Ukraine War - the problem of US Propaganda

[DarthTrader]

In order to understand some terminology you would have to have read this: Imperial Ambitions in an Age of Decline

I argue that the US has ventured into two distinct micromilitaristic ventures that ended in complete failures. In both Iraq and Afghanistan, the two countries are now more subservient to the Russia-Iran-China axis than before when the US entered them. Under the old Taliban Afghanistan was vehemently anti-Russian, now it sells US weapons to Russia and is a leading trade partner with Russia, Iran and China. Iraq, one third of the country is owned by Russia outright, and another half is owned by Iran. China plays all sides.

There are two types of militaristic adventures that Empires use:

• Micro-militaristic - think:
  • US invading Grenada
  • US invading Iraq
  • US invading Afghanistan
  • USSR invading Afghanistan
• Macro-militaristic - think:
  • US/USSR power struggle in Korea
  • Vietnam
  • USSR in Hungary
  • Allies vs. Axis powers

The nature of these are distinctly different. In the micro-militaristic adventure the Empire's goal is an "easy win" and maybe to make money. In an Empire in decline this venture usually results in losing money and losing the war. US has suffered this at least twice on a grand scale.

USSR lost Afghanistan in an equally grand way.

The problem with US propaganda is this:

The US wants YOU to think Russia's war in Ukraine is a Micro-militaristic adventure when actually it's not.

The reason for this is simple, US elites and political class want to believe this is a micro-militaristic adventure where Russia's goal is prestige and capital driven. Thus they have moved the entire western population to believe that Russia is embarrassed and failing all its objectives which tends to hasten the defeat of Empires. How can Russia have failed so miserably on such a weak country? The US wants us to think that Ukraine is weaker than Iraq or Afghanistan. That Kiev would fall in hours or maybe a day at most.

Reality: Russia's war in Ukraine is MACRO-MILITARISM.

They are not there for adventurism and money. NATO crossed a red line that Russia cannot accept and they have executed a grand strategy that is not limited to Ukraine.

1. Ukraine is not as weak as Iraq or Afghanistan.
   1. Ukraine has been built-up militarily with modern equipment and advisors and training for decades.
   2. Ukraine is the second most powerful country in the former USSR, behind Russia.
   3. Ukraine's military is something like 30% the size of Russia's somewhat formidable.
2. Ukraine isn't Russia's Grand Strategy.
   1. Russia's Grand Strategy is to collapse the US Dollar
   2. I'm of the opinion that they have done significant damage to the US Dollar.
   3. Russia's commodity position is amazing - buffering it from Western Sanction in a way that USSR never could have achieved
      1. This is because after 30 years, Russia was integrated into the global economy.
      2. In 1991, Russia/USSR had been isolated from the global economy since 1917.
      3. Russian Empire pre-1917 was hardly apart of the global economy even then.
   4. Russia's position is therefore much stronger now than it ever was when confronted in the Cold War.
      1. Unraveling this problem will require a lot more work and pain.
3. Russia's Grand Strategy includes:
   1. Collapsing the US Dollar as a reserve currency.
   2. Ending Western/IMF control of global capital.
   3. Ending SWIFT.
   4. Securing Ukraine as a buffer between Russia and "real NATO".
      1. Baltics aren't real NATO.
4. Russia's macro-military engagement is asymmetrical in the right ways.
   1. When US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan it didn't try to meet par, it tried to show off and went too big too flashy and too costly.
   2. US is more mindful of cost when it's more money-driven micro-militarism like Libya. Libya gave Libyan oil to the US and France, and is a blip on the budget.
5. Russia therefore is invading Ukraine like US attacked Libya.
   1. It may seem grand in scale but that's only because Ukraine is a larger military power than Germany and France combined.
   2. Russia's invasion is very cheap, using the oldest equipment and ammunition first for most of the objectives, and sending in last-minute conscripts to do most of the heavy lifting.
      1. That may seem to be causing a failure of objectives but their objectives are probably not to conquer territory but to ruin Ukraine financially and any chance of its independence by occupying more territory in the east and its largest power plants.

So all this being said....

US Propaganda is highly misleading.

Russia is fighting a very different war than the US is used to lately. And because of it we think that "retreat" means collapse and that time means "failure".

It's very likely that Russia is ok with keeping the war perpetual. It prevents Ukraine from being anything more than a ruined dump.

While Russia's real targets are the international monetary order.

