Turkish PM leaves stage during debate with Peres over Gaza

[Shogun]

Israel has elections coming up too do they not?

Besides isn't it the Islamic mantra to wipe both Israel and Americans off the maps?

Are Islamic nut cases derived from Muslim countries or from Jewish and Christian based cultures?

The last time I looked at the situation it was the Christian base in Europe and America that went into save the Muslims from extermination. It was not the Muslim based cultures that came to the rescue of the Jewish culture. How many Muslim countries are acting to defend Israel? Are there any? If there are name them.

no, read the ACTUAL sources instead of trusting the DavidS types to tell you what was said. If we can agree that there is a difference between JEW and ZIONIST then you might want to pay attention to why palis and iran says ZIONIST and not JEW and why ZIONISTS won't clarify that point. I can fucking QUOTE you the infamous irnania president statement and you will not find mention of wiping JEWS off the map; rather a ZIONISM REGIME. But, if it were up to the Jills and DavidS's you'd never know that.


Why the fuck WOULD a muslim nation defend zionism? Did you expect the fucking Apaches to DEFEND George fucking Custer?


WOW. you people sure are desperate for some validation of your racism, arent you?

Have you ever heard of a Christian Zionist? Or a Muslim Zionist?

Zionism is as central of a philosophy in Judaism as Christ is in Christianity. Without Israel, there is no Judaism.

I have, and they are all wrong to think that a secular, indegenous people living on the land who don't happen to be jewish should roll over and suck your zionist dick just because YOUR goofy ass thinks burning bushs make good real estate agencies. Good fucking lord, YOU people lampoon muslims over the 7 virgins crazy religious beliefs... Yet here your stupid ass is trying to validate zionism.. with dogma.

GOOD JOB, BRAINIAC.



And, you are lying or stupid. Zionism is, by no means, equivalent or a central tenant to being jewish. Hell, THIS is why there are sects of jews who you have to label "self hating" because they disagree with the creation of israel. But hey, who needs facts when you've got your victim costume on?

 

[Shogun]

I do not read much of what DavidS has to say. I found it to be to bias for my taste.

Why wouldn't a Muslim country defend it's neighbors? I mean nutcases are nutcases if you know what I mean.

I read and listened to what the Iranian president had to say. It truly did not impress me. I still think he looks like a rat and there a fairly good reason for that. I watched his crap on Al Jazeer [sic]. I decided for myself at that point he would not be welcome at my house for dinner, but hey that's just me.

Being there is a fairly good portion of American indian in my heritage I know for a fact a few us of Indians worked pretty damn hard at getting along with the white man.

Given the nature of the creation of israel WHY DO YOU THINK? Again, did you REALLY expect native Americans to support George Custer? Fuck no.

And, it's funny how selective your application of "nutcase" is. So, no, a nutcase isn't merely a nutcase if your standard is the zion filter.

LOOKS like a rat? OH, so were judging people based on how they look now? good job, dude. truly. If that is the criteria to have dinner at your house then don't be shocked when no one gives a fuck about your invitation.

And, AGAIN, did you read his fucking statement or did you just assume zionists would tell you the truth without carving up his fucking words. Cry antisemite if you NEED to but the very infamous quote did not say what zionists insist it says.. that is, if you can seperate zionists from jews.

Dude, spare me the whole "indian in my heritage" bullshit. You probably are not also reltated to jesse james, Davey Crocket, a signer of the declaration of independance or anything else. AND, even if you are, that doesn't preclude that your opinon of THIS conflict was validated by your phantom ancestors who, apparently, LOVED the trail of tears and ENJOYED manifest destiny.


again, the length you people will go to rationalize your racism is amazing.

I already told you DavidS is a bit to bias IMHO.

If this is the best you can do to defend a terrorist organization you are losing dude.

Given that I'm the only one of us to be posting evidence you might want to hold off on that observation, tex.

 

[ekrem]

Well yeah it is normal that Turkey wants to have influence in its region, the US does the same and even expands it over the rest of the world. Iraq is under US and Iraqi influence, that is why the US was not happy to have the Turkish army invade Iraq but the US and Turkey are also partners (NATO, ...) and that is the reason the US helped them.

