Turkey' Erdogan says Ukraine deserves to be a NATO member

[Silver Cat]

Russian speaking, doesn't imply a Russian ethnicity in e.g. Ukraine or the Baltic states. FSB interrogators in Odessa?

The "ethnicity", especially when we are talking about Russian/Ukrainian difference is quite a fuzzy term. For most of Russians (including Ukrainians) "Ukrainian" ("Borderlander") is more geographic and political term rather than the ethnical. Like "Californian" for Americans.
And yes, there will be political and anti-sabotage cleanings in Odessa after it liberation by the Russian Army.

Nonsense - it was a pure Czarist Russia pogrom - and a Germany didn't even exist then.

Of course Germany already existed.

How many Jewish people from all over Russia migrated into Odessa after and during the pogroms till 1942, I wouldn't know. Pogroms in Odessa - 1821, 1859, 1871, 1881 and 1905.

And the most of Jews survived those pogroms. The absolute majority of the Jews killed in Odessa by Germans, Rumanians and their Ukrainian collaborants had been living in Odessa for many generation.

 

[skye]

The can say all they want...

The Nazis who govern Ukraine right now, can not become a NATO member now.... not in war.

 

[Kruska]

The "ethnicity", especially when we are talking about Russian/Ukrainian difference is quite a fuzzy term. For most of Russians (including Ukrainians) "Ukrainian" ("Borderlander") is more geographic and political term rather than the ethnical. Like "Californian" for Americans.
And yes, there will be political and anti-sabotage cleanings in Odessa after it liberation by the Russian Army.

Aside from those former Polish/Lithuanian controlled areas (for around 400 years) - IMO, there is no such thing as an Ukrainian ethnicity. There are however an Ukrainian language and customs.
As such to define oneself as an Ukrainian seems to be rather a political motivated issue then an ethnic issue.

Of course Germany already existed.

Germany only exists since 1871 and had therefore nothing to do with the czarist pogroms - nor with those instituted in 1881 and 1905. Stalin had murder off already around 4-6 million Ukrainians before Hitler attacked, (how many of those were Jewish - I wouldn't know).

And the most of Jews survived those pogroms. The absolute majority of the Jews killed in Odessa by Germans, Rumanians and their Ukrainian collaborants had been living in Odessa for many generation.

The Odessa issue wasn't about how many Jewish people got murdered by whom - but that 30% of Odessa's population before 1910, due to 5 pogroms, was Jewish.

 

[Kruska]

The can say all they want...

The Nazis who govern Ukraine right now, can not become a NATO member now.... not in war.

They don't need to, since the USA and some other NATO members will work out "individual" guarantees - that will enable those NATO members to get boots on the ground.
And that is exactly what Biden, aka USA and the Goebbels scholar want.

 

[JGalt]

The can say all they want...

The Nazis who govern Ukraine right now, can not become a NATO member now.... not in war.

NATO has turned their back on the little grifter. I guess those folks flying the Uke flags will be taking them down now.

 

[JGalt]

"So it's **** Zelensky now huh?"

"Yall saying, 'Zelensky can't beat Putin, Zelensky ain't no hitta, he just a short *****."

"Imma show y'all... I can start WWIII all by myself."

 

[Silver Cat]

Aside from those former Polish/Lithuanian controlled areas (for around 400 years) - IMO, there is no such thing as an Ukrainian ethnicity. There are however an Ukrainian language and customs.

It mostly depends on your definition of the terms. "Ukrainian languages" are more likely to be local dialects of Russian. Customs? Every village and every region has its own local differences. But the difference between, say, customs of villages in Lvov and Kharkov regions is more significant (or less insignificant) than the difference between Kharkov and Belgorod regions.

As such to define oneself as an Ukrainian seems to be rather a political motivated issue then an ethnic issue.

Political, cultural and sexual deviation (from some point of view). The Russians even use the term "Tarasoperekhod" ("Tarasition") by analogy with "Transperekhod" ("Transition") and popular Ukrainian name Taras. Its more about pretending to be something that you are actually not.

The Odessa issue wasn't about how many Jewish people got murdered by whom - but that 30% of Odessa's population before 1910, due to 5 pogroms, was Jewish.

"Pogrom" never was a "total genocide".

 

[Silver Cat]

They don't need to, since the USA and some other NATO members will work out "individual" guarantees - that will enable those NATO members to get boots on the ground.
And that is exactly what Biden, aka USA and the Goebbels scholar want.