 

[gipper]

You might be right.

 

[B. Kidd]

In order to understand some terminology you would have to have read this: Imperial Ambitions in an Age of Decline

I argue that the US has ventured into two distinct micromilitaristic ventures that ended in complete failures. In both Iraq and Afghanistan, the two countries are now more subservient to the Russia-Iran-China axis than before when the US entered them. Under the old Taliban Afghanistan was vehemently anti-Russian, now it sells US weapons to Russia and is a leading trade partner with Russia, Iran and China. Iraq, one third of the country is owned by Russia outright, and another half is owned by Iran. China plays all sides.

There are two types of militaristic adventures that Empires use:

• Micro-militaristic - think:
  • US invading Grenada
  • US invading Iraq
  • US invading Afghanistan
  • USSR invading Afghanistan
• Macro-militaristic - think:
  • US/USSR power struggle in Korea
  • Vietnam
  • USSR in Hungary
  • Allies vs. Axis powers

The nature of these are distinctly different. In the micro-militaristic adventure the Empire's goal is an "easy win" and maybe to make money. In an Empire in decline this venture usually results in losing money and losing the war. US has suffered this at least twice on a grand scale.

USSR lost Afghanistan in an equally grand way.

The problem with US propaganda is this:

The US wants YOU to think Russia's war in Ukraine is a Micro-militaristic adventure when actually it's not.

The reason for this is simple, US elites and political class want to believe this is a micro-militaristic adventure where Russia's goal is prestige and capital driven. Thus they have moved the entire western population to believe that Russia is embarrassed and failing all its objectives which tends to hasten the defeat of Empires. How can Russia have failed so miserably on such a weak country? The US wants us to think that Ukraine is weaker than Iraq or Afghanistan. That Kiev would fall in hours or maybe a day at most.

Reality: Russia's war in Ukraine is MACRO-MILITARISM.

They are not there for adventurism and money. NATO crossed a red line that Russia cannot accept and they have executed a grand strategy that is not limited to Ukraine.

1. Ukraine is not as weak as Iraq or Afghanistan.
   1. Ukraine has been built-up militarily with modern equipment and advisors and training for decades.
   2. Ukraine is the second most powerful country in the former USSR, behind Russia.
   3. Ukraine's military is something like 30% the size of Russia's somewhat formidable.
2. Ukraine isn't Russia's Grand Strategy.
   1. Russia's Grand Strategy is to collapse the US Dollar
   2. I'm of the opinion that they have done significant damage to the US Dollar.
   3. Russia's commodity position is amazing - buffering it from Western Sanction in a way that USSR never could have achieved
      1. This is because after 30 years, Russia was integrated into the global economy.
      2. In 1991, Russia/USSR had been isolated from the global economy since 1917.
      3. Russian Empire pre-1917 was hardly apart of the global economy even then.
   4. Russia's position is therefore much stronger now than it ever was when confronted in the Cold War.
      1. Unraveling this problem will require a lot more work and pain.
3. Russia's Grand Strategy includes:
   1. Collapsing the US Dollar as a reserve currency.
   2. Ending Western/IMF control of global capital.
   3. Ending SWIFT.
   4. Securing Ukraine as a buffer between Russia and "real NATO".
      1. Baltics aren't real NATO.
4. Russia's macro-military engagement is asymmetrical in the right ways.
   1. When US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan it didn't try to meet par, it tried to show off and went too big too flashy and too costly.
   2. US is more mindful of cost when it's more money-driven micro-militarism like Libya. Libya gave Libyan oil to the US and France, and is a blip on the budget.
5. Russia therefore is invading Ukraine like US attacked Libya.
   1. It may seem grand in scale but that's only because Ukraine is a larger military power than Germany and France combined.
   2. Russia's invasion is very cheap, using the oldest equipment and ammunition first for most of the objectives, and sending in last-minute conscripts to do most of the heavy lifting.
      1. That may seem to be causing a failure of objectives but their objectives are probably not to conquer territory but to ruin Ukraine financially and any chance of its independence by occupying more territory in the east and its largest power plants.

So all this being said....

US Propaganda is highly misleading.

Russia is fighting a very different war than the US is used to lately. And because of it we think that "retreat" means collapse and that time means "failure".

It's very likely that Russia is ok with keeping the war perpetual. It prevents Ukraine from being anything more than a ruined dump.

While Russia's real targets are the international monetary order.