That is too oversimplistic describing the frictions between USA and Turkey during the last years, but at the end of the day the above senteces can stay so.
It is not in our interest to break relations with USA and it is not in US's interest also, that is the reason why we now cooperate on the issue in North-Iraq.

The US would also not appreciate it if Erdogan said something similar about US troops in Iraq, in fact relations between US and Turkey probably already have deteriorated because of Erdogan s behavior towards Israel.

If the relations between both countries are indexed on a third country, then there is something really wrong in that bilateral relation.
I exclude the possibility that USA-Turkey relations are fixed on Israel, no matter how Israel is important for US policy. The US view and interests regarding Turkey occur solely from bilateral aspects. Turkey is too important to be fixed on another country.
User _toomuchtime described how Turkey would distance itself from the "West" and i maybe supported that view by giving examples to the GCC and Iran.
But then again, the African Union does not declare Turkey after China, India, and Japan the 4th strategic cooperation partner in January 2008 and trade ties would not grow.
Turkey's Outreach To Africa

Turkey is opening up to the whole world. The underlying need for this is economical expansion. The consequence of this is exports worth 132 billion $ in 2008, while exports stood at 51 billion $ in 2003:
http://www.dbresearch.de/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?keiYears=all&regionid=REGI0000000000000138&rwdspl=0&rwnode=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD$RSNN0000000000020149&rwobj=kei.Start.class&rwsite=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD
We make year for year export records.

While our GDP in nominal terms has more then doubled since 2003, we also reduced our debt from 79% to 49%.
http://www.dbresearch.de/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?keiYears=all&regionid=REGI0000000000000138&rwdspl=0&rwnode=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD$RSNN0000000000020149&rwobj=kei.Start.class&rwsite=CIB_INTERNET_EN-PROD

That is only in 5 years. That explains also the popularity of Erdogan. And the popularity is not limited to Turkish people, but also to International Capitalism as they do grow with Turkey - in Turkey and by Turkey interacting with different economy zones.

This opening-up is being proceeded independent to the classic friend-foe camps of Cold War area. This is like a physical law, someone expands its influence at the cost of another one's influence.
If this country is also not in the influence of the USA, and thank god we meanwhile are not, then there is off course irritation in the USA. But USA resigned to this fact. We are not the "cold-war" dog of USA anymore, the people in USA know this -if they did not know before - since Turkish parliament vote regarding US invasion in 2003.

Also USA-Turkey trade relations are very minimalistic, USA did see us a long time solely in militaristic-viewmode. The USA does not have much pressuring mediums upon Turkey.
The only pressuring medium USA has is the following two:
1. Sanction of Turkish Airforce needs from US defence industry
2. recognizing the so-called Armenian "genocide"

Both pressuring mediums will have follow-up effects, the relations will not be able to hold.
Therefore those 2 things will never happen, as long as USA has interest in keeping up relations with Turkey.
For how long will USA have interest in keeping relations good with Turkey? For so long USA sees its interest in the outreach of our region.
In cold-war, Turkey was dog of USA on south-eastern flank of NATO against Soviet, Iran under the Shah was US dog in the gulf and from the south of caspian against Soviets.
The USA will avoid any action pushing Turkey into an Iran-style, actively working against USA interests. That may sound arrogant, but we have more tools to harm USA then Iran has. Our nominal GDP is twice big then Iran and Iran's outreach is solely limited to Middle-Eastern things. Turkish outreach stretches from Balkans into Central Asia. In the latter area we are not only involved politicially and economically but also deeply involved in the education systems of those countries raising the Pro-Turkey politicians of tomorrow. Just read this informative post:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/672548-post16.html
If these activities are accomodated with Russia this means big shit for US politicians looking from Wahington via a map over this region. Or for politicians being in the illusion being able to play an "Armenian Card" against Turkey.

And that opening-up brought already a partly accomodation with Russia already.

