- Moderator
- #1
There is a poem that summarized this topic (partially quoted here)…
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity…
….And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
It is by Yeates, written after WW1, when the world was still coping with the massive casualties and the Spanish Flu was leveling those who remained. It was a time that saw the disintegration of vast empires that had defined the rules and norms by which nations co-exhisted, the Ottomans, the British, the Russians Among others.
I am wondering if we are now at the cusp of another such turning of the page of history and changing of the world order?
Consider these…
The standoff between Ukraine and Russia is about more than just those two countries. It's about global security and an attempt to "rewrite rules on which the world is based," says Ukraine's minister of foreign affairs.
"If Russia succeeds here in Ukraine, that will send a clear message to everyone who wants to rewrite rules on which the world is based, that this is possible," he told NPR. "That the United States and the democratic coalition led by the United States are incapable to maintain the current world order. That they are weak. And if you behave in a bold, aggressive way, you will eventually succeed."
“Democracy is at stake," he (Meeks) told NPR. "If we allow Vladimir Putin to come into a sovereign territory and threaten its democracy or take its democracy, then we are allowing others to do the same, which in turn, reverberates on us. ... We've got to unite with one message to say that's not going to happen."
After reading this … I was curious … Putin and Xi have become politically quite close. Two autocrats who are eager to show the world that democracy is a failure, their system is better at maintaining “order” and “developement”. They are challenging the established world order led by liberal western democracies that place human rights, individual freedoms, and the rule of law at it’s apex. That led me to look up more on China…what their long view has been, and I found these…
Rule of Law vs. Rule by Law
www.theatlantic.com
In the U.S. and much of the liberal West, the concept of the “rule of law” is vital to a properly functioning society—the idea (at least in theory) that the law is impartial, independent, and applied evenly and consistently to all, and that it serves to protect the innocent, including from the state. China’s leaders, however, follow the concept of the “rule by law,” in which the legal system is a tool used to assure Communist Party dominance; courts are forums for imposing the government’s will. The state can do just about anything it wants, and then find some helpful language in the “laws” to justify it…
…But the American monopoly on rule writing is now facing its stiffest challenge since the fall of the Soviet Union. As China rises in stature, Beijing is promoting its own concepts about global governance, development, and international relations, grasping influence at institutions such as the United Nations to infuse these concepts into global discourse, and using its growing wealth and military might to contest the existing norms of the American world system…
Yet today, China’s paramount leader, Xi Jinping, appears to consider the U.S. system a constraint on Chinese power. For a proud autocracy, the American order can seem an unfriendly, even threatening place, one where liberal political values reign supreme, and the Chinese form of government is perceived as illegitimate, while Chinese companies and officials are vulnerable to foreign sanction and Chinese ambitions are hemmed in. From Xi’s perspective, it is critical that Beijing rewrite the rules to better suit its interests and, more broadly, those of authoritarian states. Simply, Xi intends to flip the global hierarchy, placing illiberal governments and ideals at its apex.
….Xi “wants to dominate the rule of law,” Jerome Cohen, a longtime expert in Chinese law, told me. Xi believes that “you have to have rules that suit the interest of the majority of countries,” and “he sees the Anglo-Americans as being a minority now,” Cohen continued. “That minority should be governed by the autocracies of the world who are amenable to the Chinese point of view.”
This is China’s view of a new world order (the entire article is a good read). It is matched by other illiberal rising autocracies such as and others who place human and individual rights below that of the autocratic state.
www.ft.com
Like Lukyanov, Yan believes that “the US-led world order is fading away . . . In its place will come a multipolar order”. President Xi himself has put it even more succinctly with his often repeated claim that “the east is rising and the west is declining”. For Russia and China, the making of a new world order is not simply a matter of raw power. It is also a battle of ideas. While the western liberal tradition promotes the idea of universal human rights, Russian and Chinese thinkers make the argument that different cultural traditions and “civilisations” should be allowed to develop in different ways.
What also ties into this is a declining support for liberal and democratic values and institutions world wide including in the US. Shoot, even people here support what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs.
