Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[theHawk]

I don't know if gods exist because there is no evidence to support the theory that they do.

The existence of life is proof God exists.

No scientist can explain how life come from lifeless materials. No scientist can recreate it.

They also cannot explain why or how the Big Bang started. They can’t explain why the universe is ordered the way it is. Einstein‘s theories showed us the rules of the physical universe, yet at the same time revealed such obvious paradoxes. So much so that scientists had to come up with silly ideas like “dark matter”, and “dark energy”, and “inflation” to explain how the galaxies and universe are ordered the way they are, because it defies the laws of physics.

 

[Red Front]

Not believing is the ticket to hell. All else can be forgiven.

Why would you worship a god that demands you believe in him, under the threat of being tortured in his hell for all eternity? What type of entity is this who you are worshiping? Why would an infinite GOD, demand that anyone grovel at his feet under threat of eternal damnation and torment? If this is the case, you're not going to worship this deity, from love, but from being terrorized. It's a religious ideology based on fear, not love.

I sincerely don't know if there's a God or an afterlife. I'm quite certain that the deity described in the bible is a figment of the human imagination. Ancient people from the bronze age created this tribal deity and worshipped it. I do believe in the existence of spirit entities, and the paranormal in general, but I don't know what or who these entities are. I've interacted with them, using a radio sweeper. I also experienced poltergeist activity in my home, when I lived in Tucson, Arizona.

 

[Arlette]

Why would you worship a god that demands you believe in him, under the threat of being tortured in his hell for all eternity? What type of entity is this who you are worshiping? Why would an infinite GOD, demand that anyone grovel at his feet under threat of eternal damnation and torment? If this is the case, you're not going to worship this deity, from love, but from being terrorized. It's a religious ideology based on fear, not love.

I sincerely don't know if there's a God or an afterlife. I'm quite certain that the deity described in the bible is a figment of the human imagination. Ancient people from the bronze age created this tribal deity and worshipped it. I do believe in the existence of spirit entities, and the paranormal in general, but I don't know what or who these entities are. I've interacted with them, using a radio sweeper. I also experienced poltergeist activity in my home, when I lived in Tucson, Arizona.

I wouldn't. Even if his existence could be proven I wouldn't worship the God of Abraham. Too nasty for me

 

[Red Front]

The existence of life is proof God exists.

No scientist can explain how life come from lifeless materials. No scientist can recreate it.

They also cannot explain why or how the Big Bang started. They can’t explain why the universe is ordered the way it is. Einstein‘s theories showed us the rules of the physical universe, yet at the same time revealed such obvious paradoxes. So much so that scientists had to come up with silly ideas like “dark matter”, and “dark energy”, and “inflation” to explain how the galaxies and universe are ordered the way they are, because it defies the laws of physics.

There was a lot that scientists didn't know 100 or 200 years ago and through research, they eventually discovered the nature of many of those previously unknown phenomena and aspects of reality. Science isn't done studying the cosmos, so resorting to the "god of the gaps" is a mistake. Right now, we don't know how the universe came to be with all of its present laws. We don't know exactly how non-living matter can create life. There are a few hypotheses, but we don't know exactly how it happened, assuming it happened at all. The honest answer is "I DON'T KNOW". We are searching, but we don't know.

If there is an intelligent source for our universe, on what grounds do you assume that this intelligence is YHWH, the God of the Israelites? Why not the God of the Muslims, or the God/s of the Hindus, or a plethora of other deities? Maybe that intelligence is completely different from what we've contrived in our little human-ape brains. The most honest answer to the question of what or who created this universe is, again, I DON'T KNOW. We don't really know, and to claim otherwise amounts to being delusional and weak-minded.

 

[Arlette]

There was a lot that scientists didn't know 100 or 200 years ago and through research, they eventually discovered the nature of many of those previously unknown phenomena and aspects of reality. Science isn't done studying the cosmos, so resorting to the "god of the gaps" is a mistake. Right now, we don't know how the universe came to be with all of its present laws. We don't know exactly how non-living matter can create life. There are a few hypotheses, but we don't know exactly how it happened, assuming it happened at all. The honest answer is "I DON'T KNOW". We are searching, but we don't know.

If there is an intelligent source for our universe, on what grounds do you assume that this intelligence is YHWH, the God of the Israelites? Why not the God of the Muslims, or the God/s of the Hindus, or a plethora of other deities? Maybe that intelligence is completely different from what we've contrived in our little human-ape brains. The most honest answer to the question of what or who created this universe is, again, I DON'T KNOW. We don't really know, and to claim otherwise amounts to being delusional and weak-minded.

