Wait a minute: The guns in Fast and Furious didn't originate from the government?

[bigrebnc1775]

I actually didn't know this..it's pretty shocking.

I thought the guns came from a government stash..like Wide Reciever.

But nope.

Law enforcement engages in all sorts of dubious practices as well..that violate the rights of citizens.

Like..for example..lying to people to get confessions.

Or setting up "To good to be true" "bait cars". That..really have killed people.

Or..they will get a snitch to be a cellie with a guy that committed a crime..to get "information" against the guy to use in court. Doesn't matter if the guy is lying or not..he spent time in the same cage.

Or famously..the Padilla case..where the Federal Government completely ignored the rights of an American citizen.

But THIS..it ranks as something to go after. Complete with an hysterical conspiracy theory by Issa (The arsonist gun toting car thief) and the NRA that this was some sort of insidious plot to come for everyone's gun.

Amazing.

Seems that horrible CBS News outlet disagree's with you and they have proof:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

CBS innuendo's against bush very likely against obama not on your life.

 

[CaféAuLait]

I actually didn't know this..it's pretty shocking.

I thought the guns came from a government stash..like Wide Reciever.

But nope.

Law enforcement engages in all sorts of dubious practices as well..that violate the rights of citizens.

Like..for example..lying to people to get confessions.

Or setting up "To good to be true" "bait cars". That..really have killed people.

Or..they will get a snitch to be a cellie with a guy that committed a crime..to get "information" against the guy to use in court. Doesn't matter if the guy is lying or not..he spent time in the same cage.

Or famously..the Padilla case..where the Federal Government completely ignored the rights of an American citizen.

But THIS..it ranks as something to go after. Complete with an hysterical conspiracy theory by Issa (The arsonist gun toting car thief) and the NRA that this was some sort of insidious plot to come for everyone's gun.

Amazing.

Seems that horrible CBS News outlet disagree's with you and they have proof:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

 

[Sallow]

How do you know unless someone other than obama can see them?

I guess you want to reverse Cheney v. the District Court, get rid of executive priviledge and the right of the White House to classify documents..

Correct?

Executive privilege is not absolute What will happen they'll go to court and have to show cause page by page why that page should be granted Executive privilege

You're not exactly being consistent here. The Cheney vs. District Courts broadened Executive Priviledge to include administration officials. And administration officials engaged in making policy.

That's extremely broad.

If you are saying that the case should be reversed..and Cheney, Bush and company hauled in to turn their documentation concerning meetings with energy officials..

You'd be on firmer ground.

This is what you guys lack in your arguments..consistency and an understanding about precedence.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I guess you want to reverse Cheney v. the District Court, get rid of executive priviledge and the right of the White House to classify documents..

Correct?

Executive privilege is not absolute What will happen they'll go to court and have to show cause page by page why that page should be granted Executive privilege

You're not exactly being consistent here. The Cheney vs. District Courts broadened Executive Priviledge to include administration officials. And administration officials engaged in making policy.

That's extremely broad.

If you are saying that the case should be reversed..and Cheney, Bush and company hauled in to turn their documentation concerning meetings with energy officials..

You'd be on firmer ground.

This is what you guys lack in your arguments..consistency and an understanding about precedence.

That's the way it is holder and obama will have to show cause why each document should be granted EP in civil court.

 

[francoHFW]

No, it's great people can buy as many guns as they want, and no law enforcement can tell where they're going. And of course gun nuts, the NRA, and Pubs have nothing to do it. LOL Pub dupes! So

Issa goes after Dems who had nothing to do with a local ATF program...and it's all Obama's fault for not handing over the whole store over to a bunch of hater/propagandists LOL.

 

[Missourian]

Okay..

Are you guys asserting that the guns used in the sales..were given to the sellers by the ATF?

Because it seems that wasn't the case.

No, I think everyone is asserting you are willfully ignorant.

Again, you are only demonstrating that how ill-informed you are.

Those assault weapons were sold to known criminals not legally able to purchase firearms under federal laws. The reason border town gun stores made those illegal sales is because the ATF directed them to--the ATF monitored the damn sales. The ATF under the direction of the Justice Dept sanctioned illegal sales of thousands of assault weapons to meth addicts, felons, non-citizens, ect

They didn't "sanction" shit.

They watched it go down.

These sales go on daily. 85% of the guns in Mexico come from the US.

That's NOT because of Fast and Furious.

We had that very same problem in NYC. Most illegal guns that wound up here started out in Virginia.

That 85% number is blatantly false.

The President tried to float that myth already and Factcheck.org quickly debunked it.

"But is it true, as President Obama said, that "[m]ore than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States?"

Government statistics don’t actually support that claim."

FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No, it's great people can buy as many guns as they want, and no law enforcement can tell where they're going. And of course gun nuts, the NRA, and Pubs have nothing to do it. LOL Pub dupes! So

Issa goes after Dems who had nothing to do with a local ATF program...and it's all Obama's fault for not handing over the whole store over to a bunch of hater/propagandists LOL.

 

[Darkwind]

Two things.

The guns were government.

If the guns were not government, they were still running the program that allowed the guns to move into the hands of the cartels and therefore, are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Mexican civilians and one confirmed border agent.

Our government was involved in criminal activities. Someone needs to answer for it. That someone is at the top of the food chain.....Eric Holder.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No, I think everyone is asserting you are willfully ignorant.

Again, you are only demonstrating that how ill-informed you are.

Those assault weapons were sold to known criminals not legally able to purchase firearms under federal laws. The reason border town gun stores made those illegal sales is because the ATF directed them to--the ATF monitored the damn sales. The ATF under the direction of the Justice Dept sanctioned illegal sales of thousands of assault weapons to meth addicts, felons, non-citizens, ect

They didn't "sanction" shit.

They watched it go down.

These sales go on daily. 85% of the guns in Mexico come from the US.

That's NOT because of Fast and Furious.

We had that very same problem in NYC. Most illegal guns that wound up here started out in Virginia.

That 85% number is blatantly false.

The President tried that already and Factcheck.org quickly debunked it.

"But is it true, as President Obama said, that "[m]ore than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States?"

Government statistics don’t actually support that claim."

FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns

Yep obama was preaching American guns going into Mexico knowing that Fast and the furious was operating during that time.

 

[Lakhota]

Seems that horrible CBS News outlet disagree's with you and they have proof:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

NOT TRUE!

Issa’s position on Holder’s knowledge of the tactics used is a reversal of what he claimed when he began his investigation last year, when he said the tactics went “all the way to the very top.”

Holder Contempt: Issa No Longer Suspicious AG Knew Fast And Furious Gunwalking | TPMMuckraker

Project Gunrunner: Obama Administration's Stonewalling Contradicts Claims of Transparent Gov't - YouTube

 

[Sallow]

Seems that horrible CBS News outlet disagree's with you and they have proof:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

I don't think you understood my post.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kenneth E. Melson was the chief director and head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in the United States.[2] He was appointed by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to head the agency on May 14, 2007.[3]
Melson has served in the United States Department of Justice as a federal prosecutor for nearly 24 years.[4] He resigned as head of the ATF after being under fire from Republicans and critics over the scandal surrounding the "Gunwalking" program of Operation Fast and Furious.[5] He was replaced by B. Todd Jones, a former Marine who has twice served as the U.S. attorney in Minnesota.
Kenneth E. Melson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Director Mueller, along with Acting Attorney General James B. Comey, offered to resign from office in March 2004 if the White House overruled a Department of Justice finding that domestic wiretapping without a court warrant was unconstitutional.[10] Attorney General John D. Ashcroft denied his consent to attempts by White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card and White House Counsel Alberto R. Gonzales to waive the Justice Department ruling and permit the domestic warrantless eavesdropping program to proceed. On March 12, 2004, President George W. Bush gave his support to changes in the program sufficient to satisfy the concerns of Mueller, Ashcroft and Comey.[10] The extent of the National Security Agency's domestic warrantless eavesdropping under the President's Surveillance Program is still largely unknown.
Robert Mueller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lakhota]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcTGzxM_3IM&feature=player_embedded]Issa on Holder's Knowledge of Fast and Furious - YouTube[/ame]

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

NOT TRUE!

Issa’s position on Holder’s knowledge of the tactics used is a reversal of what he claimed when he began his investigation last year, when he said the tactics went “all the way to the very top.”

Holder Contempt: Issa No Longer Suspicious AG Knew Fast And Furious Gunwalking | TPMMuckraker

Project Gunrunner: Obama Administration's Stonewalling Contradicts Claims of Transparent Gov't - YouTube

debunked already.

 

[SniperFire]

I guess you want to reverse Cheney v. the District Court, get rid of executive priviledge and the right of the White House to classify documents..

Correct?

Executive privilege is not absolute What will happen they'll go to court and have to show cause page by page why that page should be granted Executive privilege

You're not exactly being consistent here. The Cheney vs. District Courts broadened Executive Priviledge to include administration officials. And administration officials engaged in making policy.

That's extremely broad.

If you are saying that the case should be reversed..and Cheney, Bush and company hauled in to turn their documentation concerning meetings with energy officials..

You'd be on firmer ground.

This is what you guys lack in your arguments..consistency and an understanding about precedence.

Horseshit, as we have come to expect from you.

;The presence of the Vice President as a party in the case changed the usual mandamus analysis because the discovery order threatened “substantial intrusions on the process by which those in closest operational proximity to the President advise the President.”