The trade volume between Turkey and Russia is expected to reach $38 billion this year, up from $27 billion the previous year, according to Turkish estimates,” reported the Turkish Daily News. Turkish investments into the Russian economy amount to $5 billion, and the overall volume of Russian contracts signed by Turkish construction firms is in excess of $25 billion.

http://www.jamestown.org/uploads/media/Torbakov_Russia_Turkey.pdf

The thing is that Turkey and Israel had a good relationship, Erdogan blew it for his own personal agenda (elections) and did not act in the interests of his country (as a good diplomat or politician should do) but in his own interests.

If Erdogan plays such a game, he is in a position to play such games. What does Israel want to do? You said yourself Turkey is Israel's biggest military ally in this region.
I myself do not connect Erdogan's remarks in Davos and dureing whole Gaza crisis to Turkish elections but to geopolitical factors. He is winning the support of the Arab world.
Despite some "newspaper commentators" blackmailing Turkey there is no consequences for Turkey.
If Israel thinks it needs to cancel the relations it is free in doing so, but the geopolitical realities do not allow so and Israel will live with the experience that Erdogan kicked a foot in to Israel's comfort-zone -- and might do this again. There is no real consequences we must fear, if there would be, Erdogan would not make.

actions against Israel will also have its effect on relations that Turkey has with the European Nations

EU is a totally diferent construction site. We interact with Europe for hundreds of years.
Our interaction is infrastructural, economical, geopolitical and security related.
We have a trade volume with EU accounting 100 billion €.
We are EU's 5th biggest markets for exports and generally 5th biggest trade partner of EU and trade grows 8% annualy.
ABGS > 2008-03-19 Türkiye - AB Ticaret Hacmi 100 Milyar Avro Sýnýrýnda
EU's exports into countries by rank:
261 Milliarden €, USA
92 Milliarden €, Switzerland
89 Milliarden €, Russia
71 Milliarden €, China
52 Milliarden €, Turkey

EU-Turkey is a totally different and VERY complex story. It does not fit in to the Israel subject nor will events on the Israel subject will influence EU-Turkey subject.

 

[RodISHI]

Given the nature of the creation of israel WHY DO YOU THINK? Again, did you REALLY expect native Americans to support George Custer? Fuck no.

And, it's funny how selective your application of "nutcase" is. So, no, a nutcase isn't merely a nutcase if your standard is the zion filter.

LOOKS like a rat? OH, so were judging people based on how they look now? good job, dude. truly. If that is the criteria to have dinner at your house then don't be shocked when no one gives a fuck about your invitation.

And, AGAIN, did you read his fucking statement or did you just assume zionists would tell you the truth without carving up his fucking words. Cry antisemite if you NEED to but the very infamous quote did not say what zionists insist it says.. that is, if you can seperate zionists from jews.

Dude, spare me the whole "indian in my heritage" bullshit. You probably are not also reltated to jesse james, Davey Crocket, a signer of the declaration of independance or anything else. AND, even if you are, that doesn't preclude that your opinon of THIS conflict was validated by your phantom ancestors who, apparently, LOVED the trail of tears and ENJOYED manifest destiny.


again, the length you people will go to rationalize your racism is amazing.

I already told you DavidS is a bit to bias IMHO.

If this is the best you can do to defend a terrorist organization you are losing dude.

Given that I'm the only one of us to be posting evidence you might want to hold off on that observation, tex.

Tex beats the heck outta "zionist d......."

I'll see if that clip on the "rat" is still out there.

 

[ekrem]

This is maybe off-topic, but as EU has been mentioned here, you can read here the supporter and anti list of countries within EU regarding Turkish EU accession:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid

In 2010 Spain will for 6 months have the presidency of EU.
The intention of Spain dureing these 6 months is makeing Turkish EU accession irrversible by law.
So Spanish Foreign Minister told Spanish newspaper "El Pais":
Nachrichten Europa
Übersetzte Version von http://www.wienerzeitung.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3857&Alias=wzo&cob=378381

 

[DavidS]

Wrong, Judaism has been around for much longer than an "Israeli" state.