They already have some boots on the ground. But official involvement of other nations will definitely raise the level of violence from "special operation" to "local war" (with direct military attacks against Polish and German military force and industrial infrastructure) or even to "regional war" (with usage of tactical nuclear weapons).

 

[Kruska]

They already have some boots on the ground. But official involvement of other nations will definitely raise the level of violence from "special operation" to "local war" (with direct military attacks against Polish and German military force and industrial infrastructure) or even to "regional war" (with usage of tactical nuclear weapons).

Yes off course NATO has units in Ukraine - already way before the war. That especially NATO SpecOps, medical and logistic personal has been increased in Ukraine is also a fact. But there are no NATO battle groups in Ukraine - so far.

International law is defined solely by the USA and it's affiliates. Therefore even if e.g. Russia or China would protest - nobody would give a shit. As such e.g. Poland is free to send troops into Ukraine. As long as they only fight within Ukraine's internationally defined and acquitted territory - Russia could "personally" define this as a deceleration of war towards Russia, or as an act of war - but it wouldn't be according to international law. "They" would make sure of that.

After all it was Russia that attacked a sovereign country - and not the UAF attacking Russia and occupying Russian territory. !!! - that is what Putin always likes to forget.

Vietnam in 1979 was officially persecuting, disowning and killing Vietnamese people of Chinese heritage in Vietnam - resulting in a Boat-People II issue with an estimated 800,000 refugees. Additionally Vietnam attacked an official ally of China - right onto occupying it's capital - and until today the West claims that China attacked Vietnam !!! - and no one gives a shit about the reasons nor the factual occurrences.

Yes Putin could retaliate with e.g. nuclear strikes onto Ukrainian territory - without thereby declaring a war against e.g. Poland or constituting a war towards Poland - due to Polish troops fighting in Ukraine, and even without e.g. Polish troops fighting there - if Putin would launch an attack onto Poland - it would constitute the basis for NATO's article 5. As such IMO Putin will NEVER use nukes against a NATO members territory, nor attack NATO territory even conventionally. And NATO knows this very well.

And that is why NATO will have to enforce a peace-treaty onto Ukraine - otherwise they can't get Ukraine into NATO and the Goebbels scholar dream will never come true - and Putin knows that very well. As such he will cling onto as much Ukrainian territory as possible. How much he can and want's to spend/afford to cling onto territory - only he knows.

So the only question to me now is:
Will Ukraine be able to "liberate" occupied territory before acquitting towards a peace-treaty, based onto their own military, or will some NATO states send in conventional troops to aid in this quest. And IMO, those stupid and spineless NATO *****, should have done that already in Feb. 2022. After-all, they NATO and Ukraine wanting to become a NATO member, caused this war in the first place.

 

[Kruska]

NATO has turned their back on the little grifter. I guess those folks flying the Uke flags will be taking them down now.



View attachment 803686

I wish there had been a bomb - to take out all these useless politicians - exception being the Goebbels scholar - at least that guy got balls.
That he got played all the way, as the political novice that he is - is understood.

 

[Silver Cat]

Yes off course NATO has units in Ukraine - already way before the war. That especially NATO SpecOps, medical and logistic personal has been increased in Ukraine is also a fact. But there are no NATO battle groups in Ukraine - so far.

International law is defined solely by the USA and it's affiliates. Therefore even if e.g. Russia or China would protest - nobody would give a shit. As such e.g. Poland is free to send troops into Ukraine. As long as they only fight within Ukraine's internationally defined and acquitted territory - Russia could "personally" define this as a deceleration of war towards Russia, or as an act of war - but it wouldn't be according to international law. "They" would make sure of that.

After all it was Russia that attacked a sovereign country - and not the UAF attacking Russia and occupying Russian territory. !!! - that is what Putin always likes to forget.

Vietnam in 1979 was officially persecuting, disowning and killing Vietnamese people of Chinese heritage in Vietnam - resulting in a Boat-People II issue with an estimated 800,000 refugees. Additionally Vietnam attacked an official ally of China - right onto occupying it's capital - and until today the West claims that China attacked Vietnam !!! - and no one gives a shit about the reasons nor the factual occurrences.

Yes Putin could retaliate with e.g. nuclear strikes onto Ukrainian territory - without thereby declaring a war against e.g. Poland or constituting a war towards Poland - due to Polish troops fighting in Ukraine, and even without e.g. Polish troops fighting there - if Putin would launch an attack onto Poland - it would constitute the basis for NATO's article 5. As such IMO Putin will NEVER use nukes against a NATO members territory, nor attack NATO territory even conventionally. And NATO knows this very well.

