US Sues Az.

[Againsheila]

Perhaps some of our legal eagles could chime in to answer my question here:

The Feds' lawsuit against Arizona is on the grounds that immigration is a Federal concern and the states have no jurisdiction in enforcement of immigration laws. Presumably the states cannot take it upon themselves to make illegal immigration illegal in their state or pass laws to deal with it. So if the Feds don't deal with it, the state is simply out of luck.

But the Federal government has also passed federal laws controlling illegal substances. So why has there been no Federal protest when states have passed and enforced their own laws regarding such substances?

What's the difference?

The difference IS, Article 1, section 8, states Congress has the power over the Naturalization process, that includes Immigration.

1-8 also states no state can mint coins, so this would be another example of a federal sovereign right.

The Naturalization process has NOTHING to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

 

[AllieBaba]

Perhaps some of our legal eagles could chime in to answer my question here:

The Feds' lawsuit against Arizona is on the grounds that immigration is a Federal concern and the states have no jurisdiction in enforcement of immigration laws. Presumably the states cannot take it upon themselves to make illegal immigration illegal in their state or pass laws to deal with it. So if the Feds don't deal with it, the state is simply out of luck.

But the Federal government has also passed federal laws controlling illegal substances. So why has there been no Federal protest when states have passed and enforced their own laws regarding such substances?

What's the difference?

The difference IS, Article 1, section 8, states Congress has the power over the Naturalization process, that includes Immigration.

1-8 also states no state can mint coins, so this would be another example of a federal sovereign right.

But the state isn't making law or minting anything. The state is giving its own people permission to enforce the existing Federal law. And it is not more strenuous, in fact is less so, in enforcement than is the Federal law.

So again, how is that different than the states enforcing drug laws alongside the feds?

It's not. But why you're asking attorneys is beyond me. Obama has them planted all over the place...

 

[lawbuff]

The Naturalization process has NOTHING to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Read this case and then give me your opinion?

722 F2d 468 Gonzales v. City of Peoria | Open Jurist

 

[Foxfyre]

The Naturalization process has NOTHING to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Read this case and then give me your opinion?

722 F2d 468 Gonzales v. City of Peoria | Open Jurist

In this case the Court ruled that the Peoria Police were acting within their jurisdiction to enforce the law and the Federal government should not interefere with that.

It is this case in fact, that the State of Arizona used to justify giving their own law enforcement personnel authority to enforce the federal law as well as local and state laws.

So instead of posting a link, if you actually have legal expertise, help us out here.

How is Arizona enforcing federal laws related to illegal immigration different from Arizona enforcing federal laws related to drug trafficking?

 

[Zona]

hMMMMM....Brewar against the United States of America. Good luck there not voted in person, good luck. I love how you guys are all for a bill that was penned by a Klan supporter and being pushed by a woman that was never even elected to be in her position...God bless the u.s.a.

 

[Againsheila]

The Naturalization process has NOTHING to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Read this case and then give me your opinion?

722 F2d 468 Gonzales v. City of Peoria | Open Jurist

SB 1070 has things in it to prevent "profiling" and explicitly states that there must be reasonable suspicion. Have you read the bill?

 

[lawbuff]

The Naturalization process has NOTHING to do with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Read this case and then give me your opinion?

722 F2d 468 Gonzales v. City of Peoria | Open Jurist

In this case the Court ruled that the Peoria Police were acting within their jurisdiction to enforce the law and the Federal government should not interefere with that.

It is this case in fact, that the State of Arizona used to justify giving their own law enforcement personnel authority to enforce the federal law as well as local and state laws.

So instead of posting a link, if you actually have legal expertise, help us out here.

How is Arizona enforcing federal laws related to illegal immigration different from Arizona enforcing federal laws related to drug trafficking?

I personally don't see any, the claim is made by the feds.

Until AZ files it's reply, we don't know the exact details of thier authority.

I understand your Q and it is a good one.

 

[Foxfyre]

Read this case and then give me your opinion?

722 F2d 468 Gonzales v. City of Peoria | Open Jurist

In this case the Court ruled that the Peoria Police were acting within their jurisdiction to enforce the law and the Federal government should not interefere with that.