Cheney v. United States District Court

 

[francoHFW]

There are legal ways to get documents, but since Issa has no valid reason, he and the PPM just scream bloody murder. Only total dupes believe this BS anymore....

 

[Darkwind]

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

NOT TRUE!

Issa’s position on Holder’s knowledge of the tactics used is a reversal of what he claimed when he began his investigation last year, when he said the tactics went “all the way to the very top.”

Holder Contempt: Issa No Longer Suspicious AG Knew Fast And Furious Gunwalking | TPMMuckraker

Project Gunrunner: Obama Administration's Stonewalling Contradicts Claims of Transparent Gov't - YouTube

Holder contradicts Bush did it too.wmv - YouTube

It burns.....it stings........

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Issa on Holder's Knowledge of Fast and Furious - YouTube

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccs_KdQdbfc]Napolitano Aware of Fast and Furious in 2009 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Sallow]

No, I think everyone is asserting you are willfully ignorant.

Again, you are only demonstrating that how ill-informed you are.

Those assault weapons were sold to known criminals not legally able to purchase firearms under federal laws. The reason border town gun stores made those illegal sales is because the ATF directed them to--the ATF monitored the damn sales. The ATF under the direction of the Justice Dept sanctioned illegal sales of thousands of assault weapons to meth addicts, felons, non-citizens, ect

They didn't "sanction" shit.

They watched it go down.

These sales go on daily. 85% of the guns in Mexico come from the US.

That's NOT because of Fast and Furious.

We had that very same problem in NYC. Most illegal guns that wound up here started out in Virginia.

That 85% number is blatantly false.

The President tried to float that myth already and Factcheck.org quickly debunked it.

"But is it true, as President Obama said, that "[m]ore than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States?"

Government statistics don’t actually support that claim."

FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns

It's not "debunked".

What it says is the data is unreliable since serial numbers on recovered guns have been removed.

But what isn't removed is that fine American craftsmenship..that just screams "Made in the US".

 

[Sallow]

Executive privilege is not absolute What will happen they'll go to court and have to show cause page by page why that page should be granted Executive privilege

You're not exactly being consistent here. The Cheney vs. District Courts broadened Executive Priviledge to include administration officials. And administration officials engaged in making policy.

That's extremely broad.

If you are saying that the case should be reversed..and Cheney, Bush and company hauled in to turn their documentation concerning meetings with energy officials..

You'd be on firmer ground.

This is what you guys lack in your arguments..consistency and an understanding about precedence.

Horseshit, as we have come to expect from you.

;The presence of the Vice President as a party in the case changed the usual mandamus analysis because the discovery order threatened “substantial intrusions on the process by which those in closest operational proximity to the President advise the President.”

Cheney v. United States District Court

Is English that hard for you?

You just backed up what I posted.

 

[CaféAuLait]

Where, exactly?

Lots of innuendo..and not much substance.

Issa, recently admitted he has no evidence to connect either Holder or Obama to the practice.

Which by the way..was PUT INTO PLACE BY BUSH ADMINISTRATION HOLDOVERS.

Fast and the Furious was not Bush's operation and Holder even said so. AND it was never said Obam knew about it-- UNTIL he invoked executive privilege.

I don't think you understood my post.

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious

On October 26, 2009,a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kenneth E. Melson was the chief director and head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in the United States.[2] He was appointed by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to head the agency on May 14, 2007.[3]
Melson has served in the United States Department of Justice as a federal prosecutor for nearly 24 years.[4] He resigned as head of the ATF after being under fire from Republicans and critics over the scandal surrounding the "Gunwalking" program of Operation Fast and Furious.[5] He was replaced by B. Todd Jones, a former Marine who has twice served as the U.S. attorney in Minnesota.
Kenneth E. Melson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Director Mueller, along with Acting Attorney General James B. Comey, offered to resign from office in March 2004 if the White House overruled a Department of Justice finding that domestic wiretapping without a court warrant was unconstitutional.[10] Attorney General John D. Ashcroft denied his consent to attempts by White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card and White House Counsel Alberto R. Gonzales to waive the Justice Department ruling and permit the domestic warrantless eavesdropping program to proceed. On March 12, 2004, President George W. Bush gave his support to changes in the program sufficient to satisfy the concerns of Mueller, Ashcroft and Comey.[10] The extent of the National Security Agency's domestic warrantless eavesdropping under the President's Surveillance Program is still largely unknown.
Robert Mueller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I think you missed this part:

On October 26, 2009, Bush was not president, was he? This is not Bush's baby, if you want to blame this on a Bush holdover then all of those who are in positions where they have done what a democrat deems good, then the credit should go to Bush, yes?