CDZ What do American Muslims want?

And in US..what is the fraction of Muslims are conservative enough to seek religious arbritration? When it comes to abuse should not ALL women matter? ;)

What concerns me is that virtually ALL of the NEW immigrants will be "that conservative" and carrying expectations of justice and authority that do not match their new homelands.

Why do you assume that?

Because they know no other cultural or societal reference than the theocratic hell holes they are fleeing from.
And availing themselves to a legal system that seems to VIOLATE their very beings is scary at the least and UNACCEPTABLE to them at the worst. Not to mention the constant barrage of OFFENSIVE material they see and hear from the moment they set FOOT in this country. ANY accommodation to the ways of the old country will be sought out and used.

Don't you think we're assuming a lot here? We seem to think they are all a mass of uneducated superstitious peasants incapable of moving beyond that. First off - there is a self-selection at work among those who CHOOSE to immigrate. It's no easy undertaking, it's expensive, risky, challanging. You're already looking at a group that shows itself to be flexible and forward thinking to some degree. In addition, the world is not so isolated anymore - media, social media, internet etc brings the world into every living room and puts people in contact with each other in ways never before imagined (not always good) - people are more likely to know what is going on around the world, other political systems, other social systems. I think that can have an effect.

Second, it's quite possible that the older generation will seek what is familiar to their old country. Are you going to flat out deny it? I had to write a research paper once, on immigration at the turn of the century. The largest group at the time was East European Jews, and yes, they lived in insular communities at first, they had their own Yiddish language newspapers, store signs, stores with old country merchandise and foods, and their rabbi's. I doubt they were much different than the Irish Catholics in that regard. But the thing is - they still assimilated. They still adapted to a very different culture - maybe not always the first generation, but the second. In the meantime do we have the right to deny them - or any immigrant group, access to community and religious services that they feel they need as long as the law isn't violated?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

None of them were 'immigrants'

All were here on temporary visas- tourist, business and one student visa.
 
What do American Muslims want?
I'm pretty sure the majority just want to live in peace, work and look after their families.
So "pretty sure" means you not really too sure you have it right? Got it.

Or should I say: says the self-proclaimed "Extremist Muslim". You wouldn't be trying to cover something up now, would you?
 
Last edited:
Don't you think we're assuming a lot here? We seem to think they are all a mass of uneducated superstitious peasants incapable of moving beyond that. First off - there is a self-selection at work among those who CHOOSE to immigrate. It's no easy undertaking, it's expensive, risky, challanging. You're already looking at a group that shows itself to be flexible and forward thinking to some degree. In addition, the world is not so isolated anymore - media, social media, internet etc brings the world into every living room and puts people in contact with each other in ways never before imagined (not always good) - people are more likely to know what is going on around the world, other political systems, other social systems. I think that can have an effect.

Second, it's quite possible that the older generation will seek what is familiar to their old country. Are you going to flat out deny it? I had to write a research paper once, on immigration at the turn of the century. The largest group at the time was East European Jews, and yes, they lived in insular communities at first, they had their own Yiddish language newspapers, store signs, stores with old country merchandise and foods, and their rabbi's. I doubt they were much different than the Irish Catholics in that regard. But the thing is - they still assimilated. They still adapted to a very different culture - maybe not always the first generation, but the second. In the meantime do we have the right to deny them - or any immigrant group, access to community and religious services that they feel they need as long as the law isn't violated?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

Actually, none of the hijackers were immigrants, one was here on a student visa, the rest on 6 month tourist visas or business visas.

Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]

  • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
    Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
    Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
    Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
    Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
    Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png
    Turkey's president Ahmet Necdet Sezer and prime minister Bülent Ecevit condemned the attacks. The Turkish government then ordered all of its flags at half-mast for one day of mourning.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
    Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
    Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
    Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
    Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
    Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
    Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
    Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
  • 23px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png
    Egypt's president Hosni Mubarak vehemently denounced the attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png
    Libya: Muammar Gaddafi condemned the attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Syria.svg.png
    Syria: Bashar al-Assad also condemned the attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
    Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
    Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
    Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Qatar.svg.png
    Qatar: Emir Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani condemned the 9/11 attacks and denounced the terrorists who carried them out.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Bahrain.svg.png
    Bahrain: King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa condemned the 9/11 attacks.
  • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
    Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
    • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]
 
Because they know no other cultural or societal reference than the theocratic hell holes they are fleeing from.

