Was Moses just high?

[Shogun]

However, I still havn't seen today's "druggies" write any interesting books about positive revelations that they've had (in regards to the human soul)

this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Not a fan of Kerouak? Benzedrine is a drug, you know. Ginsberg and the rest of the beats? Does alcohol qualify? What writer WASNT an alcoholic?

In regards to the human soul? what does that even mean? What art isn't an expression of the human soul? whatever the human soul is.

 

[BrianH]

Shogun you can type in caps and spew all of the anti-religious crap that you want. It's still not going to convince me or any other christian otherwise. If you were have as intelligent as you think, you could get on the message boards and have a decent discussion instead of attacking someone's beliefs. I didn't get on here and start attacking what Ravir had said, I simply made and argument for my case. I respect his opinions and beliefs. You should do the same with other people. I could sit here and think up of some retarded personal attack to explain your opinion and belief, but I respect people enough to respect their beliefs. If you were truly as educated as you feel that you are, you would understand that it's posts like yours that don't make any since. Respect is earned, and so far you have none from me.

 

[Larkinn]

I do agree that cultures have been taking drugs for centuries. I mean, check out our society today. However, I still havn't seen today's "druggies" write any interesting books about positive revelations that they've had (in regards to the human soul)

Making up new religions is a bit out of fashion these days. However there are plenty of "druggie" writers who have very interesting things to say about life and living. Kerouac for one.

I guess my point about that is that why not have faith in God?

Why stop there? Why not believe I'm your God and come worship me? While your at it, I'll take the 10% tithe.

Who says that you have to pretend?

Err if you are saying believe in God because "why not?", thats pretty much pretending. Unless you are so gullible and weak-willed that saying "why not?" can convince you.

I guess it's a little more complicated than getting passed the pretend part. But my whole point of that statement was that whether you pretend, or believe it fully, it's a win win situation.

Not quite.

For those who don't believe in an eternal afterlife, we will all die and rot in a box. That's really not anything to look forward to. But what if those people are wrong? They will be condemned. Ok so what if you believe in God and it turns out he does exist, then your saved. But if he doesn't exist, then it's no harm done and you're back where you started. I'm, in no way, suggesting that anyone pretend to believe in God, however, if pretending to believe in God actually opens the door for you really believing in God, I'm all for it.

Pascals Wager. There are numerous problems with this.

1) There are many religions each of which say I'll go to hell if I don't believe in them. Ahhhh, so many to choose from!

2) It completely ignores the value of the present life. Sorry, but I rather like my sunday mornings devoted to things that I care about (i.e. not going to Church). Further, I don't much like religious folk and it would suck to have to spend so much time with y'all. Present value matters and by sacraficing that, if you are wrong, you may well ruin the only chance you get. Now a lot of people like being religious (actually most religious people like it...if they didn't, they wouldn't be religious...so much for "faith")...and if you like it, have at it. Just don't try and convince me to like it.

There are alot of things in the Bible that are unanswered and illogical,

Yup.

There is, however, factual evidence that Jesus was a real person and did roam the middle-east speaking about God. Part of the Bible is a testament to what he did. It's a proven fact that he existed.

Yes it is. Its also a proven fact that L. Ron Hubbard existed. That doesn't mean Scientology is true.

Don't let hypocritical and bigotrous radical chistians destroy your view of religion and christianity. I'm a Christian, but don't personally care for religion. IN my eyes, everyone's going for the same goal, they just have different ways of doing. (Catholics, Babtists, Muslims, Jews, etc...) There are alot of Christians out there who will not "persecute" you for not believing. There are radical Christians the same as their are radical Muslims.

Cheers.

As far as the drug part, I think it is a good topic worth discussing. I think there is good evidence of cultures using drugs, but I just don't think that their is any evidence at all to suggest the Moses was high or that the guy in revelations was "zoinked." I think it all boils down to personal opinion, and because everyone has a different opinion, we could argue about this for weeks. Which I guess is what this forum is all about. lol

Well there is no evidence...and that means its faith! Which is why the beliefs about it are so wonderful!

