Was it really necessary to gun down the Capitol Hill chase driver?

[emilynghiem]

How did they know the car wasn't packed with explosives? It is an extremely sensitive area, after all.

How would shooting her improve that situation?

Dear Sallow and Posters:
Has anyone answered the question
why didn't police shoot out her tires when she stopped
and they had surrounded the car
before she drove off again?

 

[emilynghiem]

duplicate post

I don't know why I can't delete this post but it posted another duplicate instead
sorry

I guess what I will post here is criticism that
the Navy shooter and this female driver
could have gotten help with their issues
through spiritual healing which is free
and has been shown to cure causes
not just medicate symptoms of mental imbalance

so the health care costs that only pay for medications
can neither pay for nor regulate spiritual healing
and yet it is the solution to cutting costs of
addiction, mental and physical illness, crime
and treatment and incarceration etc after that

 

[emilynghiem]

Post Partum Psychosis

Could Postpartum Psychosis Symptoms Explain The Capitol Hill Shooting?

Veering from the topic being discussed but this seems relevant.

I don't know what can be done about the many variations of mental illness.

As far as driving a car erratically around the WH and Capitol--I would expect that the highest levels of security/defense are applied. Hypervigiliance--that is part of life today.

Someone with expertise commented last night that this woman had received adequate/good care for her issues but with the types of medication prescribed there were risks inherent. I believe she was taking rispodral?--used with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder--mood stabilizer and lexapro--antidepressant. Either or both of these drugs 'might' have the capability of increasing, agitating other issues. I just don't think we have advanced far enough to know all that is necessary.

That's about all I have to say. There may be 'someone' to blame or something--at this point I can only feel sadness that anyone suffers from such an affliction. If you are hearing voices ==I don't suppose it would be possible to think coherently--pick up the phone and notify a doctor or family member.

I have treated many cases of psychosis and mania. There are only a few instances in which the meds exacerbate a problem. If a person is in the manic phase of bipolar disorder, an SSRI like Lexapro without a concomitant mood stabilizer, which Risperdal is not, the person will become psychotic within 6 months of starting the drug. Too many OBGYNs treat mental illness. They simply don't have the expertise to treat major mental illnesses. Most of them do not know that an SSRI without a mood stabilizer in a manic is a dangerous drug to give. If she had true post partum psychosis, the Risperdal was appropriate, but likely not high enough. We don't really know if she was manic or not, but if she was a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Lithium would should have been given BEFORE an SSRI was started.

I practiced in psychiatry for 25 years, 17 or so years of that as an NP. I took Advanced Psychopharmacology at Vanderbilt and Advanced General Pharmacology at UAH. Most doctors do not get an advanced course in psychopharmacology, they only get general pharm and learn in practice. I was very successful in the treatment of patients, it was the Advanced Psychopharm that made the difference.

I thought she had been hospitalized--several times and assumed that psychiatrists prescribed these meds. But, yes--as you explained--there are factors to consider.

Did this woman provide correct feedback to the healthcare providers? Was she capable of accurately describing symptoms--and so on--as I am certain that you know.

It might have been Dr. Drew--someone mentioned that some patients ? while experiencing mania?/hearing voices--are aware that 'something is wrong' and then become reluctant to tell others the exact nature of the problem.

What would it take to diagnose more precisely--some sort of brain scans--I am asking because I do not know. Whatever it would take--it would involve $$$$$$$$$ and that will always be a problem.

eta: another article reports that she sustained a significant head injury from a fall down some steps. So there's that, too.

RE: whatever it would take would involve $$$$$

not actually
spiritual healing is free and the same people with this gift
often have gifts or work in teams with people who can help diagnose
where people's sickness is rooted in, where the patients AGREE what is
the issue preventing them from healing

it doesn't have to cost money

I agree with the posts that a lot of the medication and psychiatry
makes money off serving the symptoms and not curing the cause

spiritual healing has been shown to cure schizophrenia, suicidal depression and cutting,
addictions and other abuse, even multiple personalities caused by spiritual sickness
that forgiveness therapy has been able to heal where medicine alone couldn't

 

[emilynghiem]

Well all be damned. Can I lay on your couch and talk about my feelings?

Just kidding, LOL.

PS I know you were kidding
but in reality a lot of healing
happens by talking out memories that hold unforgiven emotions attached
and releasing these

the forgiveness factor
has been shown to heal people's health and relationships
even through secular scientific studies

so this is the key to health care
and is on a personal spiritual level
that cannot be mandated much less regulated by govt

 

[Noomi]

She had a baby in the backseat. The cops shot that woman, who was unarmed, in front of her own baby. She was unarmed. If they were concerned about a bomb they wouldn't have been close enough to fire the killing shots, instead, they would have been running like mad.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Post Partum Psychosis

Could Postpartum Psychosis Symptoms Explain The Capitol Hill Shooting?