And that is why NATO will have to enforce a peace-treaty onto Ukraine - otherwise they can't get Ukraine into NATO and the Goebbels scholar dream will never come true - and Putin knows that very well. As such he will cling onto as much Ukrainian territory as possible. How much he can and want's to spend/afford to cling onto territory - only he knows.

So the only question to me now is:
Will Ukraine be able to "liberate" occupied territory before acquitting towards a peace-treaty, based onto their own military, or will some NATO states send in conventional troops to aid in this quest. And IMO, those stupid and spineless NATO *****, should have done that already in Feb. 2022. After-all, they NATO and Ukraine wanting to become a NATO member, caused this war in the first place.

Actually, if Poland officially joins the Ukrainian conflict, than the territory of Poland became the territory of the "local war", too, and the Russians will attack all Polish military and industrial targets by conventional weapons.

 

[JGalt]

I wish there had been a bomb - to take out all these useless politicians - exception being the Goebbels scholar - at least that guy got balls.
That he got played all the way, as the political novice that he is - is understood.

Well that would have been a "grab some popcorn" event, for sure.

 

[ESay]

So no Russian military expansion under Putin - thanks
However a huge military expansion under NATO

Yeah, but when they failed in that soft expansion, they switched to their more natural way.

Little Finland has been able to do it for 80 years! so has Sweden, Switzerland and Austria. Even without NATO assurances!!
Ukraine (45 million people) did nothing in regards to strengthening it's own military from 1990 - 2015. (25 years!!) Even though it was cristal clear that Russia sooner or later would counter/refute the Ukrainian territory claim. That is why I do not have any sympathy for Ukraine. Useless and corrupt politicians and society - waiting for Russian handouts, right until today, with the Goebbels scholar now waiting for EU and NATO handouts. (especially AFTER provoking the Russian attack)

Your comparison with other countries has no meaning. Different places, different times, different history etc. It is not even oranges with apples.

I don't persuade you to love Ukraine. I agree with your part about useless and corrupt politicians and society. It is Ukrainian society as a whole is guilty of Ukraine becoming a corrupted and economically ineffective .. (do you want me to use this word? okay) shithole. With ineffective army (though, I should admit it had transformed in the past 8 years), appalling law enforcement and judicial system and so on.

I will tell you even more. Before the war, I was sure that the West and Russia would find some agreement and Ukraine would get back under Russian sphere again.

The Rep.of Korea (incl. US military stationed in S-Korea) was already established before N-Korea attacked, wanting to reunite the country under their communist rule. And it is a fact that today's N-Korea is neutral - whilst S.Korea is not. It is the USA that doesn't want to give up it's Geo-strategic position in S-Korea. Taking S-Korea's population and GDP into account - they are way able, to defend themselves successfully against any N-Korean military attempt

Neutral? Okay, let's call it neutral. With insane regime and nuclear weapons and missile program, threatening its neighbours.

You are turning in circles again - Ukraine want's to be a NATO and EU member (desperately) $$$$$, and this is what brought about this war and made Putin to occupy Crimea and support the separatists in Donbas/Luhansk

Yes, and I repeat that again. This war was caused by Russian expansionist policy that started centuries ago with the claim of 'gathering of Russian lands'.

 

[JimH52]

Yeah, but when they failed in that soft expansion, they switched to their more natural way.



Your comparison with other countries has no meaning. Different places, different times, different history etc. It is not even oranges with apples.

I don't persuade you to love Ukraine. I agree with your part about useless and corrupt politicians and society. It is Ukrainian society as a whole is guilty of Ukraine becoming a corrupted and economically ineffective .. (do you want me to use this word? okay) shithole. With ineffective army (though, I should admit it had transformed in the past 8 years), appalling law enforcement and judicial system and so on.

I will tell you even more. Before the war, I was sure that the West and Russia would find some agreement and Ukraine would get back under Russian sphere again.


Neutral? Okay, let's call it neutral. With insane regime and nuclear weapons and missile program, threatening its neighbours.



Yes, and I repeat that again. This war was caused by Russian expansionist policy that started centuries ago with the claim of 'gathering of Russian lands'.

Poootin has turned Russia into a Pariah state. It will take generations to restore Russia to it's place in the world order.