 

[Shogun]

Shogun you can type in caps and spew all of the anti-religious crap that you want. It's still not going to convince me or any other christian otherwise. If you were have as intelligent as you think, you could get on the message boards and have a decent discussion instead of attacking someone's beliefs. I didn't get on here and start attacking what Ravir had said, I simply made and argument for my case. I respect his opinions and beliefs. You should do the same with other people. I could sit here and think up of some retarded personal attack to explain your opinion and belief, but I respect people enough to respect their beliefs. If you were truly as educated as you feel that you are, you would understand that it's posts like yours that don't make any since. Respect is earned, and so far you have none from me.

I don't really care to convince you of anything. You see, IM not the type that wants to drag you, kicking and screaming, into my ideology. Atheism doesn't have a dog in your race.


If I were HAVE as intellegent as I think? uh huh.

NO, you got on this thread and specifically attacked what I said MY opinion was about the author of revelations and continued to make rediculous statements about drug users. Would you like me to quote you or would that be a little too much physical evidence? I know, your shit don't stink. I should have probably known that.


Don't make any SINCE? Clearly.


I assure you that collecting your approval is probably very low on my list of shit that I really don't care about.

 

[BrianH]

You know, any 10-year old get get on a forum, pick apart someone's paragraph and sarcastically make comments. This shows your unwillingness to respect and accept the beliefs of others. You can believe all you want to believe. I'm not preaching for you to all become Christian. You can do what you want. I'm simply giving my side of the argument in as respectful was as possible. Which is nothing I can say for some of you. Ravir seems to be the only intelligent one in here. By the way, intelligence isn't reciting books that other people of written, it's being able to intellectually have a discussion with someone without resorting to childish attacks.

"Making up new religions is a bit out of fashion these days. However there are plenty of "druggie" writers who have very interesting things to say about life and living. Kerouac for one."

--What do you call scientology? Mormonanism started in the 1800s.

"Why stop there? Why not believe I'm your God and come worship me? While your at it, I'll take the 10% tithe"

--not that this even warrants an answer, but that doesn't exist anymore. People who do that do it willingly. I don't give %10 .

The rest of your statements are pure assinine. Learn the difference between religion and spirituality. Believe it or not, there is a difference. And about your Sundays, I can be just as much with God, sitting in boat in the bay fishing. So don't generalize.

The Bible says nothing of going to church everyday, or what religion is the right religion. So don't feed me that "I want free Sundays" bull. And don't attack me because you have qualms about certain religions.

 

[Shogun]

You know, any 10-year old get get on a forum, pick apart someone's paragraph and sarcastically make comments.

what.... was the threat of posting your quote as evidence a little too harsh for your victim mentality? I take it you didn't want to admit which of us was the first to toss down the gauntlet? Figures.


This shows your unwillingness to respect and accept the beliefs of others. You can believe all you want to believe. I'm not preaching for you to all become Christian. You can do what you want. I'm simply giving my side of the argument in as respectful was as possible. Which is nothing I can say for some of you.

HA! yea, I tellya... your first post addressing my suspicions about Revelations was OOOOOZING with respect!

Indeed, YOUR SIDE always seems to be a tantrum fit thrown when physical evidence conveys otherwise, eh? In this case, again, which of us specifically mentioned the others post? I know.. I am being JUST LIKE a roman.


Ravir seems to be the only intelligent one in here. By the way, intelligence isn't reciting books that other people of written, it's being able to intellectually have a discussion with someone without resorting to childish attacks.

Hey, thanks for the lecture! I probably really do care about weather or not you think reciting evidence and facts is as necessary to an intelligent conversation as someone stomping their feet. CLEARLY all debate and conversation is the product of a nice tea and crumpet visit that is prefaced by niceties and a man hug.



I used that smiley just for you.

 

[Larkinn]

You know, any 10-year old get get on a forum, pick apart someone's paragraph and sarcastically make comments.