Veering from the topic being discussed but this seems relevant.

I don't know what can be done about the many variations of mental illness.

As far as driving a car erratically around the WH and Capitol--I would expect that the highest levels of security/defense are applied. Hypervigiliance--that is part of life today.

Someone with expertise commented last night that this woman had received adequate/good care for her issues but with the types of medication prescribed there were risks inherent. I believe she was taking rispodral?--used with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder--mood stabilizer and lexapro--antidepressant. Either or both of these drugs 'might' have the capability of increasing, agitating other issues. I just don't think we have advanced far enough to know all that is necessary.

Great point.

That's about all I have to say. There may be 'someone' to blame or something--at this point I can only feel sadness that anyone suffers from such an affliction. If you are hearing voices ==I don't suppose it would be possible to think coherently--pick up the phone and notify a doctor or family member.

I have done lots of research on mental illness. It's one of my favorite topics, and basically, my profession is research.

It depends if the voices are threatening or not or whether the mental patient is coyly having a conversation with his or herself. And how strongly do the voices affect the patient? I'm sure most sufferers of voices have only minor difficulty with them.

 

[chikenwing]

Yes.

People like you and the cops are by far more of a threat then that women was.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Post Partum Psychosis

Could Postpartum Psychosis Symptoms Explain The Capitol Hill Shooting?

Veering from the topic being discussed but this seems relevant.

I don't know what can be done about the many variations of mental illness.

As far as driving a car erratically around the WH and Capitol--I would expect that the highest levels of security/defense are applied. Hypervigiliance--that is part of life today.

Someone with expertise commented last night that this woman had received adequate/good care for her issues but with the types of medication prescribed there were risks inherent. I believe she was taking rispodral?--used with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder--mood stabilizer and lexapro--antidepressant. Either or both of these drugs 'might' have the capability of increasing, agitating other issues. I just don't think we have advanced far enough to know all that is necessary.

That's about all I have to say. There may be 'someone' to blame or something--at this point I can only feel sadness that anyone suffers from such an affliction. If you are hearing voices ==I don't suppose it would be possible to think coherently--pick up the phone and notify a doctor or family member.

I have treated many cases of psychosis and mania. There are only a few instances in which the meds exacerbate a problem. If a person is in the manic phase of bipolar disorder, an SSRI like Lexapro without a concomitant mood stabilizer, which Risperdal is not, the person will become psychotic within 6 months of starting the drug. Too many OBGYNs treat mental illness. They simply don't have the expertise to treat major mental illnesses. Most of them do not know that an SSRI without a mood stabilizer in a manic is a dangerous drug to give. If she had true post partum psychosis, the Risperdal was appropriate, but likely not high enough. We don't really know if she was manic or not, but if she was a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Lithium would should have been given BEFORE an SSRI was started.

I practiced in psychiatry for 25 years, 17 or so years of that as an NP. I took Advanced Psychopharmacology at Vanderbilt and Advanced General Pharmacology at UAH. Most doctors do not get an advanced course in psychopharmacology, they only get general pharm and learn in practice. I was very successful in the treatment of patients, it was the Advanced Psychopharm that made the difference.

Drugs are not the single answer or to state it loosely, not a panacea. A robust regimen of reinforcement from friends and family will also work wonders. The mentally ill are always losing and lagging behind, because most people shove them aside, while leading cutthroat lives and subscribing to the maxim of the survival of the fittest.

 

[PredFan]

I have not been keeping up with this incident. From what I do know this woman, after the car was stopped, ran out, unarmed and then was shot dead. If this is true, it's a case of unnecessary deadly force.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Whatever. Hollywood's fake bullets don't compare to real life bullets.

No, it is extremely important that people understand every aspect of the violent death Carey received. That way there is a greater chance for realization and that the police will get the message from those outraged. Your ho-hum indifference is exactly the attitude which allows police to get away scot free with hacking up our citizens.

I learned a long time ago not to use fiction to make a point about real life, and the movies are fiction.

That's you. If the example is, first of all, based on a true story, and 90% accurate to boot, it should be included...if desired.

My 'ho-hum indifference.' LOL You need to go back and read a little. I find this incident to be abhorrent, but I have an education and I would not use a movie portrayal of armed outlaws getting shot to make my point. If you are going for equivalency, you have to use equivalent examples. Movies DO NOT equate with real life. Armed outlaws DO NOT equate with an unarmed woman who stepped out of her car to give herself up. Bonnie and Clyde were armed criminals, not an unarmed mentally ill woman with a child in the car. The two things do not compare and they do not make your point.

Well, I didn't go to college. Does that make you better than me?

 

[PrometheusBound]

She had a baby in the backseat. The cops shot that woman, who was unarmed, in front of her own baby. She was unarmed. If they were concerned about a bomb they wouldn't have been close enough to fire the killing shots, instead, they would have been running like mad.

