War on The Rich: Dumbest Idea in History of Man

[regent]

Wonder if wealthy have ever made war on the poor?

 

[thereisnospoon]

The wealth of any nation is finite. The more of it the rich concentrate in their own hands, the less there is left for everyone else.

Wrong! Wealth is NOT finite, it is infinite. People generate wealth through their labor, creativity, talents, etc. This is your key problem, the failure to understand wealth is not finite. When you believe such a fallacy, it causes you to think the wealthy should only become so wealthy else the poor can never become wealthy. It makes you believe there is only so much wealth and the wealthy have it all.

The truth is, wealth is generated, so wealth is limitless. Now the people who are wealthy in a nation, especially a free market economy nation like our own, generally got wealthy because they were smart with their money, were successful at free market capitalism, and had the drive, motivation and ambition to succeed. Many came from abject poverty to become wealthy. Seems to me, the really "smart" person might want to listen to them, learn from them, try to emulate them and find out about how they were successful.

Just total opposite of what you want to do.

How can wealth be infinite. Is the annual GDP number 'infinity'?

A nation can only generate so much wealth per year; the more of it the Rich keep, the less for the rest of us.

Without the rich, you will not receive your welfare check. So quit complaining.

It is the workers who create wealth, not the rich
The rich control available wealth and decide where it will go

Oh here we go. So you have surrendered your original premise that wealth is finite. You now say wealth IS created. Just not by the wealthy, but by ( here comes the pro union gung ho labor is king bullshit) but by "the workers"...And how do you define "workers"? That's easy, your perception of a "worker" is one carrying a union membership card....
Cut the bullshit.
Entrepreneurs and investors create wealth. Workers simply enjoy the fruits of their labor. Workers create wealth by taking a portion of their earnings and investing them in a savings or investment vehicle( 401k, income or growth fund, college savings plan for the kid(s) or investing in a business, etc).
You exist in a very small paradigm.

 

[rightwinger]

How big does the wealth gap have to get before conservatives will be happy?

Not even an issue with them as long as they can fool themselves into thinking social mobility still exists.

Corporate big dawgs have made it to where you can't even leave your jobs without repercussions in the workforce...

Another loser in your career. Employers compete like crap for good employees. Anyone who is a good employee knows that. Since you don't...

In a good economy, they do
In a shaky economy where employees wonder about their jobs, they are at the mercy of their employer

Where does their employer get the money to pay them?

Easy, peasy

Profits off their labor

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP wonders why people don't often respond to his threads.

Would he like an honest answer to that question?

No, I'd rather you obey the forum rules and keep your harassing and trolling comments to yourself if you're not going to participate in the thread.

Of course not. You'd prefer that everyone just let you drop your piles of BS here and avoid engaging you in discussion. That is why you post in the manner that you do. It isn't discussion you want. All you seek is nods of agreement from lightweights who like your thread titles.

If you want a thread with honest participation, I can advise you on how to achieve it.

Point 1. Develop a premise that has some basis in fact and is free of hyperbole.

You can thank me later.

Well see, what you have to do, libtard, is pose some sort of coherent counter to the points the OP makes, or you just quite frankly haven't done that. There is nothing hyperbolic in the OP, it's pretty cut and dry. You run from the OP screaming "hyperbole" with your panties waving in the air.

Why do I post in the manner I do? What manner? Smart, intelligent, well-reasoned? Better than any fucking counter-argument you can think of?

Let's begin here.

Is capitalism a form of government?

In a sense, yes. The American system is a representative constitutional republic which is based on an economy enabled for the first time in human history by, 1.) a capitalist free market and 2.) a capitalist free enterprise system. It is the epitome of our form of government, it's what we are. Pioneers of free market, free enterprise capitalist economy which is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than any system ever devised by humans.

Wrong. It is not a form of government. Not even close. Anything you have to say about it is therefore based in a misconception.

 

[Moonglow]

How many poor people committed crimes in the 1930s? Let's punish them all for that now.

BTW, crony capitalism is a form of socialism, it has nothing to do with capitalism.

Depending on our definition of "socialism" I would argue the socialist wants to build a wall of separation between private wealth and the state while the capitalist, crony or otherwise, doesn't exist without controlling the state.

Capitalist doesn't exist without controlling the State? What the hell are you talking about? How does my competing in the market place mean I need to control the State? And why does the word "Marxist" bother you so much, Karl?

