Was Hiroshima Wrong?

[Kalam]

no they weren't wrong. what about Dresden?

What about Manhattan?

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Yes, not knowing whether my family members are alive or dead is always a joyful experience.

But you didn't answer my question. What about Manhattan?

 

[elvis]

What about Manhattan?

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Yes, not knowing whether my family members are alive or dead is always a joyful experience.

But you didn't answer my question. What about Manhattan?

stupid questions and comparisons get stupid responses. I apologize for insulting you in that manner, however.

 

[Kalam]

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Yes, not knowing whether my family members are alive or dead is always a joyful experience.

But you didn't answer my question. What about Manhattan?

stupid questions and comparisons get stupid responses. I apologize for insulting you in that manner, however.

...What makes the question stupid? In each case, civilians were attacked by an entity that sought to manipulate the will of the population it was targeting. The difference is that the WTC attacks were carried out by a non-state actor. If those attacks were unjustified (and I agree that they were), what justified the far more destructive attacks on the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The fact that they were successful?

 

[Anachronism]

This statement captures the essence of nationalism's perniciousness. It is a pox on humanity.

You are darn right that I'm a Nationalist. I'm also an Isolationist. My prefered "foreign policy" is to pull all Americans back inside our borders, throw out all foreigners, and to train several nuclear weapons at the capital of every country on Earth with the simple warning.....

"If your government, or any citizen of your country attempts to stick its nose into our affairs, we will launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on your capial. Keep your noses where they belong and we'll keep ours to ourselves as well. Don't call us and we sure as hell won't call you."

 

[elvis]

Yes, not knowing whether my family members are alive or dead is always a joyful experience.

But you didn't answer my question. What about Manhattan?

stupid questions and comparisons get stupid responses. I apologize for insulting you in that manner, however.

...What makes the question stupid? In each case, civilians were attacked by an entity that sought to manipulate the will of the population it was targeting. The difference is that the WTC attacks were carried out by a non-state actor. If those attacks were unjustified (and I agree that they were), what justified the far more destructive attacks on the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Hiroshima had factories which contributed to their war machine. We were at war with Japan. They attacked us. Who did we attack to provoke the 9/11 attacks? Having troops on the Arabian Peninsula? Would you prefer Saddam's troops be there?

 

[JBeukema]

the kind of vitriolic hatred that comes from years of fear of a powerful and brutal enemy who has attacked the homeland and has killed tens of thousands of fathers, sons and brothers.

And we're back to understanding 9/11...

The feeling of pure joy and relief that came with news of the Japanese surrender obscured any sense of remorse about the devastation caused by those bombs. In fact it was years before any suggestion of regret emerged in the U.S.

As it will be years after the end of the war before many in the ME have a chance to look back at 9/11 and ponder the greater moral implications.

I went to Japan in 1957 and within weeks after arriving my feelings toward the Japanese people were transformed. I came to like them and respect them and I began to regret what we'd done a dozen years earlier.

...

But because I did experience the provocation and the torment that led to it, while I do regret our having used those weapons I've never felt guilty about it.

Again... back to my point

 

[JBeukema]

Really? You're using these as comparable events? Seriously?

Apple

Orangutan

Compare these instead.... they're about as relevant as your examples are to each other.

Let's start by agreeing on an acceptable definition of "terrorism" and go from there.

 

[JBeukema]

no they weren't wrong. what about Dresden?

What about Manhattan?

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Evil little Nips, weren't they?

 

[Kalam]

Hiroshima had factories which contributed to their war machine.

Then why weren't those factories targeted in more discriminate bombing campaigns? Japan's navy and air force had been incapacitated by that point, right?

We were at war with Japan. They attacked us. Who did we attack to provoke the 9/11 attacks?

The involvement of the West (incl. the US) in the Middle East during the second half 20th century was characterized by support for corrupt autocrats in exchange for their cooperation and the use of force against 'wayward' dictators and the populations they controlled. Bin Ladin cited all of this as well as support for Israel and sanctions that endangered Iraqi civilians as reasons for the attacks. If we're to believe that terrorism is legitimate, then all of this is ample provocation.

Having troops on the Arabian Peninsula? Would you prefer Saddam's troops be there?

I think that's a false dichotomy.

 

[elvis]

the kind of vitriolic hatred that comes from years of fear of a powerful and brutal enemy who has attacked the homeland and has killed tens of thousands of fathers, sons and brothers.

And we're back to understanding 9/11...

The feeling of pure joy and relief that came with news of the Japanese surrender obscured any sense of remorse about the devastation caused by those bombs. In fact it was years before any suggestion of regret emerged in the U.S.

As it will be years after the end of the war before many in the ME have a chance to look back at 9/11 and ponder the greater moral implications.

I went to Japan in 1957 and within weeks after arriving my feelings toward the Japanese people were transformed. I came to like them and respect them and I began to regret what we'd done a dozen years earlier.

...

But because I did experience the provocation and the torment that led to it, while I do regret our having used those weapons I've never felt guilty about it.