Despite your spin, that actually shows her selfishness that she would endanger her baby by her reckless driving. People like her act like they are the only people who exist, and that the rest of us are inanimate object only here to serve them.

 

[wavingrl]

She had a baby in the backseat. The cops shot that woman, who was unarmed, in front of her own baby. She was unarmed. If they were concerned about a bomb they wouldn't have been close enough to fire the killing shots, instead, they would have been running like mad.

Despite your spin, that actually shows her selfishness that she would endanger her baby by her reckless driving. People like her act like they are the only people who exist, and that the rest of us are inanimate object only here to serve them.

and again--if she was in an 'altered state'--delusions of some kind--rational thought might not have been possible.

~~
her sisters were interviewed on CNN this AM--casting doubt upon the boyfriend's statements about her mental health and more.

Lacking expertise in such matters--I don't have much of an opinion on 'what should have been done'. I know I would expect extreme consequences if I did what this woman did.

 

[Sunshine]

Post Partum Psychosis

Could Postpartum Psychosis Symptoms Explain The Capitol Hill Shooting?

Veering from the topic being discussed but this seems relevant.

I don't know what can be done about the many variations of mental illness.

As far as driving a car erratically around the WH and Capitol--I would expect that the highest levels of security/defense are applied. Hypervigiliance--that is part of life today.

Someone with expertise commented last night that this woman had received adequate/good care for her issues but with the types of medication prescribed there were risks inherent. I believe she was taking rispodral?--used with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder--mood stabilizer and lexapro--antidepressant. Either or both of these drugs 'might' have the capability of increasing, agitating other issues. I just don't think we have advanced far enough to know all that is necessary.

That's about all I have to say. There may be 'someone' to blame or something--at this point I can only feel sadness that anyone suffers from such an affliction. If you are hearing voices ==I don't suppose it would be possible to think coherently--pick up the phone and notify a doctor or family member.

I have treated many cases of psychosis and mania. There are only a few instances in which the meds exacerbate a problem. If a person is in the manic phase of bipolar disorder, an SSRI like Lexapro without a concomitant mood stabilizer, which Risperdal is not, the person will become psychotic within 6 months of starting the drug. Too many OBGYNs treat mental illness. They simply don't have the expertise to treat major mental illnesses. Most of them do not know that an SSRI without a mood stabilizer in a manic is a dangerous drug to give. If she had true post partum psychosis, the Risperdal was appropriate, but likely not high enough. We don't really know if she was manic or not, but if she was a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Lithium would should have been given BEFORE an SSRI was started.

I practiced in psychiatry for 25 years, 17 or so years of that as an NP. I took Advanced Psychopharmacology at Vanderbilt and Advanced General Pharmacology at UAH. Most doctors do not get an advanced course in psychopharmacology, they only get general pharm and learn in practice. I was very successful in the treatment of patients, it was the Advanced Psychopharm that made the difference.

Drugs are not the single answer or to state it loosely, not a panacea. A robust regimen of reinforcement from friends and family will also work wonders. The mentally ill are always losing and lagging behind, because most people shove them aside, while leading cutthroat lives and subscribing to the maxim of the survival of the fittest.

That shows how little you know about it. Most of the families of the patients I have had are ashamed of the person, reject them, or pressure them to stop treatment so people won't think they are crazy. They do not socialize well, so the only friends they have are those of their own kind. Serious and persistent mental illness is a complex thing that alters all areas of social and occupational functioning. Even when they go out to malls and emporiums, they are avoided by the 'normal' people. Now it looks like there is a buck to be made and family crawls out of the woodwork. That's always the way. You don't know one damned thing about it.

 

[eflatminor]

I bet those pigs led her by the tail right to the WH, so those male chauvinist pigs could teach women a lesson for all-time.

Wow. Logic and reason have no place in this post.

Dude, put down the bong, loosen the tinfoil hat, and think before you write something this asinine.

 

[eflatminor]

Has anyone answered the question
why didn't police shoot out her tires when she stopped
and they had surrounded the car
before she drove off again?

Several reasons. One, shooting a tire doesn't stop that vehicle from moving. Don't believe ANYTHING you see in the movies that is firearm related. Two, shooting at tires is a great way to send shrapnel flying in all directions, endangering the officers that had surrounded the car, and three, given this crazy woman's actions, it was time to end her right then and there.

Look, I'm the first one to stand up against unnecessary police brutality, which is typical for a libertarian. However, when a citizen crosses the line by hurting others and must be stopped now, the time for civility is over. She needed to be incapacitated immediately. The cops made the right choice.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

I have treated many cases of psychosis and mania. There are only a few instances in which the meds exacerbate a problem. If a person is in the manic phase of bipolar disorder, an SSRI like Lexapro without a concomitant mood stabilizer, which Risperdal is not, the person will become psychotic within 6 months of starting the drug. Too many OBGYNs treat mental illness. They simply don't have the expertise to treat major mental illnesses. Most of them do not know that an SSRI without a mood stabilizer in a manic is a dangerous drug to give. If she had true post partum psychosis, the Risperdal was appropriate, but likely not high enough. We don't really know if she was manic or not, but if she was a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Lithium would should have been given BEFORE an SSRI was started.