Can you think of any government ever conceived that didn't serve its richest citizens first and foremost? Capitalism creates private wealth more effectively than any other economic system yet devised primarily by socializing cost and privatizing profits. Without a wall of separation between private wealth and the state, the gulf between the very rich and the majority can only get wider since your market is "value neutral" and apportions products solely on the basis of how much money one can afford to pay. In other words, capitalists are gangsters in control of the monopoly of violence.

"Socializing costs?" In what way? Every business owner I've ever known is fully responsible for paying his own overhead. They've always played a balancing act between profit, overhead, and re-investment while putting some of the money earned in his own pocket to pay his personal bills; keep food on the table; and improve his personal quality of life. That's the goal isn't it? Achieving the American Dream and enjoying what life has to offer? Why should a business owner be punished for working hard and earning a better life?

I'm guessing every business owner you've known has been a small business owner and therefore unlikely to to qualify for any significant...

"Corporate welfare is a term that analogizes corporate subsidies to welfare payments for the poor.[1]

"The term is often used to describe a government's bestowal of money grants, tax breaks, or other special favorable treatment on corporations or selected corporations, and implies that corporations are much less needy of such treatment than the poor."

Socializing cost also applies to businesses who pollute groundwater, poison workers and others, and expect government to pay for cleanup.

Corporate welfare - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And corps have easier access to new govt. info and techno

Wonder if wealthy have ever made war on the poor?

Seen the prices you pay for junk?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Hey Boss, how did you amass your 100 million dollar fortune?
You do have 100 million? Right?

If not, why don't you? Wealth is infinite (according to you). So why don't you have more money than you could ever spend in two life times? Why don't we all have 100 million. When something is infinite, we all should have a large share. Makes the world go round easier.

Believe me when I tell you that for a poor person in this country, wealth is finite.
For a middle class person wealth is finite.
For an ultra wealthy person, wealth is not finite. Cause they got all the money to begin with. And when you already have the money and you are able to buy your politicians then amassing great wealth at the expense of others may be infinite.

Certainly the desire from the moneyed class is to amass infinite wealth. So far their plan is working. The ultra wealthy never had it so good. Or had as much money. Or as favorable of tax treatment.

My old running buddy from high school is now listed in the Fortune 500's 50-richest Americans. He and I came from the same general background, were best friends, our families were friends. We were all "working class" families in a small Alabama town. Now he is one of the 50-richest in the country.

So what was the difference between he and I? Well... he has this 'way' about him, he's always had it.... always had something going. Always making money. I wasn't as inclined, found things that interested me more than making money. But that's how this all works, the people who have this ability are really good at it.

Every person in this country can have their share, there is no limit to wealth. It just has to be created. The first step is to stop convincing yourself it is finite. If you're thinking that way, you're going nowhere and it will cause you to make really stupid choices for your future.

Nice...quaint...romantic......but largely untrue.

Study Children s life trajectories largely determined by family they are born into Hub

 

[rightwinger]

The wealth of any nation is finite. The more of it the rich concentrate in their own hands, the less there is left for everyone else.

Wrong! Wealth is NOT finite, it is infinite. People generate wealth through their labor, creativity, talents, etc. This is your key problem, the failure to understand wealth is not finite. When you believe such a fallacy, it causes you to think the wealthy should only become so wealthy else the poor can never become wealthy. It makes you believe there is only so much wealth and the wealthy have it all.

The truth is, wealth is generated, so wealth is limitless. Now the people who are wealthy in a nation, especially a free market economy nation like our own, generally got wealthy because they were smart with their money, were successful at free market capitalism, and had the drive, motivation and ambition to succeed. Many came from abject poverty to become wealthy. Seems to me, the really "smart" person might want to listen to them, learn from them, try to emulate them and find out about how they were successful.

Just total opposite of what you want to do.

How can wealth be infinite. Is the annual GDP number 'infinity'?

A nation can only generate so much wealth per year; the more of it the Rich keep, the less for the rest of us.

Without the rich, you will not receive your welfare check. So quit complaining.

It is the workers who create wealth, not the rich
The rich control available wealth and decide where it will go

Oh here we go. So you have surrendered your original premise that wealth is finite. You now say wealth IS created. Just not by the wealthy, but by ( here comes the pro union gung ho labor is king bullshit) but by "the workers"...And how do you define "workers"? That's easy, your perception of a "worker" is one carrying a union membership card....
Cut the bullshit.
Entrepreneurs and investors create wealth. Workers simply enjoy the fruits of their labor. Workers create wealth by taking a portion of their earnings and investing them in a savings or investment vehicle( 401k, income or growth fund, college savings plan for the kid(s) or investing in a business, etc).
You exist in a very small paradigm.