How many 10 year olds know Pascals wager?

This shows your unwillingness to respect and accept the beliefs of others. You can believe all you want to believe. I'm not preaching for you to all become Christian. You can do what you want.

It sounds quite preachy imo.

I'm simply giving my side of the argument in as respectful was as possible. Which is nothing I can say for some of you.

Some of your arguments deserve to be mocked, honestly. Arguing religion from an objective standard is absurd. If you want to believe it, go for it, but there is NO rational reason for it. Want to call it faith, belief, hope, dreams, whatever, but its irrational. Rationality isn't, however, the only thing that matters. But its bothersome when religion tries to get passed off as this rational like with arguments like Pascals Wager.

Ravir seems to be the only intelligent one in here. By the way, intelligence isn't reciting books that other people of written, it's being able to intellectually have a discussion with someone without resorting to childish attacks.

Actually intelligence is a combination of a whole host of things. By the way, I didn't attack you at all, only your arguments.

--What do you call scientology? Mormonanism started in the 1800s.

And generally people mock both of those religions. Romney didn't get very far, now did he? Whats happened to Tom Cruises career?

--not that this even warrants an answer, but that doesn't exist anymore. People who do that do it willingly. I don't give %10 .

Thats not really the point. The point is that if your argument is "why not?", I can make that argument go a lot further to a lot more absurd extremes. It only sounds like a good argument to you because you already believe it.

The rest of your statements are pure assinine.

I thought intelligence was not making childish attacks? Does this mean you don't consider yourself intelligent?

Learn the difference between religion and spirituality. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

I know the difference. We are talking about Christianity, correct? That is a religion. Spirituality has not, as of yet, entered into the conversation.

And about your Sundays, I can be just as much with God, sitting in boat in the bay fishing. So don't generalize.

We are talking in generalities, so I pretty much have too. The point, which you missed by being over-speicific, is that religion requires things of you. Things I am uninterested in doing, and hence believing what you believe DOES cost me. Its not a "win-win" situation.

The Bible says nothing of going to church everyday, or what religion is the right religion.

Doesn't it have that whole bit about false idols and I am the real god, and shit like that?

And don't attack me because you have qualms about certain religions.

I didn't attack you, only your religion. Well and some of the stupider arguments you made for your religion.

 

[BrianH]

I copy and pasted the quote from my first post.

"But that is an argument that comes from an indivudual that either does not believe in the concept of God or is having trouble with the whole concept. As far as revelation goes, who said that the "guy" was "zoinked?" Is there some other book supported by facts that suggests this?"

-What constitutes this as a personal attack? It's a factual statement. I was not meaning it to be negative. Are you mad that I put the word "zoink" in quotes? It sounds like you're just mad that I responded at all to your statement.

-"But that is an argument that comes from an indivudual that either does not believe in the concept of God or is having trouble with the whole concept."

-Would you say that you do not believe in the concept of God? If you don't, then that statement was correct. (I'm not condemning you or judging you, I just made statement)

"As far as revelation goes, who said that the "guy" was "zoinked?" Is there some other book supported by facts that suggests this?"

-How do you take this as a personal attack. It's one of the most moderate statements I've ever seen. I just asked where you got that information from. Who said he was zoinked? You said you know for sure he was "zoinked out of his gourd." And I asked if you had facts to support it.

You are taking these comments way too personal and responding with even more personal attacks. Don't get mad because someone disagrees with you. I could have thought of plenty other personal attacks if I had really wanted to do that.

I'm going to pretend that you aren't generalizing me with othe "christian" people that you talk about. I'm not judging anyone in hear, a groomsman in my wedding is an Athiest. So don't include me in the self-righteous christian category when I'm not.

I still respect your views even though you attack me constantly. I'm not saying that I know for sure that everything that I say about religion is correct, I'm just presenting my view.