They like the idea that all of creation happened with their dumb ass in mind. Makes em feel special.

 

[Red Front]

I wouldn't. Even if his existence could be proven I wouldn't worship the God of Abraham. Too nasty for me

I find it cruel, if not evil, to damn humanity based on the error of one man and his wife, eating from the wrong fruit tree. The whole universe went helter-skelter, because a caveman back in the Stoneage, ate from the wrong fruit tree, after being tempted by a talking snake. This is an ancient, bronze-age religion, that stones people to death for not keeping the sabbath or burning women alive for being harlots. There's a law in the Torah that orders Levite fathers to burn their daughters for harlotry. This is just bronze-age barbarism.

I saw a video online about ten years ago, of an Iranian woman who was stoned to death by the people of her village for being a prostitute. She stood in a hole in the ground, with the upper half of her torso, including her shoulders, and her head exposed. It was the most horrendous, monstrous act of violence I've ever witnessed on video. Worse than the videos I've seen of ISIS cutting people's heads off with a kitchen knife. Those are horrible too, but the stoning of this woman, was even worse than that. The stones eventually reduced this poor woman to a bloody, amorphous mass of human meat. They kept throwing large stones at her, while she was completely unconscious, reducing her, literally, to pieces of bloody meat.

Stoning was common practice in the middle east in ancient times and even today in countries like Iran and Afghanistan..

 

[Red Front]

They like the idea that all of creation happened with their dumb ass in mind. Makes em feel special.

Exactly. There's a lot we don't know, so we shouldn't assume the universe was created just for us.

 

[Arlette]

I find it cruel, if not evil, to damn humanity based on the error of one man and his wife, eating from the wrong fruit tree. The whole universe went helter-skelter, because a caveman back in the Stoneage, ate from the wrong fruit tree, after being tempted by a talking snake. This is an ancient, bronze-age religion, that stones people to death for not keeping the sabbath or burning women alive for being harlots. There's a law in the Torah that orders Levite fathers to burn their daughters for harlotry. This is just bronze-age barbarism.

I saw a video online about ten years ago, of an Iranian woman who was stoned to death by the people of her village for being a prostitute. She stood in a hole in the ground, with the upper half of her torso, including her shoulders, and her head exposed. It was the most horrendous, monstrous act of violence I've ever witnessed on video. Worse than the videos I've seen of ISIS cutting people's heads off with a kitchen knife. Those are horrible too, but the stoning of this woman, was even worse than that. The stones eventually reduced this poor woman to a bloody, amorphous mass of human meat. They kept throwing large stones at her, while she was completely unconscious, reducing her, literally, to pieces of bloody meat
Stoning was common practice in the middle east in ancient times and even today in countries like Iran and Afghanistan..

It's the perfect business model. Invent a condition - sin - for which only you has the remedy. You stay in business forever with dumb people.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet this is the Gospel. Jesus accepted the full wrath of God so that we did not have to.

You realize you are rejecting the very verses your Catholic forefathers decided to include in the Bible, I hope.

I return to the primary sources which is the intent of the original author, in the original language, to the original audience. Some of that is even before Church Fathers. An example is "wrath of God.' While today the English version translates into great anger, the original Hebrew and Greek speak of other things. Hebrew is a language of pictures--and it also acknowledges God's emotions are not human emotions. When bad things happen, it signifies it is outside the ways of God. The root or 'wrath' in ancient Greek signifies great emotion of any kind. An example might be great compassion that stirs one to act.

Once again, Sue, I have no issues with anyone who believes God was filled with such great anger and wrath that He had to punish someone--and that He chose Jesus to be tortured and killed to calm His anger to the extent human sins no longer mattered. One punishment for all for all time. Even this perspective leads straight back to what Jesus said: Sins are forgiven. That belief is common to both our perspectives even though we see God and what He did with extremely different perspectives.

I see God, stirred to great compassion over the human battle with sin. He wanted His people to know that turning away from sin and towards obedience will win the battle and they will sin no more. Jesus was sent with the authority to proclaim this New Testament/Covenant between God and mankind. Some tried to stop him, but obedience to God won the day. Repentance for the forgiveness of sin is well known. Keep in mind the original meaning of "Repentance" is not sorrow, but turning away from sin, changing one's mind about committing a sin.

 

[Meriweather]

So in your reckoning, God revealed Revelation to John to tell Christians not to abandon their faith because who would take care of their kids.

What a terrible, awful rendering of the Book that gave us a glimpse of the Throne of Heaven. What a travesty.