Show where I have said anything like that
No.....your workers are not just the guys bending metal or swinging a hammer. They include the guy who designs your product, balances your books, investigates new markets.......they create wealth
Not the person who moves money from point A to point B

 

[kaz]

Wow, in this country and all it's wealth, you can't make anything of yourself? Damn there's a lot of money out there to be made by anyone willing to put forth any effort at all. You are a Loser with a capital L.

I am not talking about me, I am talking about everyone, individual success or failure is not the issue here, it's the structural defects in our economy that are making all this trickle down shit a tired old lie by now. Personally I am doing OK because I managed to acquire a marketable skill set but the same opportunities I had are just not there anymore.

You are talking about you because if you are not a failure in your job you would know how easy it is to succeed in this country.

How many illegals do you have to compete with to get a job or to run a construction business.. ?? Many and it's sad to see business leaders and so called great men hiring the illegals.. You sit here and suck the rich's sacs, when they are the ones destroying the working mans base...with cheap infused labor.. And don't tell me it's Oblama's fault, this has been going on through GOP and Dem presidencies for over 40 years. The govt. allows them to stay, wealthy business owners hire them.....debasing the economics of the working American and you think we need to bow down and kiss the rich ones ass!?...You are such a giant tool...

Marxist rhetoric is so persuasive. You don't understand capitalism at all. In a capitalist system, companies, consumers, employees make their own decisions.

What you oppose is crony capitalism, which is a variation of socialism. The idea of government not controlling companies is inconceivable to you, even when you give that power to government and companies turn around and control government.

None of that is capitalism. It's the inevitable end to your socialist dream. Money perverts power. I'm a giant tool, lol, you're the bitch of politicians. And you don't believe companies control government, if you did, the last thing you would want is more government and that's what you beg for.

And yes, you are a loser in your career. What you are spouting is rhetoric you would know is wrong if you actually didn't suck as an employee. Maybe your problem is your bosses know you hate them. You should start by giving a crap about your job.

I wasn't an employee for 35 years, I had a contracting company...So I see that you spewed your usual hateful reply when you can't cover your rich boys asses...
I understand capitalism just fine, It the capitalism without a conscience I don't like...

Bull. You're a liar. No one who owned a company for 35 years doesn't loathe government for what they do to businesses. Not one of my most liberal business ownership friends would say what you did, every one loathes what government does to business owners. No one who owned a company at all doesn't know how desperately we compete for employees and thinks we can walk all over them. And no one who has been successful in their career doesn't know how frankly easy it is in this country to make it. You are FOS. If you want to claim to be a duck, try quaking instead of mooing.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Looks to me like the class war is over, the rich won.

Again... This is the kind of propaganda you believe when you think wealth is finite.

Propaganda? If decrying the sorry state of wealth distribution is propaganda then what is your cheerleading for a flawed system that clearly leaves so many in want? Look at the reality of things, sure there is wealth being generated but not by wage earners. We do not have a perfect system, it is not a class war to examine the flaws and attempt to address them.

The propaganda is the belief that wealth should be equally distributed in society.

It is class warfare to deliberately seek to harm one group of people out of greed and envy. People who are in want are people who are striving to be more than they are. Or they used to be. Until the mentality such as yours comes along and eliminates the need for people to strive to be better.

Rather they have it handed to them through false prophecy of compassion than to hunger to be better.

Nobody is asking to take money away from rich people and give it to the poor. What we are asking is why does our government continue economic policies that ensure more wealth is distributed at the top. These policies were supposed to result in more jobs and a rising economic tide that benefitted everyone
Those policies did not work.....why do we continue them?

Oh yes you are. In fact you demand it. Your side has put forth the idea that taxation on anyone with whom you feel has an uncomfortable amount of wealth or earns more than an imaginary wage or salary for the sole purpose of "getting even" or to punish.
On this alleged government policy which benefits only those with wealth, I have a question. Which policy might that be?
BTW, that idea of a rising tide lifts all boats is a maritime concept based on the laws of physics. It has nothing to do with economics, It is simply a cry out for help from government to make laws to equalize that which you are convinced must be equal.
Finally, you are free to conceptualize and then produce YOUR solution to this alleged government policy.
Have at it. If you dare.

 

[kaz]

Not even an issue with them as long as they can fool themselves into thinking social mobility still exists.

Corporate big dawgs have made it to where you can't even leave your jobs without repercussions in the workforce...

Another loser in your career. Employers compete like crap for good employees. Anyone who is a good employee knows that. Since you don't...