 

[Shogun]

Just as I was presenting my view.

you ASSUME that the only reason a person would hold the influence of drugs relevant was merely because of their non-belief.. you know, instead of, say, a plethora of earlier religions who, IN FACT, practiced the same thing. Not to mention, given the water to wine episode and numerous other sketchy versus, that it's not altogether improbably that mind altering drugs had quite a bit to do with the origin of books in the bible.


If you want to feel like a victim here then be my guest. Clearly, by insisting that intelligent debate is always the product of reasonable, peaceful interaction you forgot why jebus himself told you that he brings not peace but...


maybe you can humor an atheist and fill in the rest of that verse.

 

[BrianH]

Larkinn I apolize for making childish comments, can you blame someone who others are trying to make look like an idiot?

For some reason, you think that I'm trying to make an argument for everyone to "believe" "my religion." I was simply answering the question that was posted, "Was Moses Just High?" I gave my opinions and my reasons why I thought that way. You guys have gone on to attack Christianity, which as nothing to do with the topic. You're seeing this as black and white/ christians against non-christians, and that's not what this is about at all.

For some reason, you guys think that because I am a Christian, my words mean nothing. I've taken into consideration what you say without immediately bashing it, unless whatever you said was used to belittle me, then I disregarded and also thought of something childish to say (for that I apologize).

 

[Shogun]

Quote:
The rest of your statements are pure assinine.

I thought intelligence was not making childish attacks? Does this mean you don't consider yourself intelligent?


aaaand there you have it, folks.

I should probably be taking notes on what good debate looks like.

 

[BrianH]

Read my last post and you'll see that I apologized for the chilidish attacks.

Shogun, you're still so full of disrespect that even after I've told you that I respect your view, you still are finding some way to attack. The issue is not whether I'm playing the victim or not, I can hold my own any day. The issue talking about the topic and not attacking someone else. No matter what way you put it, my first comment was not a personal attack, but a valid observation. How many christians do you know would believe that everything they believe was brought about by hollucinating drugs? None...therefore someone who would consider that to be an option would be a non-christian, it's a simple as that.

 

[Larkinn]

Larkinn I apolize for making childish comments, can you blame someone who others are trying to make look like an idiot?

Shogun is, I'm not. You don't seem like an idiot, although your arguments for religion seem absurd and do deserve some mockery.

For some reason, you think that I'm trying to make an argument for everyone to "believe" "my religion."

Because you provided arguments why I should believe your religion. Remember the whole "win-win" bit?

I was simply answering the question that was posted, "Was Moses Just High?" I gave my opinions and my reasons why I thought that way. You guys have gone on to attack Christianity, which as nothing to do with the topic. You're seeing this as black and white/ christians against non-christians, and that's not what this is about at all.

I've attacked Allie, who is a moron and who likes to spew about how religion is great. I attacked your arguments mostly because of the argument for Pascals Wager.

For some reason, you guys think that because I am a Christian, my words mean nothing.

No, I think because I've heard the arguments before and discussed them at great length with extremely intelligent individuals that your words mean nothing. I dismissed your arguments because they were absurd. Not because of who you are or what your religion is.

 

[Larkinn]

Quote:
The rest of your statements are pure assinine.

I thought intelligence was not making childish attacks? Does this mean you don't consider yourself intelligent?


aaaand there you have it, folks.

I should probably be taking notes on what good debate looks like.

I thought I was such a mental incompetent, could never stand up to everyone, and everyone on this board hated me?

Stop being such a **** to this kid. His arguments are shit, but he seems like a nice enough guy.

 

[BrianH]

I provided, arguments about why I believe the wayt hat I do. I simply answered the question that was posted by supporting my view and not attacking anyone else. You guys responded, not in way to convince me of your argument, but to redicule me for my beliefs. Rediculing a man's family is the same as rediculing him.

