace? You think it's courageous to hide in another country? If he had any cajones at all he would have at least objected and stayed to face the music. Not only did he refuse to go to war like a coward, he then refused to face the music like a real man would.

You guys literally crack me up sometimes. The very same who constantly criticize Bush for being 'awol' will turn around and talk about this man as if he's a hero for leaving the country to avoid his duty THAT HE SWORE AND GAVE HIS WORD ON.

You obviously don't like O'reilly because of his arrogance and the fact that he bugs the shit out of the democrats. He's hardly a liar.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by spillmind
and for the record (and to stay on topic), he shouldn't have joined up if he didn't want to serve. if you don't have the mental fortitude to resist one of those meathead recruiters, you've no one to blame.

At least we can agree on this. He should have objected right then and there if he had a problem with the military. The military is filled with guns, fighter planes, tanks, knives, grenades, missiles... There's been problems with OBL for over a decade, with Iraq for nearly 15 years, NK for quite a few years now.... Did he really not 'think' before taking his vow?

Off topic, where ya been, Spilly. You were sorely missed here.

 

[acludem]

I have two uncles who served relatively long stints in the military. One served in the Navy during Vietnam, but not in Vietnam, he was stationed in the Mediterranean. The other served during Vietnam, but worked in an office in Japan. He never actually saw combat because of his eyesight. He originally joined the Air Force expecting to fly combat missions, he had some health problems that affected his sight, and he was given a NON-COMBAT job similar to what Jeremy Heinzman was asking for.

And BTW, if it's an all volunteer force, doesn't that mean they are free to leave? If I volunteer to help at a charity event, which I do frequently, I do not have to stay if I don't like what they are doing at the event. Heinzman became a Quaker, and made a very reasonable request to be transferred to a non-combat position. The other guy asked for a discharge, and probably would've accepted a dishonorable discharge. What's wrong with that?

acludem

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by acludem
I have two uncles who served relatively long stints in the military. One served in the Navy during Vietnam, but not in Vietnam, he was stationed in the Mediterranean. The other served during Vietnam, but worked in an office in Japan. He never actually saw combat because of his eyesight. He originally joined the Air Force expecting to fly combat missions, he had some health problems that affected his sight, and he was given a NON-COMBAT job similar to what Jeremy Heinzman was asking for.

And BTW, if it's an all volunteer force, doesn't that mean they are free to leave? If I volunteer to help at a charity event, which I do frequently, I do not have to stay if I don't like what they are doing at the event. Heinzman became a Quaker, and made a very reasonable request to be transferred to a non-combat position. The other guy asked for a discharge, and probably would've accepted a dishonorable discharge. What's wrong with that?

acludem

Just because you volunteered doesn't mean you get to leave when you want. If you sign up, you sign up in four year blocks. When you sign up, it is explained to you that you have to stay in for four years. If they didn't do this, then every time combat came around, there would be 10 times more cowards asking out. If he objected to the war, he should have said so when it first started. I read his stupid web site, and after sifting through the rhetoric, I found out that he claims he always disagreed with the war, meaning he should've said something when it started, not when he was called to combat.

You sign up, you serve. Plain and simple. If you decide you don't like the politics of the war, tough. You took an oath that you must fulfill, so ask if you can go for a non-combat position at the outbreak of the war and finish out your tour. Once you've done that, you can leave to live in some liberal, hippy, secularist country like Canada or France, where soldiers who don't want to fight simply surrender.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by acludem
I have two uncles who served relatively long stints in the military. One served in the Navy during Vietnam, but not in Vietnam, he was stationed in the Mediterranean. The other served during Vietnam, but worked in an office in Japan. He never actually saw combat because of his eyesight. He originally joined the Air Force expecting to fly combat missions, he had some health problems that affected his sight, and he was given a NON-COMBAT job similar to what Jeremy Heinzman was asking for.

And BTW, if it's an all volunteer force, doesn't that mean they are free to leave? If I volunteer to help at a charity event, which I do frequently, I do not have to stay if I don't like what they are doing at the event. Heinzman became a Quaker, and made a very reasonable request to be transferred to a non-combat position. The other guy asked for a discharge, and probably would've accepted a dishonorable discharge. What's wrong with that?

acludem

Theres also this thing called a contract acludem. You sign it, you fulfill it or your in breach of said contract. Volunteer means you we're not forced to sign anything and you were not drafted by your country and forced to fight in a battle you didnt want to fight in.

If we sign a business contract for me to deliver 100k protest signs to you for a democratic protest and in the contract it asks for $100k up front which you paid in full. I then decide its against my morals to deliver these signs to you and take your money and goto Canada, thats a breach of contract and i goto jail.