Ultimate energy source

[JoeMoma]

Did the farmer have to feed all four horses, or just one?

Joe, this has been a nice exchange of views and still I am brain dead, stuck in a rut and common since is not going to set me free.

Your example was a good one with one small flaw. The process is a linear one but due to the timeline multiple balloons are pulling on the same cable increasing the pulling force on the cable which is greater than the force needed to sustain the system.

I’m going to take my meds, a short nap then later I will return. Maybe by then I will have seen the light, ending this merry-go-round.

Later -

You have to pay for filling all the balloons just as you have to pay for feeding all the horses. Using your logic, you could analyze your system at a moment when you are not even filling a balloon and think you have the energy of five balloons pulling for free. It doesn't work that way. When you have balloons number 1,2,3,4,and 5 pulling together, you must have filled all 5 with air. Suppose each balloon can pull 10 pounds up to the surface. 5 balloons can pull one 50 lb object up to the surface, or each individual balloon can pull one ten pound object to the surface. The total weight pulled to the surface is 50 lbs either way.

That being said, the formula for kinetic energy is 1/2 *mass*velocity squared. The drag of the water will greatly slow the movement of the mass being moved by the buoyant forces. Since the velocity variable is squared in the energy calculation, any reduction of velocity will result in a great reduction of kinetic energy with your device. In other words, the energy absorbed by the drag of the water will be very high.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Everyone who said it won't work is in the know.

Finally now I know; for thousands of years most of us believed the earth was flat. Who would have known it wasn’t?

Toddsterpatriot it’s possible that your great, great, great, great grandfather was the first to know the earth was round.

No disrespect intended or implied

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[JoeMoma]

Everyone who said it won't work is in the know.

Finally now I know; for thousands of years most of us believed the earth was flat. Who would have known it wasn’t?

Toddsterpatriot it’s possible that your great, great, great, great grandfather was the first to know the earth was round.

No disrespect intended or implied

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In this thread you have been like the flat Earther that no one can convince that the Earth is round. In this age in which people have built machines hundreds of times more advanced than your contraption, don't you think some would have built a machine that would multiply the input energy for a greater output if it were mechanically possible. Thousands of people have thought that they had designed such a device just to find it will not work as intended once built.

 

[watchingfromafar]

In this thread you have been like the flat Earther

Thanks, I take that as a compliment
wish the same to you as well
the best to you and yours
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[JoeMoma]

In this thread you have been like the flat Earther

Thanks, I take that as a compliment
wish the same to you as well
the best to you and yours
-

The thought has crossed my mind that you you have been trolling us by pretending to not understand the explanations as to why your device cannot generate more energy than is input to it.

 

[watchingfromafar]

The thought has crossed my mind that you you have been trolling us

For the first time I finally understand what the term “trolling” means. Trolling seems to mean repeating, as in the same notion as rain drops only here its different; raindrops are random. I agree that I have been stuck on a specific topic to nausea and most it seems believe I should stop talking to myself. For those here who feel offended; please forgive me, I mean no harm.

If needed, I’ll donate just to talk to myself. At least I get to read back my thoughts in peace.

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by pretending to not understand the explanations as to why your device cannot generate more energy than is input to it.

Believe me, I am not pretending anything. “Pretending” is not a thought I had; the thought came from you, not me

At least the mods here have not banned me for gibberish.
On another talk board my fantasy got this response--
You have been banned for the following reason:
No impossible machines - you still do not understand basic physics of conservation of energy.
Date the ban will be lifted: Never
Engineers Edge - Reference Data for Engineers | GD&T ASME Training | GD&T Training | DFM DFA Training | Engineering Supplies Store | Engineering Tools for productivity

All I can say is thank you mods for letting me talk no myself here.

-

 

[JoeMoma]

If needed, I’ll donate just to talk to myself. At least I get to read back my thoughts in peace.

You don't need a message board to "talk to" yourself. You can simply keep a journal.

You were seeking feedback about your idea from others, but lack enough knowledge of physics to understand the feedback, so you simply reject it. I am not surprised that you, or at least a thread on your "impossible machine" would be banned from an engineering forum.