That makes perfect sense because, of course, those folks have no radio, television or Internet access, books and papers we read in the U.S are not ever translated into a language they understand, they've never known or met anyone who's emigrated from their home country to a place like Western Europe or the U.S. Moreover, those who do want to immigrate to the U.S. only have stated a preference for the U.S. as their destination because they blindfolded threw darts at a wall map, and the U.S. is what their dart hit. Lastly, of course, they lack the intellectual acumen to conceive that there may be a modality of social existence that differs from theirs. In other words, they are the modern day equivalent of the subjects in Plato's cave who saw only shadows on a wall from the day they were born until the day they decided they want to emigrate.

Give me a break!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm being completely serious because this now is really no laughing matter or one that deserves insults in any way. I'm not trying to be rude, condescending, castigatory, excoriative, pejorative, or anything resembling those things. I'm absolutely and truly incredulous that anyone can conjure the nature of the premises, inferences and conclusions that you have throughout this discussion with me and Coyote.

They are dying sometimes 700 a day just trying to leave these hellholes. I don't think they are reading travel reviews on Expedia or Trip Advisor. OR being picky about where they end up. Assuming they make it past being a Mediterranean menu item for the sea life.

And THEIR sources of news if they DON'T speak English are EXTREMELY limited. .

Not really- cell phones are rather ubiquitous now, and the internet is available in virtually all of the departure zones- such as Turkey. They can read the news in Turkish and in Arabic from Al Jazeer, and they can read most Western news through simple translation programs.

And they are rather picky about where they end up- which is why there are hordes trying to move past Greece to Northern Europe. They know the places that have a history of treating immigrants the best, and have the money to support immigrants and most importantly- have jobs.
 
I looked it up.. Fraction of ORTHODOX Jews in America is about 10%. That's why quoting Talmudic law and talking about Bet Din is virtually irrelevant for comparisons in THIS country.. Fraction of Catholics subject to "orthodox religious law" I assume is greater than 90%.. So leave us out of the national discussion please. :biggrin:

Now in Israel ---- those numbers reverse and the minority of Jews are secular or Reform or Conservative. The vast MAJORITY is Orthodox..

And in US..what is the fraction of Muslims are conservative enough to seek religious arbritration? When it comes to abuse should not ALL women matter? ;)

What concerns me is that virtually ALL of the NEW immigrants will be "that conservative" and carrying expectations of justice and authority that do not match their new homelands.

Why do you think that 'virtually all of the new immigrants' will be 'that conservative'?
The radicals tend to silence to others. Moderate Muslims are a buncha docile fraidy cats, lest they get seen as a bad Muslim in the community. So they tacitly approve of radical actions by keeping silent.
Or maybe they're all just a bunch of liars and all support deadly tactics.
Either way, they're a dangerous bunch of evildoers.

So you think Moderate Muslims are ' a dangerous bunch of evildoers?'
 
[
As far as the geography lesson -- I'll give you the Maldives and raise you that I see NO DIFFERENCE between the socio-political-religious fabric of a CLASSICAL Arab country and Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran. Pedigrees are not exciting me here. They ALL contain the same distasteful elements of Arab culture that I clearly laid out. With MAYBE a few "blue stars" for Pakistan which ONCE groped and flirted with openness, tolerance and democracy.

.

I think any Iranian or Pakistani or Afghani would not only disagree with you, they would be deeply offended by your characterization of their cultures being similar to 'Arab Culture'

Your broadstrokes which essentially says that there are few differences between the arab culture of Morrocco and the Iranian culture of Tehran is frankly in my opinion rather ignorant.

Each culture is distinct. Nor are what you object to distinctly "Arab" or "Muslim". The tribal regions of Pakistan are not the same as the urban centers of Islamabad.

And frankly I have lost track of what your thesis is supposed to be. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic of the thread.

The topic of this thread is 'What do American Muslims want"- and I haven't seen any discussion of that for days
 
[Q
ONE religion is under scrutiny because we are currently accelerating the immigration of folks who come from a culture of intolerance, religious domination of govt authority, and reliance on that authority to replace secular law. .

Are we?

I have heard discussions of increasing the number of refugees from the Middle East- but refugees are rather a drop in the bucket in our overall immigration numbers.

So where is this 'accelerating the immigration'?
Total American Muslim population share projected to grow

FT_16.01.05_numberMuslims-.png

That is what you call 'accelerated immigration'? LOL. No wonder you are so confused.