Absolutely incorrect. Israel existed BEFORE the Torah was handed to Moses and the Hebrews became Jews. Israel is as essential to Judaism as the Torah is.

Israel is partly based on religious beliefs, given that, even if they would want too, Arab Moslem cannot convert to Judaism.

Completely incorrect. The existence of ancient Israel is well documented in archeological research. Whether or not you believe G-d exists is irrelevant. We have shekkels dating back thousands of years, menorahs, scripture (dead sea scrolls), tens if not hundreds of thousands of artifacts that proves the existence of ancient Israel under Jewish law.

Besides, if you break a ceasefire by crossing a border in force and killing 6 humans (dont forget that Israels Tunnel raid came before the Hamas rockets) than you cannot expect the other side to do nothing, especially if this other side was elected on promises of "Strength".

Oh so it's okay to smuggle weapons to fire into Israel, but it's not okay for Israel to try and STOP that??? If Hamas wasn't digging tunnels and smuggling weapons into Gaza, then Israel would have no need for tunnel raids! If Hamas decided to live peacefully next to Israel, much like Fatah does in the West Bank, then Israel would have no need to strike them. This is simple: If Hamas stops the violence, Israel will as well. If Hamas keeps fighting, Israel will destroy it once and for all.

 

[toomuchtime_]

This is maybe off-topic, but as EU has been mentioned here, you can read here the supporter and anti list of countries within EU regarding Turkish EU accession:
BBC NEWS | Europe | Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid

In 2010 Spain will for 6 months have the presidency of EU.
The intention of Spain dureing these 6 months is makeing Turkish EU accession irrversible by law.
So Spanish Foreign Minister told Spanish newspaper "El Pais":
Nachrichten Europa
Übersetzte Version von http://www.wienerzeitung.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3857&Alias=wzo&cob=378381

There are certainly some advantages to joining the EU, but the more Turkey is seen as an Islamist nation, despite its claim to be secular, the less likely it is that it will gain entry into the EU. Keep in mind that the EU constitution was sunk partly because some countries wanted to include a phrase that extolled Christianity as an essential value of European culture. Erdogan's antics during the Gaza operation may have played well in the Muslim world but were extravagantly anti Israeli, if not downright anti semitic, by European standards and even when compared to the statements of moderate Arab states. In general, what Hamas applauds, Europe will deplore,and Erdogan has made Turkey very popular among Hamas followers.

 

[RodISHI]

Given the nature of the creation of israel WHY DO YOU THINK? Again, did you REALLY expect native Americans to support George Custer? Fuck no.

And, it's funny how selective your application of "nutcase" is. So, no, a nutcase isn't merely a nutcase if your standard is the zion filter.

LOOKS like a rat? OH, so were judging people based on how they look now? good job, dude. truly. If that is the criteria to have dinner at your house then don't be shocked when no one gives a fuck about your invitation.

And, AGAIN, did you read his fucking statement or did you just assume zionists would tell you the truth without carving up his fucking words. Cry antisemite if you NEED to but the very infamous quote did not say what zionists insist it says.. that is, if you can seperate zionists from jews.

Dude, spare me the whole "indian in my heritage" bullshit. You probably are not also reltated to jesse james, Davey Crocket, a signer of the declaration of independance or anything else. AND, even if you are, that doesn't preclude that your opinon of THIS conflict was validated by your phantom ancestors who, apparently, LOVED the trail of tears and ENJOYED manifest destiny.


again, the length you people will go to rationalize your racism is amazing.

I already told you DavidS is a bit to bias IMHO.

If this is the best you can do to defend a terrorist organization you are losing dude.

Given that I'm the only one of us to be posting evidence you might want to hold off on that observation, tex.

Yup our good buddies in Iran.

Iran's military has test-fired more missiles in the Gulf on the third day of ... said the country would "set on fire" Israel and the US navy .......

Iran does not treat Arabs well either, go after them too! I mean heck if you are looking for equality hit them all while your at it. Why discriminate?