My words are upsurd to you just as your words are upsurd to me. You don't recognize what I'm saying because you simply don't agree. That's fine, you don't have to agree, but at least be respectful about it. I don't agree with the way you believe, but you don't hear me telling you that you're going to hell for you belief, and that God's wrath will pour onto you or that you're the scum of our earth because you don't believe in God. I've said nothing that at self-righteous fire-and-brimstone radical Christian would say. I'm smart enough to realize that there are valid reasons for the way you believe, but I don't bash you on them.

 

[Shogun]

The Anointing Oil
22 Then the Lord said to Moses, 23 “Collect choice spices—12½ pounds of pure myrrh, 6¼ pounds of fragrant cinnamon, 6¼ pounds of fragrant calamus,[a] 24 and 12½ pounds of cassia—as measured by the weight of the sanctuary shekel. Also get one gallon of olive oil.[c] 25 Like a skilled incense maker, blend these ingredients to make a holy anointing oil.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2030:22-25;&version=51;


Calamus or Common Sweet Flag (Acorus calamus) is a plant from the Acoraceae family, Acorus genues. It is a tall perennial wetland monocot with scented leaves and rhizomes which have been used medicinally, for its odor, and as a psychotropic drug. It is known by a variety of names, including cinnamon sedge, flagroot, gladdon, myrtle flag, myrtle grass, myrtle sedge, sweet cane, sweet myrtle, sweet root, sweet rush, and sweet sedge. Probably indigenous to India, Acorus calamus is now found across Europe, in southern Russia, northern Asia Minor, southern Siberia, China, Japan, Burma, Sri Lanka, southern Canada and northern USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_flag


eat me. Nice enough guy or not his assumption that non-belief is the origin of such a drug influence on the bible and automatic victim complex don't validate his, uh, expertise on debate.. And, apparently, scripture.

 

[BrianH]

The Anointing Oil

How many people you see in church light up, drink, or sniff annointing oil?

I suppose your going to quote some section of the Bible that can be misconstrued as a meth lab too.

 

[BrianH]

The funny thing about scripture Shogun, is that it's interpreted differently by differnt people. That's why you have different churches and that's why some people don't believe. If you'd like to assume that that passage means that the Moses was getting high off of annointing, go ahead. You can't take something that your not sure of and pass it off as fact. Until you show me scripture that says Moses got high and started hollucinating, you can talk trash all you want.

 

[Shogun]

what was the title of this thread again?

was MOSES JUST HIGH?


oh yea.. silly me . how confrontational to remind you of that. Further, how silly to think that the author of Revelations who ALSO mentions eating something sweet that was bitter to his stomach which leads to such cartoonish visions might, in FACT, be a direct reflection of a cult that sprung out of the religion of.. Moses...



indeed... I really did say anything about widespread use of psychedelics used by modern christains, didn't I? Did mentioning a meth lab pacify your need to feel like the victim?

 

[Larkinn]

I provided, arguments about why I believe the wayt hat I do. I simply answered the question that was posted by supporting my view and not attacking anyone else. You guys responded, not in way to convince me of your argument, but to redicule me for my beliefs. Rediculing a man's family is the same as rediculing him.

I was ridiculing your beliefs, not you. Do you understand the difference?

My words are upsurd to you just as your words are upsurd to me. You don't recognize what I'm saying because you simply don't agree.

Not quite, no. Pascals Wager is absurd. Any belief you have you should be able to back up, argue, and support. Pascals Wager always fails because it is, in essence, a bad argument.

That's fine, you don't have to agree, but at least be respectful about it. I don't agree with the way you believe, but you don't hear me telling you that you're going to hell for you belief, and that God's wrath will pour onto you or that you're the scum of our earth because you don't believe in God.

Think about your beliefs a bit more before you share them, and you'll find that people are more respectful.

I've said nothing that at self-righteous fire-and-brimstone radical Christian would say. I'm smart enough to realize that there are valid reasons for the way you believe, but I don't bash you on them.

The difference is that there aren't rational reasons for what you believe. There just aren't. It sucks for you, and you can get around that fact, but don't pretend that they are and say "oh, well we just have a difference of opinion".