It is this case in fact, that the State of Arizona used to justify giving their own law enforcement personnel authority to enforce the federal law as well as local and state laws.

So instead of posting a link, if you actually have legal expertise, help us out here.

How is Arizona enforcing federal laws related to illegal immigration different from Arizona enforcing federal laws related to drug trafficking?

I personally don't see any, the claim is made by the feds.

Until AZ files it's reply, we don't know the exact details of thier authority.

I understand your Q and it is a good one.

Thanks. I do hope the question is answered appropriately and without manufactured manipulation by the Court and Arizona receives the same wise and necessary ruling as Peoria did.

 

[maineman]

Well, since I wasn't ON this board during Bush's Presidency, you actually have no idea about that, do you?

Did I misjudge you? Can you tell me that you were AGAINST the invasion/conquest/occupation of Iraq? Can you tell me that you were OUTRAGED that Dubya took us to war over WMD's that weren't there and that he implied connections between Iraq and Al Qaeda that were patently false? Can you tell me that you were INFURIATED by a president that SCARED many of us into supporting a war that only served to destabilize the region at an unholy cost to us of blood and treasure? If so, please say so. I'm all ears.

Absolutely I was against the invasion of Iraq, and I am on record previously on this board in saying so. IMO we should sent a SF team and killed Sadaam and his sons and told Iraq they could put whomever they wanted in charge but if that dude got out of line, we'd take care of him to.

Was I infuriated about the lies told? No, because bad intel happens,now if it's ever proven that the CIA lied on purpose , I'll be mad at them, but Bush didn't make the intel up, he went off what he was given.

I also have and continue to be outraged that Iraqi oil isn't being sold to pay for at least part of t his war.

And stop with the blood and treasure, you sound like a loon.

We are much closer on these issues than I would have thought. We differ slightly on the intel issue. I have no doubt that there was a lot of intelligence that suggested that Saddam might very well have WMD's... I also know that there was LOTS of caveats and qualifiers attached to LOTS of those bits of intelligence - things like analysts' doubting something because it was single sourced, or that it was based upon only photo interpretation or that it was just plain old and dated. IOW, there were levels of doubt and uncertainty about the quality - and therefore the accuracy - of the WMD intelligence. My beef with Team Bush at the time was that they stated unequivocally, that THERE WAS NO DOUBT that Saddam had stockpiles of WMD's. Now... they might have individually and collectively decided to disregard those doubts and move forward as if they did not exist... that's all well and good... but they SOLD the WMD argument to us as one where THERE WAS NO DOUBT... and they ALSO continued to imply a Saddam-AQ connection. THe combination of that unwarranted factual statement of certainty and the supposedly very real danger that Saddam would gladly GIVE some of his certain stockpiles of WMD's to his good buddy OBL to use on us AT ANY MOMENT!!!! YIKES!!!! MUSHROOM CLOUDS OVER AMERICAN CITIES!!! YIKES!!!! That is what made me realize that George Bush is the most despicable president we could ever possibly have. He was so abysmal he needed ***** Vader Cheney as a life insurance policy.

And blood and treasure is not loony sounding. It's just shorthand. Would you prefer that I said that the war in Iraq has needlessly cost us the lives of THOUSANDS of brave Americans and cost us all the potentially marvelous things they might have done with the rest of their lives... and has cost us so many fucking billions of dollars that it ought to make these hard core republicans who now whine about deficist slink away and hide their heads in shame?

And I completely agree with you about Iraqi oil. We were told that it would pay for this war and I still think it should.

 

[FA_Q2]

Found this on another site
Here are 14 reasons illegal aliens should vacate America,

1. $14 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens.(that' s Billion with a 'B') FAIR: Immigration and Welfare

2. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

3. $7.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they still cannot speak a word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts

5. $27 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. CNN.com - Transcripts

6. $3 Million Dollars 'PER DAY' is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. That's $1.2 Billion a year. CNN.com - Transcripts

7. 28% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

8. $190 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. - http://transcripts. cnn.com/TRANSCRI PTS/0610/ 29/ldt.01. html

9. $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. http://transcripts. cnn.com/TRANSCRI PTS/0606/ 12/ldt.01. html

11. During the year 2005, there were 8 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from other terrorist countries. Over 10,000 of those were middle-eastern terrorists. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, crack, Guns, and marijuana crossed into the U.S.from the southern border. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, estimates that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute./.org/publications.php?b= deportation

13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $65 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin, to their families and friends. Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?

