US authorities should keep their hands from my bank data !

[Diuretic]

But you live with a government which represents the will of the people. How can you be against the will of the people??
Besides, if you have nothing to hide then it isn't a problem. Right??

So, if you have nothing to hide either, you certainly welcome any search of your private property without any warrant. This is the most stupid remark I know.
With that sentence anything can be justified.
You are against the Patriot act ? Aren´t you a patriot ?
You are against our anti-terror laws ? So you support terror ?
This kind of logic justifies any restriction of citizen rights.

No, the problem is that it is not my government sniffing around in my banking data, but a foreign government. In Germany I can let this control by a court or even sue my government for ignoring my basic rights. But in this case no german court can be adressed. And a US court neither, as they are not responsible.
So, in this case all sides found a nice way to bypass my constitutional rights and this I do not like.

Imagine your government would hand out your private data to Germany or Spain, without any justification, supervision or control by a US court. And in case the Germans find something interesting, US agencies will thankfully use it. But as the source is not under US jurisdiction you can neither counter check or even question it.

So, under the umbrella of the War against Terror again our rights are restricted.
I see this not as progress.

regards
ze germanguy

OK so now you might be getting the idea of the difference between a citizen and a subject. Citizens have rights they defend, including the right to keep and bear arms. The state is not simply the will of the people but an entity to itself, with a desire for ever more power over its citizens, in the name of keeping them safe.
This is why we have a Second Amendment in our country, along with a bill of rights. Every infringement on other rights began with restrictions on firearm ownership. This is simply a fact.

Oh please, "citizen and subject",

 

[Diuretic]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

Looking for criminals as well? Good stuff!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

Looking for criminals as well? Good stuff!

So trying to keep your rightfully earned property is engaging in criminal activity, and the people trying to steal your rightfully earned property are, I assume, victims? I believe that fits the term "Orwellian."

 

[germanguy]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

Looking for criminals as well? Good stuff!

So trying to keep your rightfully earned property is engaging in criminal activity, and the people trying to steal your rightfully earned property are, I assume, victims? I believe that fits the term "Orwellian."

Now we are coming closer to the real subject:

If US law enforcement agencies have unlimited access to the SWIFT data, I have no possibility to do anything about it. A foreign power is sniffing around in my data.
As this also gives vital data about which company in Europa is paying what to whom, it is also a nice tool for economic espionage.

There was much pressure from the US side involved, so the Europeans faltered.
Also, US authorities will hand out relevant data to their partners, which can be Europeans, but also other countries.

What I strongly reject is the idea, that vital basic rights are undermined. This kind of data collection is prohibited in Europe, so let´s hand the stuff to the Americans, what they find we get and can use it.

What gives me creeps is the fact, that since 9/11 we all in the West are happily giving away our rights. I do not want to get paranoid, but if I see, that Homeland Security has around 60 databases which are interlinked and has access to data the NSA and other agencies collect it gives me creeps.

As we are becoming a highly globalized world, obviously global standards must be set.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Douger]

Is money private property or property of the government?

Would appear to be private property. Why?

then why is it illegal to deface it and such?

Because they want it to be in good condition when they take it from you and give it to their cronies.

 

[Diuretic]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

Looking for criminals as well? Good stuff!

So trying to keep your rightfully earned property is engaging in criminal activity, and the people trying to steal your rightfully earned property are, I assume, victims? I believe that fits the term "Orwellian."

Flouting tax laws is a crime Kevin. Why should someone be permitted to disobey tax laws while so many people observe them?

 

[Alvin]

Is money private property or property of the government?

Would appear to be private property. Why?

then why is it illegal to deface it and such?

As I understand it, it's illegal to deface the physical currency, as only the government has the ability to replace it.
However what you do with the worth of that note is up to you.

It's one of those weird things, but "Money" isn't actually what is in your pocket. All that is is a way of keeping score.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Looking for criminals as well? Good stuff!

So trying to keep your rightfully earned property is engaging in criminal activity, and the people trying to steal your rightfully earned property are, I assume, victims? I believe that fits the term "Orwellian."

Flouting tax laws is a crime Kevin. Why should someone be permitted to disobey tax laws while so many people observe them?

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

 

[Diuretic]

So trying to keep your rightfully earned property is engaging in criminal activity, and the people trying to steal your rightfully earned property are, I assume, victims? I believe that fits the term "Orwellian."

Flouting tax laws is a crime Kevin. Why should someone be permitted to disobey tax laws while so many people observe them?

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Flouting tax laws is a crime Kevin. Why should someone be permitted to disobey tax laws while so many people observe them?

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

 

[germanguy]

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

Why not let Kevin not pay his taxes, but strap him from the benefits.
A world like that would be like the Ferengi Home World:
You want a police officer ? Pay first his service, then they will answer your call.
Using a road ? First pay for it.
A world full of cashier points....

Also, according to what I know, tax evasion from the US to Europe would be in most cases a not so clever idea...Even the Swiss are now cooperating with the IRS and other countries authorities.