I practiced in psychiatry for 25 years, 17 or so years of that as an NP. I took Advanced Psychopharmacology at Vanderbilt and Advanced General Pharmacology at UAH. Most doctors do not get an advanced course in psychopharmacology, they only get general pharm and learn in practice. I was very successful in the treatment of patients, it was the Advanced Psychopharm that made the difference.

Drugs are not the single answer or to state it loosely, not a panacea. A robust regimen of reinforcement from friends and family will also work wonders. The mentally ill are always losing and lagging behind, because most people shove them aside, while leading cutthroat lives and subscribing to the maxim of the survival of the fittest.

That shows how little you know about it. Most of the families of the patients I have had are ashamed of the person, reject them, or pressure them to stop treatment so people won't think they are crazy. They do not socialize well, so the only friends they have are those of their own kind. Serious and persistent mental illness is a complex thing that alters all areas of social and occupational functioning. Even when they go out to malls and emporiums, they are avoided by the 'normal' people. Now it looks like there is a buck to be made and family crawls out of the woodwork. That's always the way. You don't know one damned thing about it.

How can a doctor like you ignore what I said in the quote you commented on? What's wrong? Not enough patients lately to pay the bills? I said drugs are not the SINGLE answer. That means I believe, of course, in traditional treatment: halfway houses; country day programs; family and friend reinforcement, etc. There are endless ways of treating mental illness, but you seem to be stuck in first gear.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

I bet those pigs led her by the tail right to the WH, so those male chauvinist pigs could teach women a lesson for all-time.

Wow. Logic and reason have no place in this post.

Dude, put down the bong, loosen the tinfoil hat, and think before you write something this asinine.

If you had asked earlier, I would have explained further what I meant.

Carey must have been driving erratically long before she got near her destination. The cops were undoubtedly monitoring her progress, wondering where she was going. I've driven many tens of thousands of hours and know exactly how this works. When the police realized she might be headed for the WH, they purposely waited in the right spot to do their traffic stop, knowing very well, she would likely panic as a result of the timing involved. They were right and got their wish. They probably hadn't blown anyone away for quite awhile and were bored, so decided to catch a little thrill.

 

[Hoffstra]

crashed her car into the White House gate and injured an officer.

crashed her car into a cop car.

crashed her car near the Capital building.

sorry, but when you play Suicide-by-Cop in the center of American govt., you're bound to get shot.

 

[eflatminor]

I bet those pigs led her by the tail right to the WH, so those male chauvinist pigs could teach women a lesson for all-time.

Wow. Logic and reason have no place in this post.

Dude, put down the bong, loosen the tinfoil hat, and think before you write something this asinine.

If you had asked earlier, I would have explained further what I meant.

Carey must have been driving erratically long before she got near her destination. The cops were undoubtedly monitoring her progress, wondering where she was going. I've driven many tens of thousands of hours and know exactly how this works. When the police realized she might be headed for the WH, they purposely waited in the right spot to do their traffic stop, knowing very well, she would likely panic as a result of the timing involved. They were right and got their wish. They probably hadn't blown anyone away for quite awhile and were bored, so decided to catch a little thrill.

And you have what evidence of this exactly? Something more than "I know how this works" please.

 

[MikeK]

BTW That Bonnie and Clyde were always armed is irrelevant. They were ambushed.

Actually, the fact that Bonnie and Clyde were always armed is very relevant. Because that fact, combined with the pair's past violent propensity, afforded police a perfectly valid reason to expect armed resistance.

What is not relevant is the fact that Bonnie and Clyde were "ambushed." In that example the police had valid cause to expect violent armed resistance from them. The question in the example of Miriam Carey is did the police have cause to expect armed resistance from her when she exited her car?

In recent years, development of police Procedure standards has emphasized "officer safety." E.g., it is no longer necessary for a police officer to wait until he is certain a criminal suspect is aiming a firearm at him, because the time it takes to make such a positive determination can make the difference between life and death. So the existing standard requires only that the officer has reasonably valid cause to expect deadly force resistance from a subject to justify the use of preventive deadly force. In the example of Miriam Carey, by repeatedly attempting to use her automobile as a weapon against police she demonstrated an intention to use deadly force against them.

In accordance with existing police Procedure they had ample cause to expect deadly force resistance from Miriam Carey.

I'm not saying the foregoing is right or wrong. I'm simply offering what I believe the police justification for shooting Miriam Carey to death will be.