Al Jazeera that Iran was treating its Arab nationals as second-class citizens..... Arab activists have complained about Iranian indifference to their demands and calls for dialogue.They have voiced concerns over the low living standards, and the lack of education and medical services in their community.

October 26, 2005 TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's hard-line president called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and said a new wave of Palestinian attacks will destroy the Jewish state, state-run media reported Wednesday.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also denounced attempts to recognize Israel or normalize relations with it.

11-19-2006 Ayatollah Who Backs Suicide Bombs Aims To Be Iran's Spiritual Leader

These are all nice folks we should all be real supportive of Shogun?

 

[RodISHI]

Erdogan has made Turkey very popular among Hamas followers.

That gives explaination why Israelis would not want Turkey in there?

 

[Annie]

I think Peres had a point: when Turkey invades another country to kill Kurds that do terrorist attacks (not even rockets) in Iraq and Israel invades Gaza (wich isn't even a country or part of one, it is an undefined piece of land) because Israeli cities are being bombarded.

The only reason Turkey acts like this is because of elections and because of his religious muslim voters, he knows that he would have done the same as Israel did because he also did it in the past for attacks that weren't even as threatening as the ones that threatened Israel ( Dozens die in Turkish invasion of Iraq - Telegraph )

When Turkey invaded North-Iraq no civilian was murdered. Check your facts.
Gaza is an area 40 Kilometers of length and 1 million people. Where Turkey invaded was mountaineous area without civilian population where Terrorist bases reside.

Turkey calls them 'rebels', Israel calls them 'Hamas':

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Turkey 'kills 150 Kurdish rebels' (150 killed)

Turkey kills 34 Kurdish fighters in northern Iraq | World news | guardian.co.uk (34 killed)

Warning as Turks kill Kurd militants - World - smh.com.au (79 killed)

 

[Annie]

First of all Turkey was backed by the US ( Global Politician - The Kurdish-American Honeymoon Has Ended ), secondly Turkey and Israel are allies.

You normally don't "insult" your ally on actions it does to defend itself, that is a perfectly good point Peres has made. Israel didn't "insult" Turkey on its actions it did in Iraq. The only reason Turkey had to be angry was its negotiating position that was damaged because of the Israeli invasion in Gaza (but Israel even informed Turkey before it started with the invasion).
Erdogan uses Israel for his personal election, he did not have any other reason because Turkey is Israel's biggest military ally in the region. And Turkey needs Israel as much as Israel needs Turkey for its own interests.

Hello.
The following sentence is not meant to be personal. But the members who interacted with me on the subject through the years, know that USA did oppose any action by Turkey into Iraq vehemently and much hard-ball was being played, putting the relations under the risk of definitive abortion. Those problems are now overcome. The bottom line is our jets fly over North-Iraq, we fire artillery and artillery rockets into North-Iraq and did also intervened with Special Forces in last winter in a limited operation.
USA and Turkey agreed that Turkey will not launch a large-scale invasion, but will stick to forementioned actions. USA as a service of return abolished practice of excrescence of Turkish influence into Iraq and agreed to fulfill Turkish demands, such as abortion of the Kerkük referendum.
The above chapter was a long, agressive and sometimes also hostile way. But we left tthat way behind us.

Comeing to your statement regarding Israel and Turkey being allies:
I never did claim anything else, and of course as a Turkish participant in this forum you do not really have to enlighten me upon that fact. The relations between Israel and Turkey are not connected by persons, but by institutions. So if there are problems on personal level, insitutional cooperation anyway proceeds.
But your assumption that Turkey needs Israel as much as Israel needs Turkey is not true. Israel does only have Turkey in this region and Turkey is not an arbitrarily country, but the most powerfull country around with the biggest economy.
That we buy Israelian military products is no action out of helpnessles but of preference honouring the above mentioned institutional cooperation. Money rules the world, and money smells the same in German or Italian defence industry.
But we do anyway drive a indigenious defence industry policy.

