Vaccine Mandate Precedent: Jacobson v. Massachusetts

[dblack]

Yes. Why should some ignorant asshole be allowed to expose his co-workers to a deadly disease.

Lovely. So your boss now how has a vested interest in your medical records. How far up your ass do you want them?

 

[bendog]

That is the key difference. However, I am sure that if a federal mandate comes before the Supremes, they will refer to Jacobson and Zuch for guidance.

From Jacobson: While the exclusion of evidence in the state court in a case involving the constitutionality of a state statute may not strictly present a Federal question, this court may consider the rejection of such evidence upon the ground of incompetency or immateriality under the statute as showing its scope and meaning in the opinion of the state court.

Yeah. As for Excaliber's second argument - that most people don't die of covid - 1. it's debateable since our life expectancies dropped last year for the first time since WWII, and currently 1 in 500 has died of covid but 2) in any case a mandate like all laws has to be rationally related to a valid govt interest. As you pointed out, courts generally defer to a legislative body. Biden probably cannot just "announce" a federal mandate for every citizen. But as the chief executive he can issue order to federal workers and agencies have regulatory power over some private workers.

 

[bendog]

Lovely. So your boss now how has a vested interest in your medical records. How far up your ass do you want them?

I don't see any intrusion if a worker has to show his/her vaccination status ... just as public and college students have to.

 

[dblack]

I don't see any intrusion if a worker has to show his/her vaccination status ... just as public and college students have to.

It's the approach that most others me - conscripting businesses to be an enforcement arm of the government is a really BAD idea.

 

[Rawley]

Lying about vaccine mandates being ‘un-Constitutional’ and a ‘violation’ of citizens’ rights is yet another example of the right’s contempt for the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law.

Do you have any Constituional argument or precedent that a federal vaccine mandate is Constitutional? Your fellow travelers are failing miserably in that regard.

 

[Rawley]

I don't see any intrusion if a worker has to show his/her vaccination status ... just as public and college students have to.

The problem is the Federal government mandating it. Your company independently deciding to intrude in your personal medical business is one thing. Federal mandates is completely different ball of wax.

 

[Rawley]

Yeah. As for Excaliber's second argument - that most people don't die of covid - 1. it's debateable since our life expectancies dropped last year for the first time since WWII, and currently 1 in 500 has died of covid but 2) in any case a mandate like all laws has to be rationally related to a valid govt interest. As you pointed out, courts generally defer to a legislative body. Biden probably cannot just "announce" a federal mandate for every citizen. But as the chief executive he can issue order to federal workers and agencies have regulatory power over some private workers.

From where in the Constitution is a Federal mandate derived?

 

[Rogue AI]

Lying about vaccine mandates being ‘un-Constitutional’ and a ‘violation’ of citizens’ rights is yet another example of the right’s contempt for the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law.

I ask again, if the law and Constitution are on Biden's side, why doesn't he just issue an executive order for a nation wide 'vaccine' mandate? This should be fun.

 

[bendog]

It's the approach that most others me - conscripting businesses to be an enforcement arm of the government is a really BAD idea.

yeah, I can't think of the govt or OSHA requiring employers to ascertain an employee has done something in order to keep employing the employee. IF there is, I hope someone lets me know.

I don't see that it's any different than school enrollment except there's no employer. But generally adults don't need smallpox vaccines and the like.

From where in the Constitution is a Federal mandate derived?

There is no federal mandate. The president can mandate medical treatment for federal workers and congress can enact laws setting out regulation schemes for certain workers.

 

[dblack]

yeah, I can't think of the govt or OSHA requiring employers to ascertain an employee has done something in order to keep employing the employee. IF there is, I hope someone lets me know.

I don't see that it's any different than school enrollment except there's no employer. But generally adults don't need smallpox vaccines and the like.

There is no federal mandate. The president can mandate medical treatment for federal workers and congress can enact laws setting out regulation schemes for certain workers.

It's the "regulation schemes" that hide the mandates. If the government wants to force everyone to get vaccinated, they should pass a real law and make it happen with government enforcement. But because that's politically unpalatable, they use the backdoor of regulatory agencies (like OSHA) to point at employers and say "make it happen". That's chickenshit. It does an end run around procedural and constitutional limits on government power and obscures accountability. Which is why they do it.