In a good economy, they do
In a shaky economy where employees wonder about their jobs, they are at the mercy of their employer

Where does their employer get the money to pay them?

Easy, peasy

Profits off their labor

Then Comrade, why do they work for us? Why don't they just do the work themselves and profit off their own labor?

 

[LoneLaugher]

The wealth of any nation is finite. The more of it the rich concentrate in their own hands, the less there is left for everyone else.

Human speed is "finite" but there are always going to be the fastest runners.
Human intelligence is "finite" but not everyone will reach genius status.
Football games are regulated by time and rules but there can only be one Super Bowl trophy awarded.

Life simply isn't "fair" nor has it ever been. Time to get over it and do the best with what you got. Want more money? Invent something; earn a degree and get a better job; work longer hours; stop spending as much and invest more wisely; etc.

Lots of people did all that and still lost, the "life isn't fair" dodge is frequently used to cover for reckless policy and predatory business practices, will it ever be time to make the economically powerful accountable for their actions?

I agree with you. Let's start making people accountable. Let's do away with all forms of welfare, Raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour, and allow companies to indiscriminately fire employees who aren't worth that wage.

Business would be fine, and losers would be starving daily. Accountability right?

Oh no, no, no, no, no. Libs want what the rich have but only want to work part time; continue getting their welfare checks; and put forth a half-ass effort to get it. They're perpetual "wanters" ... not "earners."

I actually read an interesting treatise on this subject awhile back, can't recall where.

Anyway the writer suggested, and backed this up with actual figures, that it would be cheaper for all concerned if the USG simply shut down all welfare programs, Just completely shuttered them, and then just sent every adult American a check for $30K once a year, and those who wanted to have more could get a job, while those who did not want to work could make do with $30K.

His solution also required getting rid of the income tax and going with a 10% national sales tax at the retail level.

He opined that it would result in better , and better paid, employees in every industry and would do a far better job of eliminating poverty than the welfare programs we have now.

I think I agree with him.

That is a guaranteed minimum income. And it is very socialist.

 

[kaz]

And corps have easier access to new govt. info and techno

It's a double edged sword, it also makes changes a lot harder and expensive as technology changes.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP wonders why people don't often respond to his threads.

Would he like an honest answer to that question?

No, I'd rather you obey the forum rules and keep your harassing and trolling comments to yourself if you're not going to participate in the thread.

Of course not. You'd prefer that everyone just let you drop your piles of BS here and avoid engaging you in discussion. That is why you post in the manner that you do. It isn't discussion you want. All you seek is nods of agreement from lightweights who like your thread titles.

If you want a thread with honest participation, I can advise you on how to achieve it.

Point 1. Develop a premise that has some basis in fact and is free of hyperbole.

You can thank me later.

Hey...Either contribute to the discussion or shut the fuck up....
When is the last time you started the thread?
All you do is come on here with drive by posts stupid one liners and insults.
You are in constant violation of forum rules.
You are a perfect example of what liberals are. You people stand for nothing and question everything.

You should focus on the thread and not me, pal. You are obsessed with me. Back off.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Well thank you to Mr. H. for responding. I am not sure why the anti-capitalists avoid my threads like an Ebola patient, but they do. I spend all this time and energy typing up a truly educational resource for pinheads and they ignore it.

In fact, I think maybe I DO get it... I understand the strategy... Ignore Boss! When he posts a thread about capitalism, just ignore it and avoid it!

Well, that's okay, us capitalists can have a conversation without you.

This is trolling, by the way. You have signaled your desire to be ridiculed with the above post.

Someone as vacant of ideas as you has not the right to ridicule anyone. You are insignificant.

Still on me, huh? What's your problem. Get on topic, bitch.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP wonders why people don't often respond to his threads.

Would he like an honest answer to that question?

No, I'd rather you obey the forum rules and keep your harassing and trolling comments to yourself if you're not going to participate in the thread.

Of course not. You'd prefer that everyone just let you drop your piles of BS here and avoid engaging you in discussion. That is why you post in the manner that you do. It isn't discussion you want. All you seek is nods of agreement from lightweights who like your thread titles.

If you want a thread with honest participation, I can advise you on how to achieve it.

Point 1. Develop a premise that has some basis in fact and is free of hyperbole.

You can thank me later.

Well see, what you have to do, libtard, is pose some sort of coherent counter to the points the OP makes, or you just quite frankly haven't done that. There is nothing hyperbolic in the OP, it's pretty cut and dry. You run from the OP screaming "hyperbole" with your panties waving in the air.