No, what obviously nobody seems to disturb is the simply fact, that in the Brave New World of the War against Terror nearly everything seems to be allowed.
It is as here in Europe:
Taxation is for the most conservatives an intolerable limitation of the rights of the individual. But that the same state is gathering data and monitors our personal life in a way never thought about before, is not worth a second thought.

Strange..

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Alvin]

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

No it's not.
You know that you don't actually have to pay taxes?
All you need do is drop off the grid, live off the land. Don't earn anything, don't buy anything, and you won't pay tax.
But you'll still be a US citizen.

But you want to do the opposite of the above. Unfortunatly that costs.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

No it's not.
You know that you don't actually have to pay taxes?
All you need do is drop off the grid, live off the land. Don't earn anything, don't buy anything, and you won't pay tax.
But you'll still be a US citizen.

But you want to do the opposite of the above. Unfortunatly that costs.

If I want to own the land I live off of there will be a property tax, not to mention all the taxes and regulations I'll have to go through to get the guns to live off the land, and not to mention all the regulations that go along with hunting.

None of which changes the nature of taxation. It is not voluntary, it is coercion with the threat of violence.

 

[Diuretic]

If I want to own the land I live off of there will be a property tax, not to mention all the taxes and regulations I'll have to go through to get the guns to live off the land, and not to mention all the regulations that go along with hunting.

"The woods are full of wardens."

 

[Alvin]

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

No it's not.
You know that you don't actually have to pay taxes?
All you need do is drop off the grid, live off the land. Don't earn anything, don't buy anything, and you won't pay tax.
But you'll still be a US citizen.

But you want to do the opposite of the above. Unfortunatly that costs.

If I want to own the land I live off of there will be a property tax, not to mention all the taxes and regulations I'll have to go through to get the guns to live off the land, and not to mention all the regulations that go along with hunting.

None of which changes the nature of taxation. It is not voluntary, it is coercion with the threat of violence.

You own the land, that's the problem. You need to simplify.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No it's not.
You know that you don't actually have to pay taxes?
All you need do is drop off the grid, live off the land. Don't earn anything, don't buy anything, and you won't pay tax.
But you'll still be a US citizen.

But you want to do the opposite of the above. Unfortunatly that costs.

If I want to own the land I live off of there will be a property tax, not to mention all the taxes and regulations I'll have to go through to get the guns to live off the land, and not to mention all the regulations that go along with hunting.

None of which changes the nature of taxation. It is not voluntary, it is coercion with the threat of violence.

You own the land, that's the problem. You need to simplify.

How about the government simplifies and simply stops stealing from people? Obviously some level of taxation is necessary to run the government, even its legitimate functions. However, if we weren't overtaxed then people wouldn't be looking to hide their money from the feds overseas.

 

[mightypeon]

You are factually wrong.
In Nevada (some counties) there is legal prostitution. You can get an abortion in all 50 states. In some locales there is virtual legalization of minor drug possession. There is no locale where police brutality is not a crime. You can become Bundeskanzler in the US as well without being born here. Obviously you can become president now too! Many states do not have a death penalty.

I know about Nevade, but having prostitution outlawed is the norm in the USA.
I am no expert on Abortions, but the thing I wanted to say is that getting one is easier in Germany than even in the most liberal US states. Concerning police brutality: I was talking mainly about the numbers of "suspects killed by the police", and these numbers seem to be incredibly high in the USA. With Bundeskanzler (the person with the most de facto power in the German gouverment) I meant that someone not born in Germany could become Germanys most powerfull gouverment member.
Arent their kinds of a federal death penalty (definitly in the Military) which would ignore state laws? I am saying: the German gouverment never has the right to kill you, excluding a war situation.
In Germany, the minister of defense could not order an interceptor to shoot down a hijacked airplane in the case of a 9/11 esque attack, since state authorities have no right to blow up civilians.
Truth to be told, if my plane gets hijacked I would fancy my chances in hijacking it back, which would be bigger than 0 (Hej, as the passengers we should have a rather significant numeric superiority!) , than trying to survive an artificially nasty plane crash or an air defense missle.

 

[Polk]

Terrorism. Uh huh. What they're really looking for are U.S. citizens trying to protect their money from the U.S. government's over-taxation. Any European should be upset about this blatant violation of their liberty and right to privacy by a government that does not represent them.

There is no right to commit fraud.

 

[Polk]

Taxation is theft. Avoiding theft is only a crime in the mind of the state and its apologists.

Come on Kevin, taxation is a contribution to society. Would you turn up at a mate's place for a bbq empty handed? No, you bring a bottle or two, your entry ticket. You want to live in a society? You pay your way.

Taxation is a contribution, by force, to the state, not to society.

So if someone breaks into your house, I guess you won't call the police. After all, the existence of the police force is theft.

 

[Polk]

I am no expert on Abortions, but the thing I wanted to say is that getting one is easier in Germany than even in the most liberal US states.

A point on abortion: While it's technically legal nationally, it's de facto illegal in most states.