 

[watchingfromafar]

You were seeking feedback about your idea from others, but lack enough knowledge of physics to understand the feedback, so you simply reject it..

I'm not rejecting anything; I'm just trying to understand the numbers.
So I’ve decided to start from the beginning and from there retrace my footsteps that got me here.

To get there I need to validate a few physical principles that you agree to be valid.

JoeMoma, first let’s both agree on a few facts

Pressure is the measurable force being applied between two (2) physical barriers. One technical term is pounds per square inch as in P.S.I.

JueMoma, do you agree with the above.

You may be right, so I’ve decided to start from the beginning and from there follow my footsteps that ot me to where I am today.

To get there I need to validate a few physical principles that all here believe to be valid.

are true and valid.

JoeMoma, let’s both agree on a few facts first.

Pressure is the measurable force being applied between two (2) physical barriers.

“the pressure exerted by the weight of the atmosphere, which at sea level has a mean value of Atmospheric pressure, also known as barometric pressure, is the pressure within the atmosphere of Earth. The standard atmosphere is a unit of pressure defined as 101,325 Pa, which is equivalent to 760 mm Hg, 29.9212 inches Hg, or 14.696 psi. Wikipedia 101,325 pascals (roughly 14.6959 pounds per square inch).”

JueMoma, do you agree with the above.

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[watchingfromafar]

JueMoma, if you were to entrap a cubic foot of air which is naturally under a pressure of “zero” and noted as 1 ATM.

If you drag that bag underwater to a depth of 33 feet, the pressure on the bag would will be 2 ATM’s.

At 2 ATMs the bag will be compressed to half its volume.

At 3 ATMs the bag will be compressed to half its volume.

Do we agree-? -

 

[JoeMoma]

Pressure is the measurable force being applied between two (2) physical barriers.

Not exactly.
Pressure is force/area.

 

[JoeMoma]

JueMoma, if you were to entrap a cubic foot of air which is naturally under a pressure of “zero” and noted as 1 ATM.

If you drag that bag underwater to a depth of 33 feet, the pressure on the bag would will be 2 ATM’s.

At 2 ATMs the bag will be compressed to half its volume.

At 3 ATMs the bag will be compressed to half its volume.

Do we agree-? -

The volume of the air is inversely proportional to the pressure. Each time the pressure doubles, the volume of the air is reduced by half.

Given 1 cubic foot of air at 1 ATM

At 2 ATM the volume of the air is 1/2 cubit foot. (half of 1 cubit foot)

At 4 ATM the volume of the air is 1/4 cubic foot (half of 1/2 cubit foot)

At 8 ATM the volume of the air is 1/8 cubic foot. ( half of 1/4 cubit foot)

At 16 ATM the volume of air is 1/16 cubic foot ( half of 1/8 cubit foot)

and so on.....for a while........but at some point the compressed air will transition from gas to a liquid and the volume will no longer be reduced by this pattern.

Note: This is all assuming that the temperature of the air is somehow held constant.

I recommend again that you go through the physics lessons at khan academy. You will get much better lessons there than I can give you.

Physics | Science | Khan Academy

 

[watchingfromafar]

Not exactly.
Pressure is force/area.

I agree, I believe “force” and “area” together with the speed of the interaction plays a part.

or so it seems -

 

[watchingfromafar]

The volume of the air is inversely proportional to the pressure. Each time the pressure doubles, the volume of the air is reduced by half.

Given 1 cubic foot of air at 1 ATM

At 2 ATM the volume of the air is 1/2 cubit foot. (half of 1 cubit foot)

At 4 ATM the volume of the air is 1/4 cubic foot (half of 1/2 cubit foot)

At 8 ATM the volume of the air is 1/8 cubic foot. ( half of 1/4 cubit foot)

At 16 ATM the volume of air is 1/16 cubic foot ( half of 1/8 cubit foot)

and so on.....for a while........but at some point the compressed air will transition from gas to a liquid and the volume will no longer be reduced by this pattern.