14. The dark side of illegal immigration: Nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States! Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, Ph.D. - Criminal Profiler : Crime & Terrorism investigation resources




Read more: GOPUSA » Fresh Ink » Mr. President, American citizens are under attack. DO SOMETHING.
Kind of interesting don't you think?
In your opinion what is the benifit of having these people here?

That all pales in comparison to the "liberation" of Iraq. Want those daily numbers? DAILY NUMBERS....

That's all you have for the "US sues Az" thread?

So thats a no to you actaully requesting the numbers we are spending on a war started on a lie?

Do you have any idea how much money we are spending there? My point is, where were you when the OTHER administration was spending all that money..hell where were you when the OTHER administration had anytihng to do with money being spent on illegals. Its not like the illegal situation all of a sudden started happening in the last year and a half..

That all pales in comparison to the "liberation" of Iraq. Want those daily numbers? DAILY NUMBERS....

That's all you have for the "US sues Az" thread?

whether you agree or not, it certainly highlights the hypocrisy of the right's outrage over the "expense" of illegal immigration.

Really, does it?
Since no one actally wants to take this on, I will.
Using just the first 7 cited by Kee Kee (because I am somewhat dubious of the 190 Billion figure as that far exceedes even Iraq) and splitting the first in half at 18 billion that give us an ANNUAL spending of 67.9 BILLION dollars.
Cost of War | National Priorities Project
Given those numbers the average spending of the Iraq war over the last eight years is 93.2 BILLION. That is a difference of 25 BILLION a year. Thats right, immigration cost 70% as much as a WAR!!!! And yet here we are stammering on about how much worse the war is than immigration. I agree, never should have went there and I never supported the war in the first place but that does not make immigration any less of an issue. It stands that immigration is costing us 70% of that war and that is insane.

Now the REAL cost, the cost in American lives. That is the real travesty here.
Iraq War Facts, Statistics at June 29, 2010 - Iraq War Casualties, Spending

Using that sources figure, 4,413 us soldiers have been killed and 31,874 have been wounded. That is an average of 1.5 and 11 per day respectively for a total of 12.5 people harmed per day.
Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Crime Summary
This gives us 2,158 MURDERS committed each year by illegal immigrants. That gives us an average number of 6 people per day killed. That is a number that is larger than the deaths in Iraq by a factor of 4 and half that of ALL INJURIES COMBINED. This is only murder as well, that figure does not include the number of people killed in car accidents and does not account for the rest of the crimes committed including child molestation and rape. It is also unable to include those that are not caught whereas we can tabulate the toll in Iraq VERY accurately. So NO, immigration does NOT pale in comparison to the Iraq war. The simple fact that the war was wrong also does not change the fact that immigration needs to be dealt with either and to use the war to push immigration off is just plain stupid. This is not a matter that can wait any longer and should have been dealt with a LONG time ago.


.

 

[FA_Q2]

I'm no immigration lawyer, but it seems to me that the federal case revolves around the fact that individual states are not the ones to be deciding who or who is not a citizen or who is or is not entitled to be here. US citizenship status is not an issue for states to decide. Where is the legitimate argument against that position?

The state is not determining US citizenship, simply giving the feds the ones that do not follow the law regarding it.

 

[FA_Q2]

so if the federal govt wont do the regulating they are mandated to do.....what are the states affected by this supposed to do?.....nothing?...

Take up the issue in Congress.

They're too busy running car companies, healthcare and the financial system to bother with little things like this......

There is also the point that the federal government does not have the same attention to this matter because it is not a nationally shared issue. It IS a problem for the nation but it is a FAR LARGER problem experienced by the border states. The feds are not nearly as invested in immigration as those states where it is sinking them.