Sigh. John wrote the Book of Revelation in Apocalyptic literary form for the people and their suffering in his own time--i.e., first century Christians. As always, the truths of scripture are timeless and today, people who are being persecuted for their faith can relate to those who went through persecution in an earlier age.

What happens when someone suffers persecution for their faith? Worldly goods and services are taken from them. They are imprisoned, tortured, killed. What happens to them has a profound effect on their dependents.

 

[Meriweather]

Not believing is the ticket to hell. All else can be forgiven.

Hell is separation from God. Hell is a choice. If someone wants nothing to do with God and/or the Ways of God, one can choose complete separation/hell.

 

[Arlette]

Hell is separation from God. Hell is a choice. If someone wants nothing to do with God and/or the Ways of God, one can choose complete separation/hell.

It ain't so bad

 

[Meriweather]

I wouldn't. Even if his existence could be proven I wouldn't worship the God of Abraham. Too nasty for me

Actually, He is not. People reading the English accounts from the perspective of Modern Western Culture often, however, sadly reach that conclusion.

 

[buttercup]

Why would you worship a god that demands you believe in him, under the threat of being tortured in his hell for all eternity? What type of entity is this who you are worshiping? Why would an infinite GOD, demand that anyone grovel at his feet under threat of eternal damnation and torment? If this is the case, you're not going to worship this deity, from love, but from being terrorized. It's a religious ideology based on fear, not love.

I sincerely don't know if there's a God or an afterlife. I'm quite certain that the deity described in the bible is a figment of the human imagination. Ancient people from the bronze age created this tribal deity and worshipped it. I do believe in the existence of spirit entities, and the paranormal in general, but I don't know what or who these entities are. I've interacted with them, using a radio sweeper. I also experienced poltergeist activity in my home, when I lived in Tucson, Arizona.

Nice strawman you've set up there. Heck, I can see why you're a nonbeliever if that's really your perception of God.

 

[Arlette]

Actually, He is not. People reading the English accounts from the perspective of Modern Western Culture often, however, sadly reach that conclusion.

I realize that lots of people see him differently. I'm just too lazy for the mental gymnastics.

 

[Meriweather]

It ain't so bad

Reflect on all that is usually seen as good and loving. Those are the ways of God.

Hell would be a place where selfish people live in the midst of selfish people. Rather than serve or lend others a hand, others are there simply to be used. Love and tenderness are unknown.

 

[Meriweather]

I realize that lots of people see him differently. I'm just too lazy for the mental gymnastics.

I am awful at gymnastics of any kind so I can relate to that. Still shudder remembering my cartwheels and vaulting in high school gym. However, the one odd thing I have always loved is research. While a forward roll might be beyond my abilities, research and writing essays were a breeze.

Scripture study and research means researching languages, cultures, ancient histories of nations still known but also those long forgotten. This takes decades, more than one lifetime, and frankly there are other hobbies and interests that eat into time spent on research. You are not too lazy! You simply have other great interests and talents. But I would counsel remembering God is a being of pure love. Even imperfect man with imperfect accounts can't keep that great love of God from peeping through.

 

[Arlette]

I am awful at gymnastics of any kind so I can relate to that. Still shudder remembering my cartwheels and vaulting in high school gym. However, the one odd thing I have always loved is research. While a forward roll might be beyond my abilities, research and writing essays were a breeze.

Scripture study and research means researching languages, cultures, ancient histories of nations still known but also those long forgotten. This takes decades, more than one lifetime, and frankly there are other hobbies and interests that eat into time spent on research. You are not too lazy! You simply have other great interests and talents. But I would counsel remembering God is a being of pure love. Even imperfect man with imperfect accounts can't keep that great love of God from peeping through.

In all your studies, have you ever tackled theodicy?

 

[buttercup]

It's the perfect business model. Invent a condition - sin - for which only you has the remedy. You stay in business forever with dumb people.

Oh, so things like lying, stealing, murdering, those are all just figments of our imagination? Guess what, if your answer is no, then you agree that sin is an actual thing...the difference is that you take God out of the equation. Unfortunately for you, that view doesn't hold up logically. But I'm not going to elaborate on that right now, it's too early in the day to be getting into heavy debates.

 

[Arlette]

Oh, so things like lying, stealing, murdering, those are all just figments of our imagination? Guess what, if your answer is no, then you agree that sin is an actual thing...the difference is that you take God out of the equation. Unfortunately for you, that view doesn't hold up logically. But I'm not going to elaborate on that right now, it's too early in the day to be getting into heavy debates.

The jails are full of believers. All I was trying to point out is that without the reality of death a religion wouldn't be possible. They all peddle the same thing - believe my bullshit and you don't really have to die.