In the 90s Israel did deliver military products of mediocre technological level. The military modernization of Turkish Army in that segment is completed, what Turkey needs is now high-technology products. And that Israel can not deliver the way Turkey wishes. If Turkey in general buys military products, it does not buy the product itself but the technology behind it also. In such way we bought for example the knowledge of the borecannon of the Merkava-4 or Harpy-attack drones. For example the armed version of Heron UAV they do not deliver, if we want to purchase Ofek spy satellite they say we are not allowed to use satellite on their territory.

So we give emphasis on local defence industry and we have made unbelievable progress the last years in that area.
Currently local defence industry supllies Turkish Army with military products by a rate of 47%
Savunma sanayi yerli ihtiyacýmýzýn yüzde 47'sini karþýlýyor - Hürriyet
2006: 36,5 %
2007: 41,5 %
TSK’da yerli silahýn payý artýyor

Currently there are 131 projects still in development phase by SSM
Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - Ana Sayfa

Under those projects are Battle Helicopters, Satellites, Frigates, Corvettes, Main Battle Tanks and so on. The times where Turkey just buys is over. We now have the industrial base and the economic size to go indigenious.

The problem with Davos was with the moderator of that discussion.
As a moderator you do not intervene Turkish Prime Minister because QUOTE: "We have to go to dinner". There is a discussion about war, regional politics and that dumbshit intervenes rehtorically and physically because he is hungry.
That was the part when Turkish Prime Minister stood up and left Davos.

You can here that dialogue in this PODCAST.
http://www.stratfor.com/audio/download/131282/20090130Stratfor_Daily_Podcast-EDITED.mp3
The author of that podcast explains you also why Turkey will dominate the Islamic world again. That may sound arrogant to you, but Turkey is involved in all the things what is going on around here. Maybe CNN does not report about, but the fact stays. We long time stayed passive, a defensive hedgehog benumbing itself with Inner-Turkish problems. Those times are over.
All forecasts in case of Turkey look rosy, especially the economical aspect. That is the base to all other aspirations.

Ok, let's say you are correct, the real problem was the moderation. In which case your prime minister, was remiss in not castigating the moderator, rather taking the hissy fit out on Israel.

I'll say that Turkey is a growing and important regional power, however to think that either the US or Israel is intimidated by Turkish might would be an exercise in hubris.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Erdogan has made Turkey very popular among Hamas followers.

That gives explaination why Israelis would not want Turkey in there?

I'm not sure what you mean. Israel is not a member of the EU so Israel has no say in what countries get in. However, many EU members are already not happy about the prospect of admitting an overwhelmingly Muslim nation and if Turkey comes to be seen as an Islamist nation that will pretty much end its chances of being admitted to the EU.

 

[mightypeon]

Wrong, Judaism has been around for much longer than an "Israeli" state.

Absolutely incorrect. Israel existed BEFORE the Torah was handed to Moses and the Hebrews became Jews. Israel is as essential to Judaism as the Torah is.

Israel is partly based on religious beliefs, given that, even if they would want too, Arab Moslem cannot convert to Judaism.

Completely incorrect. The existence of ancient Israel is well documented in archeological research. Whether or not you believe G-d exists is irrelevant. We have shekkels dating back thousands of years, menorahs, scripture (dead sea scrolls), tens if not hundreds of thousands of artifacts that proves the existence of ancient Israel under Jewish law.

Besides, if you break a ceasefire by crossing a border in force and killing 6 humans (dont forget that Israels Tunnel raid came before the Hamas rockets) than you cannot expect the other side to do nothing, especially if this other side was elected on promises of "Strength".

Oh so it's okay to smuggle weapons to fire into Israel, but it's not okay for Israel to try and STOP that??? If Hamas wasn't digging tunnels and smuggling weapons into Gaza, then Israel would have no need for tunnel raids! If Hamas decided to live peacefully next to Israel, much like Fatah does in the West Bank, then Israel would have no need to strike them. This is simple: If Hamas stops the violence, Israel will as well. If Hamas keeps fighting, Israel will destroy it once and for all.