You confuse 'immigration' with population growth.

Population growth is immigration plus the birth rate of residents and citizens. That is not proof of 'accelerated immigration'.

Secondly- you are terrified that by 2050- Muslims might represent 2.1% of the entire population of the United States? Really?
If Muslim population is already growing rapidly, why do we need to let in more?
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

Actually, none of the hijackers were immigrants, one was here on a student visa, the rest on 6 month tourist visas or business visas.

Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]
LOL! A bunch of leaders totalling maybe 20 people condemned the attacks, while their people were dancing in the streets. Nice try, but epic fail.
 
What concerns me is that virtually ALL of the NEW immigrants will be "that conservative" and carrying expectations of justice and authority that do not match their new homelands.

Why do you assume that?

Because they know no other cultural or societal reference than the theocratic hell holes they are fleeing from.
And availing themselves to a legal system that seems to VIOLATE their very beings is scary at the least and UNACCEPTABLE to them at the worst. Not to mention the constant barrage of OFFENSIVE material they see and hear from the moment they set FOOT in this country. ANY accommodation to the ways of the old country will be sought out and used.

Don't you think we're assuming a lot here? We seem to think they are all a mass of uneducated superstitious peasants incapable of moving beyond that. First off - there is a self-selection at work among those who CHOOSE to immigrate. It's no easy undertaking, it's expensive, risky, challanging. You're already looking at a group that shows itself to be flexible and forward thinking to some degree. In addition, the world is not so isolated anymore - media, social media, internet etc brings the world into every living room and puts people in contact with each other in ways never before imagined (not always good) - people are more likely to know what is going on around the world, other political systems, other social systems. I think that can have an effect.

Second, it's quite possible that the older generation will seek what is familiar to their old country. Are you going to flat out deny it? I had to write a research paper once, on immigration at the turn of the century. The largest group at the time was East European Jews, and yes, they lived in insular communities at first, they had their own Yiddish language newspapers, store signs, stores with old country merchandise and foods, and their rabbi's. I doubt they were much different than the Irish Catholics in that regard. But the thing is - they still assimilated. They still adapted to a very different culture - maybe not always the first generation, but the second. In the meantime do we have the right to deny them - or any immigrant group, access to community and religious services that they feel they need as long as the law isn't violated?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

None of them were 'immigrants'

All were here on temporary visas- tourist, business and one student visa.
In the sense that they came here voluntarily and were hand picked by Osama. XXXX --- Mod Edit....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What do American Muslims want?
I'm pretty sure the majority just want to live in peace, work and look after their families.
So "pretty sure" means you not really too sure you have it right? Got it.

Or should I say: says the self-proclaimed "Extremist Muslim". You wouldn't be trying to cover something up now, would you?

Ah, no argument so you turn to wild suggestion without evidence.
That's a 'Trump' way to debate.
 
LOL! A bunch of leaders totalling maybe 20 people condemned the attacks, while their people were dancing in the streets. Nice try, but epic fail.

This being CDZ, please show evidence of the Trump claim of Muslims dancing in the streets of America in celebration of the attacks.

Thank you in advance for your help as I'm unable to find anything at all to prove this happened.
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

Actually, none of the hijackers were immigrants, one was here on a student visa, the rest on 6 month tourist visas or business visas.

Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]



Of course they would. Ahmet Necdet Sezer and Bulent Ecevit were the last secular president and PM of Turkey, unfortunately. They were sharing the same values and the world view with the American people

Just because they were opposing the American foreign policy in the mid east(invasion of Iraq), which later turned out to be a mistake and detrimental to the American people, US foreign policy back in the days saw them as a bottleneck, and supported the removal of seculars from power in Turkey.

Following their terms, Erdogan, a full blown islamist took power, unfortunately again backed up by US foreign policy.

Erdogan has long islamist roots. Bin Laden was cheered in a meeting of the islamist political party he was involved with(SP), before establishing his own political party(AKP).


So to summarize; US foreign policy preferred an islamist dog on a leash,
rather than a secular equal friends who are capable of giving opinions for the sake of the people of both countries



This is a very sad story... :(
 
[Q
ONE religion is under scrutiny because we are currently accelerating the immigration of folks who come from a culture of intolerance, religious domination of govt authority, and reliance on that authority to replace secular law. .

Are we?