@ Fox
A FAR better parallel is the sanctuary city laws. Why is it that the federal government is going after AZ who is attempting to ASSIST the carrying out of the law where many cities in CA are PURPOSEFULLY blocking the immigration law? That is what I wish to understand. It has already caused serious problems where repeat violent offenders are only taken care of AFTER they murder someone. Good 'ol CA!!

 

[froggy]

Governor Jan Brewer: "As of this morning, we have raised almost $500k for AZ's defense fund. Help us stand up to the Feds".

 

[FA_Q2]

Found this on another site
Here are 14 reasons illegal aliens should vacate America,

1. $14 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens.(that' s Billion with a 'B') FAIR: Immigration and Welfare

2. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

3. $7.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. Center for Immigration Studies

4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they still cannot speak a word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts

5. $27 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. CNN.com - Transcripts

6. $3 Million Dollars 'PER DAY' is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. That's $1.2 Billion a year. CNN.com - Transcripts

7. 28% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

8. $190 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. - http://transcripts. cnn.com/TRANSCRI PTS/0610/ 29/ldt.01. html

9. $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
CNN.com - Transcripts

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. http://transcripts. cnn.com/TRANSCRI PTS/0606/ 12/ldt.01. html

11. During the year 2005, there were 8 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from other terrorist countries. Over 10,000 of those were middle-eastern terrorists. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, crack, Guns, and marijuana crossed into the U.S.from the southern border. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, estimates that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute./.org/publications.php?b= deportation

13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $65 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin, to their families and friends. Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?

14. The dark side of illegal immigration: Nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States! Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, Ph.D. - Criminal Profiler : Crime & Terrorism investigation resources




Read more: GOPUSA » Fresh Ink » Mr. President, American citizens are under attack. DO SOMETHING.
Kind of interesting don't you think?
In your opinion what is the benifit of having these people here?

So thats a no to you actaully requesting the numbers we are spending on a war started on a lie?

Do you have any idea how much money we are spending there? My point is, where were you when the OTHER administration was spending all that money..hell where were you when the OTHER administration had anytihng to do with money being spent on illegals. Its not like the illegal situation all of a sudden started happening in the last year and a half..

That's all you have for the "US sues Az" thread?

whether you agree or not, it certainly highlights the hypocrisy of the right's outrage over the "expense" of illegal immigration.

Really, does it?
Since no one actally wants to take this on, I will.
Using just the first 7 cited by Kee Kee (because I am somewhat dubious of the 190 Billion figure as that far exceedes even Iraq) and splitting the first in half at 18 billion that give us an ANNUAL spending of 67.9 BILLION dollars.
Cost of War | National Priorities Project
Given those numbers the average spending of the Iraq war over the last eight years is 93.2 BILLION. That is a difference of 25 BILLION a year. Thats right, immigration cost 70% as much as a WAR!!!! And yet here we are stammering on about how much worse the war is than immigration. I agree, never should have went there and I never supported the war in the first place but that does not make immigration any less of an issue. It stands that immigration is costing us 70% of that war and that is insane.

Now the REAL cost, the cost in American lives. That is the real travesty here.
Iraq War Facts, Statistics at June 29, 2010 - Iraq War Casualties, Spending

Using that sources figure, 4,413 us soldiers have been killed and 31,874 have been wounded. That is an average of 1.5 and 11 per day respectively for a total of 12.5 people harmed per day.
Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Crime Summary
This gives us 2,158 MURDERS committed each year by illegal immigrants. That gives us an average number of 6 people per day killed. That is a number that is larger than the deaths in Iraq by a factor of 4 and half that of ALL INJURIES COMBINED. This is only murder as well, that figure does not include the number of people killed in car accidents and does not account for the rest of the crimes committed including child molestation and rape. It is also unable to include those that are not caught whereas we can tabulate the toll in Iraq VERY accurately. So NO, immigration does NOT pale in comparison to the Iraq war. The simple fact that the war was wrong also does not change the fact that immigration needs to be dealt with either and to use the war to push immigration off is just plain stupid. This is not a matter that can wait any longer and should have been dealt with a LONG time ago.


.

Surprise, I met the challenge and they become mute......