Bullshit one:
Was the an Israel between lets say 800 AD and 1800 AD? NO!
Where there Jews in the world between 800 and 1800 AD? Hell yes.
Conclusion; Jews can exist without Israel.
Sure, life was not always happy, but live was not always happy for native American Indians, South French Kathars, Celts, and countless of over massacred peoples who also deserve sympathy.

If ancient territorial claims had ANY de jure right, all Europe would be in flames.
I cant think of a country neighbouring Germany on which Germany would have no territorial claims which are much more valid and recent then burning bushes.
I think its the same for France, Poland, Italy or Russia.

Germany, France and Italy all see themselfs as de jure successors of the Roman Empire.
Does that mean they have territitorial claims on Israel?
Btw. you can add Turkey, Greece and Russia also into the mix. You cannot on one side claim a "right by conquest" and on the other side claim a "burning bush" thing.

I do not say that any of these countries should try to invade Israel, I personally dont think that this piece of desert is worth a war anyway, but if you go with the argument "we had it once" you end up with a lot of concurence.

Regarding the "Weapon smuggling" you are aware that putting a Blockade on a "souvereign state" like Gaza is an act of war in itself?
If you accept that Hamas is a souvereign entity (actually, they fullfill most criterias for that) than Israel has, as a souvereign state, the right to enact a Blockade. Just as Gaza has the right to circumvent this blockade, or even break it by military means (which they cant due to uhmm lack of military means). If it is not a souvereign entitiy, than Israel CLEARLY violates the Geneve conventions by Issueing SEVERE Collective punishment on the civilians of Gaza.
Take your pick.

Apart fromt that: If Israel = Former Kanaan, that doesnt the thing belong to the Kanaanites?

 

[toomuchtime_]

no, read the ACTUAL sources instead of trusting the DavidS types to tell you what was said. If we can agree that there is a difference between JEW and ZIONIST then you might want to pay attention to why palis and iran says ZIONIST and not JEW and why ZIONISTS won't clarify that point. I can fucking QUOTE you the infamous irnania president statement and you will not find mention of wiping JEWS off the map; rather a ZIONISM REGIME. But, if it were up to the Jills and DavidS's you'd never know that.


Why the fuck WOULD a muslim nation defend zionism? Did you expect the fucking Apaches to DEFEND George fucking Custer?


WOW. you people sure are desperate for some validation of your racism, arent you?

Have you ever heard of a Christian Zionist? Or a Muslim Zionist?

Zionism is as central of a philosophy in Judaism as Christ is in Christianity. Without Israel, there is no Judaism.

Wrong, Judaism has been around for much longer than an "Israeli" state.
Have you ever heard of a Protestant Muslim? An anabaptist Jew? A Therava Catholic?

For precisly what rational reason should a Moslem support Israel? Israel is partly based on religious beliefs, given that, even if they would want too, Arab Moslem cannot convert to Judaism (A german Joke says: There are only 2 ways to become a Jew, get born as one or if the State says so), they have few choices apart from fleeing (difficult because getting out of Palestine aint exactly easy emmigration wise), trying to adapt (I cannot think of a historical example where something like this happened if the "supressed" side has the demographic equation going for them) or fight.

Do you know why the Zionist landgrab is still contested, while for example the polish "landgrab" (Poland lost more territory to the Soviet Union than it gained from Germany, and the Poles had no say in the matter of the new borders) after WW2 is today unopposed?
A) No Germans left in Poland
B) Todays culture in Germany does not really encourage futile heroic deaths (you got killed? IDIOT!)
C) There were legitimate peace treaties which both sides signed.


Besides, if you break a ceasefire by crossing a border in force and killing 6 humans (dont forget that Israels Tunnel raid came before the Hamas rockets) than you cannot expect the other side to do nothing, especially if this other side was elected on promises of "Strength".

First, anyone can convert to Judaism, but since there is no legal advantage for an Israeli citizen to be Jewish, there is no reason to do so unless you want to.

Second, there was no Zionist landgrab. Land was purchased by Jews during the Ottoman and Mandate periods and after the 1948-1949 war, those Arabs who left and believed they owned property in Israel but did not apply to the Israeli government or the Israeli courts to claim that property, abandoned it, and it would have been considered abandoned if that land had been in Germany or Ramallah or in Israel.