I have heard discussions of increasing the number of refugees from the Middle East- but refugees are rather a drop in the bucket in our overall immigration numbers.

So where is this 'accelerating the immigration'?
Total American Muslim population share projected to grow

FT_16.01.05_numberMuslims-.png

That is what you call 'accelerated immigration'? LOL. No wonder you are so confused.

You confuse 'immigration' with population growth.

Population growth is immigration plus the birth rate of residents and citizens. That is not proof of 'accelerated immigration'.

Secondly- you are terrified that by 2050- Muslims might represent 2.1% of the entire population of the United States? Really?
If Muslim population is already growing rapidly, why do we need to let in more?

We don't have to let any population in.

But if we are going to allow immigrants in, we shouldn't discriminate based upon race, religion or gender.
 
Actually, none of the hijackers were immigrants, one was here on a student visa, the rest on 6 month tourist visas or business visas.

Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]
LOL! A bunch of leaders totalling maybe 20 people condemned the attacks, while their people were dancing in the streets. Nice try, but epic fail.

As I said-
Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see. And those who cannot count.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22


    • Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • Turkey's president Ahmet Necdet Sezer and prime minister Bülent Ecevit condemned the attacks. The Turkish government then ordered all of its flags at half-mast for one day of mourning.
    • Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • Syria: Bashar al-Assad also condemned the attacks.
    • Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]
 
Why do you assume that?

Because they know no other cultural or societal reference than the theocratic hell holes they are fleeing from.
And availing themselves to a legal system that seems to VIOLATE their very beings is scary at the least and UNACCEPTABLE to them at the worst. Not to mention the constant barrage of OFFENSIVE material they see and hear from the moment they set FOOT in this country. ANY accommodation to the ways of the old country will be sought out and used.

Don't you think we're assuming a lot here? We seem to think they are all a mass of uneducated superstitious peasants incapable of moving beyond that. First off - there is a self-selection at work among those who CHOOSE to immigrate. It's no easy undertaking, it's expensive, risky, challanging. You're already looking at a group that shows itself to be flexible and forward thinking to some degree. In addition, the world is not so isolated anymore - media, social media, internet etc brings the world into every living room and puts people in contact with each other in ways never before imagined (not always good) - people are more likely to know what is going on around the world, other political systems, other social systems. I think that can have an effect.

Second, it's quite possible that the older generation will seek what is familiar to their old country. Are you going to flat out deny it? I had to write a research paper once, on immigration at the turn of the century. The largest group at the time was East European Jews, and yes, they lived in insular communities at first, they had their own Yiddish language newspapers, store signs, stores with old country merchandise and foods, and their rabbi's. I doubt they were much different than the Irish Catholics in that regard. But the thing is - they still assimilated. They still adapted to a very different culture - maybe not always the first generation, but the second. In the meantime do we have the right to deny them - or any immigrant group, access to community and religious services that they feel they need as long as the law isn't violated?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. the 9/11 hijackers all VOLUNTARILY CHOSE TO IMMIGRATE to the US. They were SELF-SELECTED by OSAMA BIN LADEN. :lol:

None of them were 'immigrants'

All were here on temporary visas- tourist, business and one student visa.
In the sense that they came here voluntarily and were hand picked by Osama. I know, you don't get it. Oh well, maybe next post you'll get. :D

And again:

None of them were 'immigrants'

All were here on temporary visas- tourist, business and one student visa
 
Actually, none of the hijackers were immigrants, one was here on a student visa, the rest on 6 month tourist visas or business visas.

Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]



Of course they would. Ahmet Necdet Sezer and Bulent Ecevit were the last secular president and PM of Turkey, unfortunately. They were sharing the same values and the world view with the American people

Just because they were opposing the American foreign policy in the mid east(invasion of Iraq), which later turned out to be a mistake and detrimental to the American people, US foreign policy back in the days saw them as a bottleneck, and supported the removal of seculars from power in Turkey.

Following their terms, Erdogan, a full blown islamist took power, unfortunately again backed up by US foreign policy.

So you agree with my examples- that virtually all Muslim countries- from the most secular of the time(Turkey) to the most religiously repressive(Saudi Arabia and Iran) condemned the 9/11 attacks.
 
Like any government convenience or statistic --- these student, tourist, visas are SAFER than the TPS visas that are granted to a LOT of those 88,000 YEARLY immigrants we are discussing. Student, tourist Visas are easily revokable and constantly reviewable. The "temp. protect. Status" VISAs that are issued to those LARGE Iraq, Somali, etc fractions are an accommodation that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to revoke.

Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]



Of course they would. Ahmet Necdet Sezer and Bulent Ecevit were the last secular president and PM of Turkey, unfortunately. They were sharing the same values and the world view with the American people

Just because they were opposing the American foreign policy in the mid east(invasion of Iraq), which later turned out to be a mistake and detrimental to the American people, US foreign policy back in the days saw them as a bottleneck, and supported the removal of seculars from power in Turkey.

Following their terms, Erdogan, a full blown islamist took power, unfortunately again backed up by US foreign policy.

So you agree with my examples- that virtually all Muslim countries- from the most secular of the time(Turkey) to the most religiously repressive(Saudi Arabia and Iran) condemned the 9/11 attacks.


I do agree

And I add; this barely means anything

As I showed you; the political islamist base, the current president of Turkey did rise from, were cheering Bin Laden back then... You can conclude anything you wanted from this example now...
 
Actually I thought that those particular VISA's were a week link in security (as opposed to refugee screening) - and they are also no infrequently overstayed. I'm not familiar with "status visas". The number I was talking about though was refugees, not immigrants since it was refugees that Obama was talking about increasing.
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]



Of course they would. Ahmet Necdet Sezer and Bulent Ecevit were the last secular president and PM of Turkey, unfortunately. They were sharing the same values and the world view with the American people

Just because they were opposing the American foreign policy in the mid east(invasion of Iraq), which later turned out to be a mistake and detrimental to the American people, US foreign policy back in the days saw them as a bottleneck, and supported the removal of seculars from power in Turkey.

Following their terms, Erdogan, a full blown islamist took power, unfortunately again backed up by US foreign policy.

So you agree with my examples- that virtually all Muslim countries- from the most secular of the time(Turkey) to the most religiously repressive(Saudi Arabia and Iran) condemned the 9/11 attacks.


I do agree

And I add; this barely means anything

As I showed you; the political islamist base, the current president of Turkey did rise from, were cheering Bin Laden back then... You can conclude anything you wanted from this example now...

I just wanted to clear up my point before I go on and agree on the danger of Islamic extremism- and I agree with you regarding Erdogan being the danger he is.

How did Erdogan take power with the backing of U.S. foreign policy?
 
I must have missed all of the US and other Western Muslim marches against Al-Qaeda after 9/11. So as to what do Muslims want? In this case, not to be seen as against the 9/11 attacks.

Of course you missed all of the reaction against the 9/11 attacks- you are absolutely determined to see nothing but evil.

After 9/11 most of the Muslims world- including Muslims in the United States condemned the attacks- but you wouldn't remember that- because to you- Muslims are all terrorists.

In a Joint Statement by the American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:[4]


American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.


Almost all Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks. The leaders vehemently denouncing the attacks included the leaders of Egypt (Hosni Mubarak), the Palestinian Authority (Yasser Arafat), Libya (Muammar Gaddafi), Syria (Bashar al-Assad), Iran (Mohamed Khatami) and Pakistan (Pervez Musharraf).[4][20] The sole exception was Iraq, when the then-president Saddam Hussein, said of the attacks that "the American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity".[21] Saddam would later offer sympathy to the Americans killed in the attacks.[22]