Note: This is all assuming that the temperature of the air is somehow held constant.

I recommend again that you go through the physics lessons at khan academy. You will get much better lessons there than I can give you.

Thank you very much. I am redesigning the latest model to follow those principles.

 

[JoeMoma]

Not exactly.
Pressure is force/area.

I agree, I believe “force” and “area” together with the speed of the interaction plays a part.

or so it seems -

pressure is force/area, nothing more and nothing less. You would understand physics better if you stop making up your own definitions.

By the way, I am no expert myself. But I do have an elementary understanding of physics as I have a degree in industrial engineering.

 

[watchingfromafar]

I agree, I believe “force” and “area” together with the speed of the interaction plays a part.

The volume of the air is inversely proportional to the pressure. Each time the pressure doubles, the volume of the air is reduced by half.
Given 1 cubic foot of air at 1 ATM = (X)

At 2 ATM the volume of the air is 1/2 cubit foot. (half of 1 cubit foot) = 1/2(X)

At 4 ATM the volume of the air is 1/4 cubic foot (half of 1/2 cubit foot) = 1/4(X)

At 8 ATM the volume of the air is 1/8 cubic foot. ( half of 1/4 cubit foot) = 1/8th (X)

At 16 ATM the volume of air is 1/16 cubic foot ( half of 1/8 cubit foot) = 1/16th (X)

Now flip that over and apply a force equal to 64 pounds; or one cubic foot of air; and look at it from the bottom up--

Starting at the bottom with air compressed to 150 cubic feet of air.at 18 ATM's

Then let it go~~~~
and the next; let it go~~~~~

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[JoeMoma]

The volume of the air is inversely proportional to the pressure. Each time the pressure doubles, the volume of the air is reduced by half.

Given 1 cubic foot of air at 1 ATM

At 2 ATM the volume of the air is 1/2 cubit foot. (half of 1 cubit foot)

At 4 ATM the volume of the air is 1/4 cubic foot (half of 1/2 cubit foot)

At 8 ATM the volume of the air is 1/8 cubic foot. ( half of 1/4 cubit foot)

At 16 ATM the volume of air is 1/16 cubic foot ( half of 1/8 cubit foot)

and so on.....for a while........but at some point the compressed air will transition from gas to a liquid and the volume will no longer be reduced by this pattern.
nd
Note: This is all assuming that the temperature of the air is somehow held constant.

I recommend again that you go through the physics lessons at khan academy. You will get much better lessons there than I can give you.

Thank you very much. I am redesigning the latest model to follow those principles.

If you are going to redesign you model anyway, try getting it out from under water. In other words, try pumping water up 600 feet and fill buckets rather than pumping air down 600 ft under water to fill balloons. The math will be much easier because you will not have to be concerned with the compression of the air. And your machine will be more energy efficient because the drag/friction of the seawater will be gone. However, your machine will never output more energy than is input because that is a violation of the law of conservation of energy.

 

[watchingfromafar]

If you are going to redesign you model anyway, try getting it out from under water.

The total design is relying on the increasing pressure as you traveled further under water or in the reverse, the increasing lifting force of air as at .rises.

In other words, try pumping water up 600 feet and fill buckets rather than pumping air down 600 ft under water to fill balloons. The math will be much easier.

Give me some numbers--
just asking -

 

[watchingfromafar]

However, your machine will never output more energy than is input because that is a violation of the law of conservation of energy.

I disagree, not in the definition but in the application.
This is not a PMM; this is simply a machine using the lifting force of enclosed gas underwater.
it's that simple
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[JoeMoma]

However, your machine will never output more energy than is input because that is a violation of the law of conservation of energy.

I disagree, not in the definition but in the application.
This is not a PMM; this is simply a machine using the lifting force of enclosed gas underwater.
it's that simple
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And you have every right to be wrong. I'm done here. You are free to talk to yourself until the cows come home. And the cows aren't coming.

 

[San Souci]

The only good energy is Fossil Fuel and Nuclear. All others fail to measure up.