 

[skye]

No Zelensky!

 

[Litwin]

Russian

“Putin instructed to create year-round resorts on the five seas of the Russian Federation and on Lake Baikal by 2030As Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Chernyshenko noted, within the framework of the national project "Tourism and Hospitality Industry" it is planned to create resorts in the Baltic, Azov, Black, Caspian and Japanese seas and on Lake Baikal, to build at least 44 thousand hotel rooms in new Russian resorts.The key goal of the project should be at least 140 million domestic tours, Chernyshenko stressed”Small problem:China has being buying up all the property around the lake for the last decade, it has it’s eyes on using Lake Baikal as a water resource into northern China to feed Beijing, which has less water resources than Saudi Arabia.

 

[Kruska]

Yes, and I repeat that again. This war was caused by Russian expansionist policy that started centuries ago with the claim of 'gathering of Russian lands'.

And I will repeat it again too: Neither the Russian Federation nor Putin went for a land grab or projected unprovoked military aggression towards any neighbor from 1990 to 2014.
Putin took his chance to take Crimea - before Ukraine would become a NATO member - he also calculated right, that this would inadvertently impact Ukraine's accession to NATO.

I am not saying that Putin was right to take back Crimea - that would be the UN's decision, or respectively enforcing a free peoples referendum.

Putin then took advantage of the separatist movement in Donbas and Luhansk - again calculating correctly - that this would inadvertently impact Ukraine's accession to NATO.

Upon the election with the Goebbels scholar securing the presidency and both sides disrespecting the previous Minsk I and II accords, and an expansionist US democrat holding the US presidency, Putin realized that the imminent NATO membership was lurking just around the corner. So he took a gamble in regards to initiating a political coup via a military attack - which obviously failed. The strength of his military force clearly (at least to me) demonstrates that Putin never intended to occupy Ukraine as a whole - but to simply get a pro-Russian government installed in Kiev - whilst assuring a land link between Russia and Crimea. That in turn would hinder Ukraine's and NATO's unification ambitions.

It is ONLY and was always ONLY about NATO's relentless Eastward expansion and commitment towards relentless wars since 1990. NATO since 1990 had clearly lost it's defensive character and ideals - and was fully operating in regards to control/occupy further territories aka countries. In fact the most powerful and aggressive military/political alliance since WWII until today.

Latest since 1989 the formula is: NATO against the rest of the World or if you prefer, NATO controlling and dictating the World what to do.
Do you actually realize - as much as I hate to say it, that aside from Jimmy Carter, Trump was the only US president since WWII - who did not emphasize onto using NATO military projection onto the world.

Since you continue to refute these obvious facts - I agree with you that a further discussion wouldn't make sense.

 

[Silver Cat]

“Putin instructed to create year-round resorts on the five seas of the Russian Federation and on Lake Baikal by 2030As Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Chernyshenko noted, within the framework of the national project "Tourism and Hospitality Industry" it is planned to create resorts in the Baltic, Azov, Black, Caspian and Japanese seas and on Lake Baikal, to build at least 44 thousand hotel rooms in new Russian resorts.The key goal of the project should be at least 140 million domestic tours, Chernyshenko stressed”Small problem:China has being buying up all the property around the lake for the last decade, it has it’s eyes on using Lake Baikal as a water resource into northern China to feed Beijing, which has less water resources than Saudi Arabia.

Actually, the Russians are buying much more property in China (especially in its rich coastal and southern regions).

 

[Silver Cat]

Poootin has turned Russia into a Pariah state. It will take generations to restore Russia to it's place in the world order.

It depends on your definition of the term "its place". Clearly, the Russians don't want to "restore their place" of victim in 'Pax Americana'. Back in 2013 they proclaimed that "All our problems are because we are not Orcs anymore! "

 

[toomuchtime_]

It depends on your definition of the term "its place". Clearly, the Russians don't want to "restore their place" of victim in 'Pax Americana'. Back in 2013 they proclaimed that "All our problems are because we are not Orcs anymore! "

The Russians may not think they are orcs anymore, but the rest of the world has concluded they still are, and while you may be happy that Russia is no longer part of the civilized world, Putin is alternately raging and whining that Russia cannot sell its grain or fertilizer because banks, including Chinese banks, will not facilitate the sales and the shipments cannot be insured. Clearly, Russia will not have commercial access to most of the world until many years, perhaps generations, after it withdraws from Ukraine.