Again... back to my point

the right way to fight a war: win it with as few casualties as possible.

 

[JBeukema]

Really? You're using these as comparable events? Seriously?

Apple

Orangutan

Compare these instead.... they're about as relevant as your examples are to each other.

Why Because we did it and we're always right and they're a bunch of evil muslims with the wrong colour skin?

It's not about skin color. We had an atomic bomb planned for Germany, in case the Battle of the Bulge had failed.
the World Trade Center was not a military target. Hiroshima was.

Really? The entire city of Hiroshima was a military target? Nagasaki was all a large military complex?

 

[elvis]

Hiroshima had factories which contributed to their war machine.

Then why weren't those factories targeted in more discriminate bombing campaigns? Japan's navy and air force had been incapacitated by that point, right?

We were at war with Japan. They attacked us. Who did we attack to provoke the 9/11 attacks?

The involvement of the West (incl. the US) in the Middle East during the second half 20th century was characterized by support for corrupt autocrats in exchange for their cooperation and the use of force against 'wayward' dictators and the populations they controlled. Bin Ladin cited all of this as well as support for Israel and sanctions that endangered Iraqi civilians as reasons for the attacks. If we're to believe that terrorism is legitimate, then all of this is ample provocation.

Having troops on the Arabian Peninsula? Would you prefer Saddam's troops be there?

I think that's a false dichotomy.

no. saddam's goal before Gulf War I was to capture the arabian peninsula. so I take it, you think the US government brought 9/11 on itself?

 

[elvis]

Why Because we did it and we're always right and they're a bunch of evil muslims with the wrong colour skin?

It's not about skin color. We had an atomic bomb planned for Germany, in case the Battle of the Bulge had failed.
the World Trade Center was not a military target. Hiroshima was.

Really? The entire city of Hiroshima was a military target? Nagasaki was all a large military complex?

it was certainly more of a military target than the world trade center. now if you say pentagon, i will concede that was a military target.

 

[elvis]

What about Manhattan?

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Evil little Nips, weren't they?

their government was full of them, yes.

 

[JBeukema]

Hiroshima had factories which contributed to their war machine.

WTC was the symbolic capital of the Western capitalism that fuels America's war against Islam in the ME in order to secure oil supplies.

We were at war with Japan.

They are at war against us

They attacked us.

They'd say the same about us

Who did we attack to provoke the 9/11 attacks?

United States and the Middle East: 1914 to 9/11

 

[JBeukema]

You were jumping for joy when that happened, weren't you. Laughing as people jumped. Evil capitalist little Eichmanns, they were.

Evil little Nips, weren't they?

their government was full of them, yes.

You don't even see it, do you?

 

[Baruch Menachem]

The goal was to bring the Japanese to Surrender under the terms agreed to by Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill at Yalta. Many japanese apologists note that the Japanese were proposing terms long before Hiroshima, but the terms were not in line with the Yalta agreement.

And there remains the reality of what the Japanese were doing in 1945. Militarily, they were useless. But the events on Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, where US casualties were extremely high, and Japanese casualties were appalling. (60% for Okinawa, 95% for Saipan, and all but 1 Japanese on Iwo.)

I personally would have preferred that one of the Japanese offers had been accepted in July , rather than turning Manchuria and North Korea over to the Russians. The Japanese were prepared to fight it out for every inch, and if every Japanese citizen died, so be it. The Japanese aren't just cute anime and Sanrio. They really are crazy. They were prepared to go the distance, and so we needed to convince them

Nagasaki was the convincer. It was to late, but it got the message across.

 

[elvis]

Hiroshima had factories which contributed to their war machine.

WTC was the symbolic capital of the Western capitalism that fuels America's war against Islam in the ME in order to secure oil supplies.

We were at war with Japan.

They are at war against us

They attacked us.

They'd say the same about us

Who did we attack to provoke the 9/11 attacks?

United States and the Middle East: 1914 to 9/11

so you think we deserved the attacks?

 

[elvis]

Evil little Nips, weren't they?

their government was full of them, yes.

You don't even see it, do you?

Oh I see it.

 

[JBeukema]

It's not about skin color. We had an atomic bomb planned for Germany, in case the Battle of the Bulge had failed.
the World Trade Center was not a military target. Hiroshima was.

Really? The entire city of Hiroshima was a military target? Nagasaki was all a large military complex?

it was certainly more of a military target than the world trade center. now if you say pentagon, i will concede that was a military target.

Total war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Strategies of Annihilation: Total War in US History

“It is probable that the reduction of Japan’s power and will to resist may only be accomplished by a sustained, systematic, and large scale air offensive against Japan itself.” - Allied Combined Chiefs’ Plan for Japan’s Defeat, May 14th, 1943

I'll not even get into the wars and ethnic cleansing s against the natives.

Point is: America had no problem with this sort of thing when we were doing it. Like the Jews, we only cried foul when we were on the losing side.

What credibility do we have?