I am curious as to what people think…are we exiting a period of global dominance? I think our ideals are good, but it doesn’t help us that out nation has proclaimed them while simultaneously cozying up to bloody dictators. What do you honestly foresee? I wonder if Ukraine is a turning point…? The rule of law vs rule by law?
For definitions, I mean liberal in a broader context, not as in left right politics. These events have been a long time in the making, are not tbe fault of any one president or of left/right ideologies.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity…
….And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
It is by Yeates, written after WW1, when the world was still coping with the massive casualties and the Spanish Flu was leveling those who remained. It was a time that saw the disintegration of vast empires that had defined the rules and norms by which nations co-exhisted, the Ottomans, the British, the Russians Among others.
I am wondering if we are now at the cusp of another such turning of the page of history and changing of the world order?
Consider these…
The standoff between Ukraine and Russia is about more than just those two countries. It's about global security and an attempt to "rewrite rules on which the world is based," says Ukraine's minister of foreign affairs.
"If Russia succeeds here in Ukraine, that will send a clear message to everyone who wants to rewrite rules on which the world is based, that this is possible," he told NPR. "That the United States and the democratic coalition led by the United States are incapable to maintain the current world order. That they are weak. And if you behave in a bold, aggressive way, you will eventually succeed."
“Democracy is at stake," he (Meeks) told NPR. "If we allow Vladimir Putin to come into a sovereign territory and threaten its democracy or take its democracy, then we are allowing others to do the same, which in turn, reverberates on us. ... We've got to unite with one message to say that's not going to happen."
After reading this … I was curious … Putin and Xi have become politically quite close. Two autocrats who are eager to show the world that democracy is a failure, their system is better at maintaining “order” and “developement”. They are challenging the established world order led by liberal western democracies that place human rights, individual freedoms, and the rule of law at it’s apex. That led me to look up more on China…what their long view has been, and I found these…
Rule of Law vs. Rule by Law
China Wants to Rule the World by Controlling the Rules
The American monopoly on international rule-writing is facing its stiffest challenge since the fall of the Soviet Union.
www.theatlantic.com
…But the American monopoly on rule writing is now facing its stiffest challenge since the fall of the Soviet Union. As China rises in stature, Beijing is promoting its own concepts about global governance, development, and international relations, grasping influence at institutions such as the United Nations to infuse these concepts into global discourse, and using its growing wealth and military might to contest the existing norms of the American world system…
Yet today, China’s paramount leader, Xi Jinping, appears to consider the U.S. system a constraint on Chinese power. For a proud autocracy, the American order can seem an unfriendly, even threatening place, one where liberal political values reign supreme, and the Chinese form of government is perceived as illegitimate, while Chinese companies and officials are vulnerable to foreign sanction and Chinese ambitions are hemmed in. From Xi’s perspective, it is critical that Beijing rewrite the rules to better suit its interests and, more broadly, those of authoritarian states. Simply, Xi intends to flip the global hierarchy, placing illiberal governments and ideals at its apex.
….Xi “wants to dominate the rule of law,” Jerome Cohen, a longtime expert in Chinese law, told me. Xi believes that “you have to have rules that suit the interest of the majority of countries,” and “he sees the Anglo-Americans as being a minority now,” Cohen continued. “That minority should be governed by the autocracies of the world who are amenable to the Chinese point of view.”
This is China’s view of a new world order (the entire article is a good read). It is matched by other illiberal rising autocracies such as and others who place human and individual rights below that of the autocratic state.
Russia and China’s plans for a new world order
For Moscow and Beijing, the Ukraine crisis is part of a struggle to reduce American power and make the world safe for autocrats
www.ft.com
What also ties into this is a declining support for liberal and democratic values and institutions world wide including in the US. Shoot, even people here support what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs.
I am curious as to what people think…are we exiting a period of global dominance? I think our ideals are good, but it doesn’t help us that out nation has proclaimed them while simultaneously cozying up to bloody dictators. What do you honestly foresee? I wonder if Ukraine is a turning point…? The rule of law vs rule by law?
For definitions, I mean liberal in a broader context, not as in left right politics. These events have been a long time in the making, are not tbe fault of any one president or of left/right ideologies.