And this is why libertarians oppose such "regulation schemes" in the first place. They are inevitably used to bully people for arbitrary purposes.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Lying about vaccine mandates being ‘un-Constitutional’ and a ‘violation’ of citizens’ rights is yet another example of the right’s contempt for the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law.

We'll see child.

 

[Rawley]

There is no federal mandate. The president can mandate medical treatment for federal workers and congress can enact laws setting out regulation schemes for certain workers.

How would such a regulation from OSHA not be a mandate?

 

[dblack]

How would such a regulation from OSHA not be a mandate

Even though it mandates that employers require their employees to be vaccinated, it's not really a mandate, see. It's just a "regulation scheme". That makes it all good.

 

[bendog]

Even though it mandates that employers require their employees to be vaccinated, it's not really a mandate, see. It's just a "regulation scheme". That makes it all good.

No not really. Rawley's question was what's the constitutional basis. There's no doubt that congress can create OSHA and other safety regulations. The issue is NOT constitutional. Rather, if the question is how can the Executive require "some" private employees get vaccinated (or tested fired furloughed), then the issue is whether the specific law grants the executive the power to do that.

I realize Biden or someone may have said "federal mandate" but there's no way for an executive to just order every private worker get vaccinated. I assume Congress could pass a law requiring an employee get a vaccination or the employee or employer would have pay "a tax,"

 

[dblack]

I realize Biden or someone may have said "federal mandate" but there's no way for an executive to just order every private worker get vaccinated. I assume Congress could pass a law requiring an employee get a vaccination or the employee or employer would have pay "a tax,"

Jesus - using the taxation backdoor is even worse than using the regulation backdoor. Our chickenshit leaders should have the courage to pass real laws - laws that must be voted on and can be challenged in court. Instead, they weasel around looking for ways to do achieve their ends that evade constraints and accountability.

 

[g5000]

what are you talking about? we took it from a European power…the UK

Yes, England. As opposed to most of the other European powers.

It is a bedrock of our legal system.

 

[g5000]

I'm not against proven vaccines. The average time from conception to approval by the the FDA is 12-15 years. So using common sense and doing the math I can reliably say, we don't have a fucking clue what the long term effects of the Covid vaccine are.

PLEASE watch this video. I have linked to the 4:38 mark. Pay attention to the question the guy with the guitar asks, and the answer the doctor gives.

 

[bendog]

Jesus - using the taxation backdoor is even worse than using the regulation backdoor. Our chickenshit leaders should have the courage to pass real laws - laws that must be voted on and can be challenged in court. Instead, they weasel around looking for ways to do achieve their ends that shield them from constraints and accountability.

Oh, well, I don't see the backdoor complaint. An unvacced person is more likely to cost more money, and the govt provides a no cost vac, so take it or pay a tax. That's less intrusive than "take a vax, or we lock u up in quarantine" which I think we did in the 18 and 19th centuries.

I suppose the power to provide for a natl defense might allow that. We make people register for a draft.

But I don't really think we'll see a "federal mandate."

 

[g5000]

I'm not against proven vaccines. The average time from conception to approval by the the FDA is 12-15 years. So using common sense and doing the math I can reliably say, we don't have a fucking clue what the long term effects of the Covid vaccine are.

In addition to what I posted in post 297, here is some more information on how the COVID 19 vaccine was developed so quickly. Work had been done in this field for decades.

The tangled history of mRNA vaccines

Hundreds of scientists had worked on mRNA vaccines for decades before the coronavirus pandemic brought a breakthrough.

www.nature.com

COVID-19 mRNA vaccines: How could anything developed this quickly be safe?

COVID-19 vaccines were not developed overnight. Here are the astounding stories behind mRNA vaccines.

www.uab.edu

 

[dblack]

Oh, well, I don't see the backdoor complaint.

Most people don't. That's why they use that exploit. That's why they get away with it.

But I don't really think we'll see a "federal mandate."

We already have, denials notwithstanding.