The key here is that "China plays all sides"; your words.
Without China, Russia be dog shit!
But it's not the case.
As an assortment of stupid American leaders over the years pushed the Bear into the Dragon's fire.

 

[DarthTrader]

The key here is that "China plays all sides"; your words.
Without China, Russia be dog shit!
But it's not the case.
As an assortment of stupid American leaders over the years pushed the Bear into the Dragon's fire.

What makes you think China is doing charity work for Russia?

China needs oil, China needs food, China needs fertilizer and natural gas, China needs aluminum, steel, nickel, cobalt, lithium. China needs ALL THESE THINGS, that Russia has.

 

[B. Kidd]

What makes you think China is doing charity work for Russia?

China needs oil, China needs food, China needs fertilizer and natural gas, China needs aluminum, steel, nickel, cobalt, lithium. China needs ALL THESE THINGS, that Russia has.

And they are getting all of it at a discount rate, too!

 

[DarthTrader]

And they are getting all of it at a discount rate, too!

I doubt that's actually true. Did you read that on MSNBC? Do you get to see Chinese Communist Party or their subsidiary state-owned Petrol firms' sealed documents that discloses price?

You realize that oil is bought on futures contracts right? And oil is currently in backwardation so maybe that's what people mean by "discount" LOLOLOL

 

[B. Kidd]

I doubt that's actually true. Did you read that on MSNBC? Do you get to see Chinese Communist Party or their subsidiary state-owned Petrol firms' sealed documents that discloses price?

You realize that oil is bought on futures contracts right? And oil is currently in backwardation so maybe that's what people mean by "discount" LOLOLOL

Putin's ego got in his way. He should've originally stuck to conquering the Donbas and a land bridge to Crimea.
But didn't. So now he has to sell Russian treasure to China like it's a goddamned fire sale to stay afloat: no matter what you even say.
Your ego also gets in your way.

 

[BlackSand]

Russia's invasion is very cheap, using the oldest equipment and ammunition first for most of the objectives, and sending in last-minute conscripts to do most of the heavy lifting.

.

This is a point I keep making to my warmongering friends that don't understand not all wars or tactics are "Shock and Awe".

It simple ... Cannon Fodder.
Send in crappy equipment and troops to cement intentions and absorb resources from the opposition.
Set the stage Internationally ... Allow politicians and governments time to start making all kinds of promises and obligations.

Follow it with a request for Peace Talks.
The opposition and their supporters are emboldened and overplay their position with poor Diplomacy.
Suggestions and Conditions are rejected ... And a full-scale operation gets the Green Light.



If you are wondering why a Russian APC is barely operable and out of fuel on the side of the road ...
It's a fucking target, and put there with the hopes of someone shooting a Javelin missile at it.

One less missile the opposition has ... And they were ready to send the vehicle to scrap pile before they ever towed it to Ukraine.

. ​

 

[Bleipriester]

If Russia would be accepted in the western community it would mean the west would have a new second strongest member. And a member that is not a US satellite state. That won´t be accepted and conflicts are the best way to make the Euro sheep rejecting Russia´s bid to join them.

 

[DarthTrader]

.

This is a point I keep making to my warmongering friends that don't understand not all wars or tactics are "Shock and Awe".

It simple ... Cannon Fodder.
Send in crappy equipment and troops to cement intentions and absorb resources from the opposition.
Set the stage Internationally ... Allow politicians and government time to start making all kinds of promises and obligations.

Follow it with a request for Peace Talks.
The opposition and their supporters are emboldened and overplay their position with poor Diplomacy.
Suggestions and Conditions are rejected ... And a full-scale operation gets the Green Light.



If you are wondering why a Russian APC is barely operable and out of fuel on the side of the road ...
It's a fucking target, and put there with the hopes of someone shooting a Javelin missile at it.

One less missile the opposition has ... And they were ready to send the vehicle to scrap pile before they ever towed it to Ukraine.

. ​

This is 100% correct.

And the Russians have been capturing a stockpile of Javelins of their own.

The Russians just walked away from their positions in Kiev. The claim is they lost battlefield effectiveness. Really? How? They set-up a trench and artillery firewall...how on GOD'S GREEN EARTH did Ukraine, with limited resources, damage some 20+ BTGs at greater than 30%, from behind an entrenched, bunkered, artillery-held position.

LOLOL.