Why do I post in the manner I do? What manner? Smart, intelligent, well-reasoned? Better than any fucking counter-argument you can think of?

Let's begin here.

Is capitalism a form of government?

That's not a point. Nor is it a discussion. It is a statement in the form of a question designed to illicit a predetermined response.

Look at you! Still hovering close by. You need some attention?

 

[thereisnospoon]

So you want to listen to the Rich, I posted a quote from Andrew Carnegie.

Hey, I can appreciate Carnegie and what he's saying, money isn't everything. I personally know very wealthy people who benevolently give massive amounts of their fortunes to various philanthropic causes. That's the great thing about having lots of really wealthy people around, the money flows generously.

What I can't figure out is why your stupid ass wants to make this the enemy?

It's the Rich who made the not-rich the enemy.

It wasn't the working class who moved the work to China, was it?

Oh please cut the bullshit....Please enlighten us on what "the work" is. Please describe to the board members which jobs that would have been in the US but for the existence of China.
I have a question. Should all foreign companies that have invested in the US, built facilities in which American workers are now employed be kicked out of the US because for example "Toyota shipped all those jobs from Japan to the US". Or French firm Alcatel bought Lucent Technologies, was that part of the same evil you describe when US based firms decided to invest in China? Or how about Ericsson which purchased Sprint's nationwide fiber network? Should we tell Ericsson to go back to Stockholm and stay there?
Are you prepared to be the spokesperson hired by the federal government to inform those millions of workers( there's that term again) that we have closed our economy to all foreign investment and due to this new protectionist policy you people will all be out of a job?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Hey Boss, how did you amass your 100 million dollar fortune?
You do have 100 million? Right?

If not, why don't you? Wealth is infinite (according to you). So why don't you have more money than you could ever spend in two life times? Why don't we all have 100 million. When something is infinite, we all should have a large share. Makes the world go round easier.

Believe me when I tell you that for a poor person in this country, wealth is finite.
For a middle class person wealth is finite.
For an ultra wealthy person, wealth is not finite. Cause they got all the money to begin with. And when you already have the money and you are able to buy your politicians then amassing great wealth at the expense of others may be infinite.

Certainly the desire from the moneyed class is to amass infinite wealth. So far their plan is working. The ultra wealthy never had it so good. Or had as much money. Or as favorable of tax treatment.

You want some cheese to go with that whine?

Great contribution. Off topic and against forum rules. Check yourself.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The wealth of any nation is finite. The more of it the rich concentrate in their own hands, the less there is left for everyone else.

A proven lie.

It's mathematically impossible to divide a pie into pieces that then add up to a sum bigger than the original pie.

It is NOT mathematically impossible to grow a pie that can then be cut into more and more pieces.

Otherwise, we would all be scraping and fighting for the original 1000 ounces of gold.

Wealth is created, and created wealth grows a larger pie.

This HAS BEEN PROVEN.

I counter the OP's argument with "the pie does not exist". Because it doesn't.

 

[jknowgood]

What I was talking about is liquidity, huge piles of wealth are of no benefit to society until it is spent or invested in something that creates jobs. I could have a hundred trillion dollars but the relatively small amount I would spend is all that matters to the economy.

Every investment creates jobs

Then in a consumer driven economy like ours, every pay raise creates jobs.

And every tax increase takes wealth.

 

[jknowgood]

Hey, I can appreciate Carnegie and what he's saying, money isn't everything. I personally know very wealthy people who benevolently give massive amounts of their fortunes to various philanthropic causes. That's the great thing about having lots of really wealthy people around, the money flows generously.

What I can't figure out is why your stupid ass wants to make this the enemy?

It's the Rich who made the not-rich the enemy.

It wasn't the working class who moved the work to China, was it?

They have made working class Americans the enemy. It is not the rich who are being portrayed as greedy and selfish....it is the workers
We have the GOP to thank

Starting with unions. It's greed if the workers want a bigger share of the wealth produced by an industry, and yet,

it's somehow good, according to these apologists for the wealthy, if the rich owners of the industry get to keep as big a share as they can.

In fact, these apologists are all for taking away every bit possible of the ability of the workers to fight for a bigger share.

You confuse share with ownership.

Do the employees own the business? No. Do the Employees share the risk of lost wages if the economy turns down? Do the employees pay back the costs they incur to business through their theft of material goods and time?

Employees have a dog in the fight. During an economic downturn, it is the employees who first feel the pinch with lower wages and layoffs

Equals, the Obama economy.