Finally, it is silly to talk about who broke the cease fire first, since Hamas' declared intention to destroy the Jewish state of Israel meant it always intended to break it eventually, so if Israel can be accused of anything, it is of breaking the cease fire at a time that was not optimal for Hamas.

 

[Xenophon]

The Turks are well known in history for their wonderful human rights record.

Yeah, right.

 

[mightypeon]

Its actually better then the Human right record of a number of others.
Considering that the Ottoman Empire usually fought nations with other religions (Christians or Shia Persia) they were relativly civil.

It is well documented that massacres on the Arabs happened during what you claim a "purchase". Deir Yassin anyone?

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imagine how it actually feels for Palestinians who fled before the Terroristic acts of the Irgun to be called Terrorists themselfs.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Its actually better then the Human right record of a number of others.
Considering that the Ottoman Empire usually fought nations with other religions (Christians or Shia Persia) they were relativly civil.

It is well documented that massacres on the Arabs happened during what you claim a "purchase". Deir Yassin anyone?

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imagine how it actually feels for Palestinians who fled before the Terroristic acts of the Irgun to be called Terrorists themselfs.

What may have happened at Deir Yassin remains controversial as the Wikipedia article warns, and while it may titillate many of Israel's critics to contemplate Arabs killed by Israelis, the lesson to be drawn from this story is that what is claimed to have happened here was an isolated incident, if indeed the claims are true, and not a reason for the mass exodus of Arabs before and during the war, since we would expect to see the same volume of literature Israel's critics have created about Deir Yassin to have been created about dozens of other incidents if the Arabs who left had been chased out had bee chased out.

The fact is that stories like the ones circulated about Deir Yassin had been used by Arab leaders ever since the 1920's to instill fear and hatred of Jews into the Arab population in an effort to prevent the League of Nations and then the UN from creating a Jewish state. In any case, whether the Arab who left left out of fear brought on by stories like this or to join the invading armies, the fact that they, with few exception, did not petition the Israeli government or the Israeli courts to claim their property after the war means the properties were abandoned by them.

 

[Munin]

The Turks are well known in history for their wonderful human rights record.

Yeah, right.

Actually good point, what right does Turkey have to speak about others towards Human rights behavior? Turkey still hasn't recognized the armenian genocide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide ), they aren't exactly the example of a country that stands for human rights if they can't even recognize their own genocides. Then there are also numerous of other human rights violations that still happen in Turkey today.

 

[Xenophon]

Its actually better then the Human right record of a number of others.
Considering that the Ottoman Empire usually fought nations with other religions (Christians or Shia Persia) they were relativly civil.

It is well documented that massacres on the Arabs happened during what you claim a "purchase". Deir Yassin anyone?

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imagine how it actually feels for Palestinians who fled before the Terroristic acts of the Irgun to be called Terrorists themselfs.

Google 'Jannisaries' and 'Armenaian genocide' and you will see how wrong you are about the Turks, historically they are one of the worst in history.

"Afterall, who today remembers the Armenians?"...Adolph Hitler, comparing his decree of the final solution to the destruction of nearly 2 million armenians.

 

[mightypeon]

I would suggest you to read History a bit more.

They are hardly "the worst".

The uncontested number 1 would be Germany, its damn hard to beat that genocide (I am talking about Genocides of "others", killing your own people is your own problem). The Japanese tried hard to top that but failed. Still, number 2 goes to the other Axis power.
Next is the a split between the Soviet Union (holodomor, general Gulag System) and the USA (where did all the Indians go?) I would rate the USSR as worse, since their system was more centrally organised.
After that you have the Mongols and Romans, who propably would have killed much more than they did if the world would have been populated more densely.
Turkeys bodycount is propably still below the one of France, Great Britain or Spain, and of the nation that killed more than the Turks only Russia does not daily lecture others about Human rights.

If commiting genocide in the past would remove the legality of advocating Human rights, the most notable remaining Human rights supporter may be Switzerland.