    • 23px-Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg.png
      Bangladesh: People gathered in mosques in prayer, and clerics condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png
      Indonesia: Many Indonesians gathered on beaches to pray for the victims of the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kazakhstan.svg.png
      Kazakhstan offered the use of its airspace for relief and offered its condolences.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kyrgyzstan.svg.png
      Kyrgyzstan: The government of Kyrgyzstan offered its condolences, as well as the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Tajikistan.svg.png
      Tajikistan: People gathered in squares to light candles, prayed and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Turkmenistan.svg.png
      Turkmenistan offered its condolences and offered the use of its airspace for relief.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg.png
      Uzbekistan: Leaders in Uzbekistan called the White House to offer its condolences and also offered the use of its airspace.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Azerbaijan.svg.png
      Azerbaijan: Azerbaijanis gathered in town squares to light candles, pray and offered good wishes.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Sudan.svg.png
      Sudan: Leaders and Clerics in Sudan denounced the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Pakistan.svg.png
      Pakistan: Islamic clerics in Pakistani mosques condemned the attacks.[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Yemen.svg.png
      Yemen: Clerics in Yemeni mosques heavily denounced the attacks and labelled them as "cowardly" and "un-Islamic".[10]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png
      Saudi Arabia's government and the royal Saudi family condemned and denounced the attacks and offered to provide financial aid to the victims.[citation needed]
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iraq.svg.png
      Iraq: After first justifying the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein, a few months later, offered his sympathy for the victims and Americans killed in the attacks.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Jordan.svg.png
      Jordan: King Abdullah II condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many Jordanians signed letters of sympathy.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png
      Kuwait: The Kuwaiti government condemned and denounced the 9/11 attacks. Some Kuwaitis lined up at local Red Crescent hospitals to donate blood.
    • 23px-Flag_of_Iran.svg.png
      Iran: Despite Iran's rocky relations with the U.S., both Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei condemned and denounced the attacks and the terrorists who carried out the attacks. Iranians who gathered for a soccer match in Tehran two days after the 9/11 attacks observed a moment of silence. There was also a candlelight vigil.
      • Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute's silence at Tehran's soccer stadium.[23][24]



Of course they would. Ahmet Necdet Sezer and Bulent Ecevit were the last secular president and PM of Turkey, unfortunately. They were sharing the same values and the world view with the American people

Just because they were opposing the American foreign policy in the mid east(invasion of Iraq), which later turned out to be a mistake and detrimental to the American people, US foreign policy back in the days saw them as a bottleneck, and supported the removal of seculars from power in Turkey.

Following their terms, Erdogan, a full blown islamist took power, unfortunately again backed up by US foreign policy.

So you agree with my examples- that virtually all Muslim countries- from the most secular of the time(Turkey) to the most religiously repressive(Saudi Arabia and Iran) condemned the 9/11 attacks.


I do agree

And I add; this barely means anything

As I showed you; the political islamist base, the current president of Turkey did rise from, were cheering Bin Laden back then... You can conclude anything you wanted from this example now...

I just wanted to clear up my point before I go on and agree on the danger of Islamic extremism- and I agree with you regarding Erdogan being the danger he is.

How did Erdogan take power with the backing of U.S. foreign policy?


US foreign policy makers have variety of tools at their disposal, to be able to create a desired status in a region, the way they see fit in parallel to the US interests.

The definition of US interests however is a highly controversial and debatable topic, where the invasion of Iraq;
* may be considered as against US interests while the majority of the people of this country suffered both physically, psychologically and economically
* and at the same time may be considered as for US interests where US defense contractors quadrupled up their share values

Will leave that part for another discussion, but I consider the invasion of Iraq being a success and for US interests, in the framework of policy makers have put it, and this is how they pulled it off in Turkey so she is not a bottleneck, but a help;


Ergenekon trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Deep State - The New Yorker

SpyTalk - Islamic group is CIA front, ex-Turkish intel chief says



US used her resources to remove Turkish seculars from power, and install islamists in place... Because Turkish seculars were against the invasion of Iraq
Turkish seculars saw the invasion being detrimental to the Turkish people,... the American people,... for the people of the whole world...
And they were right...

Too bad they are being hunted and murdered on the streets of Istanbul by the islamists now... :(
 
Last edited:
From reading your since deleted comments, I don't feel safe continuing this discussion in this thread. So I'm out...I can only stand so much micro-aggression before I return to my safe space.

Red:
Yes...about that...I was very careful to diplomatically word those paragraphs so they concerned the ideas you have been expressing and not you. I did that expressly so they could not be shown to be illustrative of personal affrontery while clearly expressing the nature and extent to which the thematic and literal ontology of your lines of argument genuinely mortify me.

That it is now manifest that sternly unequivocal upbraids of thoughts presented by a moderator, namely you, is subject to summary deletion, though leaving me dyspeptic, assures too that I shall henceforth not willfully address your remarks. On that you can rely and therein find succor.


I'm curious about what he said that elicited that blistering onslaught of diplomacy of yours?

Was it his pointing out quite correctly that those fleeing the war torn areas of Syria were likely to be socially conservative? If so, that is just common knowledge and should go without saying. Heck, in one province of Syria, the consanguinity rate is over 70%. That is some serious inbreeding there, folks.

That sort of social conservatism makes Fred Phelps look like Gore Vidal in comparison.
 

Forum List

Back
Top