 

[DarthTrader]

If Russia would be accepted in the western community it would mean the west would have a new second strongest member. And a member that is not a US satellite state. That won´t be accepted and conflicts are the best way to make the Euro sheep rejecting Russia´s bid to join them.

The problem here is that Russia has always been paranoid of anyone outside of Russia. Which is ironic because it's not a foreigner that ran around with black cloaks on black horses with staves of black-dog's heads and broom sticks, murdering everyone they found for several years killing hundreds of thousands in Ivan the Terrible's "Reign of Terror" just to stoke fear and paranoia.

Look up Oprichniki if you want a pretty shocking understanding of why Russia will likely never become "western".

 

[DarthTrader]

Putin's ego got in his way. He should've originally stuck to conquering the Donbas and a land bridge to Crimea.
But didn't. So now he has to sell Russian treasure to China like it's a goddamned fire sale to stay afloat: no matter what you even say.
Your ego also gets in your way.

I think they needed Kiev to distract or pull pressure from the south. They made HUGE gains in the South while basically just sitting in the north and smashing Kiev and Chernihiv with Artillery.

You're an idiot about Russian "fire sale" there is no fire sale.

 

[B. Kidd]

This is 100% correct.

And the Russians have been capturing a stockpile of Javelins of their own.

The Russians just walked away from their positions in Kiev. The claim is they lost battlefield effectiveness. Really? How? They set-up a trench and artillery firewall...how on GOD'S GREEN EARTH did Ukraine, with limited resources, damage some 20+ BTGs at greater than 30%, from behind an entrenched, bunkered, artillery-held position.

LOLOL.

We'll see how you do in the East.

P.S. You're Generals suck when it comes to offense!
LOL LOL

 

[DarthTrader]

We'll see how you do in the East.

P.S. You're Generals suck when it comes to offense!
LOL LOL

Well yes they do because I'm American and the US has lost every major war since Korea if you can call it "not a loss". And WW2 was won by Russia on the offensive. 650+ German divisions destroyed.

Do you know how many German divisions the US engaged and destroyed?

Engaged: 149
Destroyed: 1.

So Russia did 650x more work than the US lol.

 

[B. Kidd]

I think they needed Kiev to distract or pull pressure from the south. They made HUGE gains in the South while basically just sitting in the north and smashing Kiev and Chernihiv with Artillery.

You're an idiot about Russian "fire sale" there is no fire sale.

You're unable to currently prove me wrong about this!
As one Slavic to another, I recognize Slavic bullshit when I hear it!!

 

[DarthTrader]

You're unable to currently prove me wrong about this!
As one Slavic to another, I recognize Slavic bullshit when I hear it!!

I have a whole thread that proves you wrong. Shows that there is no discount to Ural crude. So therefore, no firesale.

 

[SavannahMann]

Here be the rub. Putin lied about his intentions until after his troops invaded.

That coupled with the propensity since then to lie constantly and consistently makes his invasion unjustified. And unjustifiable.

So death to all Russian soldiers. Death to Russia.

 

[B. Kidd]

I have a whole thread that proves you wrong. Shows that there is no discount to Ural crude. So therefore, no firesale.

America is the home of 'fudged #'s'.

Go ahead and lay some Russian fudge.

 

[B. Kidd]

I think they needed Kiev to distract or pull pressure from the south. They made HUGE gains in the South while basically just sitting in the north and smashing Kiev and Chernihiv with Artillery.

You're an idiot about Russian "fire sale" there is no fire sale.

They made gains almost solely with missile and artillery fire turning cities like Mariupol into shells of their former selves. Yet a 40 mile convoy of troops North of Kiev was turned into scrap iron?
Why was this?
Poor planning on Russia's part failed to create an emergency on the Ukrainians defense of Kiev's part!
Pootie's ego and stoopid Russian generals just got in the way!

 

[Bleipriester]

The problem here is that Russia has always been paranoid of anyone outside of Russia. Which is ironic because it's not a foreigner that ran around with black cloaks on black horses with staves of black-dog's heads and broom sticks, murdering everyone they found for several years killing hundreds of thousands in Ivan the Terrible's "Reign of Terror" just to stoke fear and paranoia.

Look up Oprichniki if you want a pretty shocking understanding of why Russia will likely never become "western".

I heard that Ivan wasn´t that terrible.
However, the Russian history shows clearly they have always struggled to be an European country. For example in the 16. Century "German" districts began to show up in Moscow, with Germans being a term for Europeans.